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Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6125782)
This has got to be a terminology problem since few are following my impeccable logic!:)
There's the superbeasts, which naturally includes Chipcom, as he was previously decorated with super powers a while back, who travel 25 miles on their bikes to their jobs, and then there's nerdy dudes like me and Pee Wee Herman who hop on their fancy bikes complete with windmills and tassles hangin' out the ends of the handlebar grips, riding down short MUP trails to their jobs. I presuppose most are like me but many say otherwise. I guess it's possible that there are so few of us in total that a goodly percentage are like Superchip. I dismissed it earlier. Perhaps I'm talking about Utility bikes. Not really sure. But the bike category the OP was discussing is well equipped old style Dutch bikes. Great for short to modest commutes or errands, while wearing everyday clothes. My bike, for the most part takes on the function of a car (even though I own two of them they are generally used by my wife and my kids). Regardless, the OP's post is a good one and I enjoy his website. His list of bikes is of great interest to me, in that if these kind of bikes catch on we could make a dent in this car-centric world of ours. I can't imagine many Pee Wee Herman types like me gettng on board Chipcom's style of commuter bikes to go 25 miles to work. Yet, I can imagine lots of everyday folks getting off their fat arses in everyday clothes and getting on a Breezer style bikes and tooling around, doing small tasks and losing some weight. Yeah, I know most say get a bike like that out of the dumpster for this, but not me. There are plenty of safe neighborhoods in which you can park a bike and go in a store and come back out to your bike, assuming you locked it in a nominal way. These bikes are lots of fun. BTW, Chip, I had a heck of a ride in today. Rocky River was over its banks in spots and the road was closed due to the river flood. As you know, there's been lots of rain lately. Yet there was a fresh coat of snow and ice on everything. I rode the MUP and enjoyed the snow crunching under my studs untill I noted that I was riding through some puddles right into a raging river! I turned around and went on the road for that part of the ride. Later, on another section of the MUP where the road was also closed, I wondered why it was since there wasn't much water blocking it. That's when my bike started bouncing--the MUP and road, it turns out, were covered with sand and muck, all formed in wavy ridges, that were an inch or two high. This went on for a while. It was kind of awesome. It's amazing how much water (and sand, twigs, and the like) goes down a river. Your last paragraph reminds us all that every day is a great day to ride. I am still interested in whether anybody actually sees people riding these bikes. I love 'em, but I still can't help but wonder whether people are buying them. I never see these kinds of bikes being ridden in my city (Lexington, Ky.) ... |
Originally Posted by toddvc
(Post 6128849)
I think you captured the spirit of my page quite well, and thanks very much for the kind words! I saw Breezer in your sigline -- I am a Breezer fan as well.
Your last paragraph reminds us all that every day is a great day to ride. I am still interested in whether anybody actually sees people riding these bikes. I love 'em, but I still can't help but wonder whether people are buying them. I never see these kinds of bikes being ridden in my city (Lexington, Ky.) ... |
Originally Posted by DerekU2
(Post 6126017)
I'm all for being a contrarian, but let it go. When someone says "commuter bike" you instantly get an image in your head and it isn't of your Dura Ace Equipped, Titanium, Seven. Yes, you're free to commute on whatever you like and it may even work better for you than a "commuter bike".
The fact is that "commuter" is a category of bike that is manufactured just as "racing bike" and "touring bike" are categories. That's not to say those bikes are only good at those tasks or that you must have those bikes to perform those tasks. Sheesh. So forgive me if my image of a "commuter" bike didn't include bikes that I see almost no one actually commute on. :) Prior to this thread I didn't even realize there was a category bikes known as "commuter" bikes so I had no instant image. I've heard of hybrids and city bikes which sort of overlap in my mind. The mental image I would have had might actually been of a fixie since that's what I see a lot of people riding around town. There are 3 people I actually know who have Dutch style cruisers. Two bought them for their retro/Euro appeal and rarely ride them (even though one lives less than 2 miles from where he works). The 3rd does commute once in a while but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the appearance of the bike that appealed to her vs. the inherent utility of the style. The "regular clothes" thing for me has nothing to do with the style of bike. Whether or not I wear regular clothes on my commute depends on how far I'm going, the temp, if I'm going to have an opportunity to change, and whether or not I want the commute to double as a work out. It doesn't matter whether I choose to ride my mountain bike or road bike. I have the option of shortening by commute by taking the train part of the way. When I do that, I usually wear regular clothes. Partially rolling up my pants or putting a little strap around the bottom keeps them clean and out of the chain. I do understand the appeal of bikes like the Breezer that has fenders, lights and a rack right out of the box, but I would imagine that a salesman at an LBS that didn't sell "commuter" bikes could still manage to hook someone up with a bike and accessories that would work as well if not better. Even if an LBS does have "commuter" bikes, I would hope that if someone asked for a bike they could commute one, the salesperson wouldn't just point to these bikes and leave it at that. |
Originally Posted by JusticeZero
(Post 6128538)
Someone grumbled about upright riding position being "hard on the back". I'm just not seeing it. I rode my freaking 36" unicycle all over the place when I was in college, and my back always felt great afterward, better than after a ride on my utility MTB. Let's see, that's a cycle with no suspension, no frame flex possible, with a perfectly upright riding position in which you -cannot- come out of the saddle if you expect to remain above the cycle. Sorry, not buying that people will have back trouble just because their crank is forward.
To me it's just kind of odd that on a bicycle we associate an upright position with comfort. Think about how people sit when they're not on a bike. If somebody has to sit on a stool or bench (something without back support) for any length of time, what to they often do? If there's a table or bar in front of them, they'll lean forward and rest on their arms! Even if there's no table many people will lean forward with their elbows in their laps to help hold their back and head up. Even if there is back support, most will shift around unless fairly well reclined. Watch how people sit at a stadium. You won't find many that sit in the same position all the time. Sometimes, they'll lean back. Sometimes they'll sit bolt upright. Sometimes, they'll lean forward. That's what's nice about a bike with drops. You can rest the various muscles used to hold your torso and head up by changing your position. Sure there are also aerodynamic benefits if you set the bars low and lean more forward, but you don't have to do that. It's just simple geometry. A triangular shape can support weight more easily than a pole that's straight up and down. On a bike where you're leaning forward, your arms/hands and butt make up the two bottom corners of the triangle and your head is at the top. |
I tore up my lower back in high school. If I ride a bike with a completely upright position it results in quite a bit of pain in my lower back.
The bizarre thing is that my saddle to bar drop is fairly large on my fixed gear road bike and my CF tarmac. I find them quite comfortable. I do stretch daily to keep my back somewhat limber. Even my MTB has the bars a tad lower than the seat. As for the comment about riding a unicyle in college, I am assuming that poster was at most in his early 20s. I did quite a few things to my body back in my early 20s that it can no longer stand now that I am in my 30s. I am assuming this will continue to change as I age. |
Interesting perspectives on comfort.
I think the road bike, which makes you reach more for the handlebars, lends itself to a more athletic posture and more muscular pedaling. But it does that while you're more bent over, which produces pressure points on the body. I think the comfort bike and moreso the Dutch style bikes posture is more natural, although it also has pressure points. I suspect the back and hand pain issue is different for everybody. I don't think you can say one bike posture leads to more issues than another. This is from Donnamb, who I haven't seen post lately. Hope she's ok.
Originally Posted by donnamb
(Post 5873399)
Behold this nifty diagram shamelessly lifted from tfahrner's blog.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...r/bikefits.png |
Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6129628)
Interesting perspectives on comfort.
I think the road bike, which makes you reach more for the handlebars, lends itself to a more athletic posture and more muscular pedaling. But it does that while you're more bent over, which produces pressure points on the body. I think the comfort bike and moreso the Dutch style bikes posture is more natural, although it also has pressure points. I suspect the back and hand pain issue is different for everybody. I don't think you can say one bike posture leads to more issues than another. This is from Donnamb, who I haven't seen post lately. Hope she's ok. IMO, for riding around town for modest distances, the more upright posture is more comfortable and appropriate. That said, the more athletic road bike and even the mountain bike position is better suited for longer distances to get more power behind each stroke while reducing your wind exposure. I guess I don't know how you decide which position is more "natural" Here's a picture of people sitting on a floor. It's not the greatest pic and while some of the kids might be sitting up straight, many are resting on their elbows. Both adults seem to be using their arms to support their weight to some degree. http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Public...9/bm030917.jpg I guess as child I heard the admonishment "sit up straight" enough to think of "sitting up" more of as an idealised posture than a natural one. |
I commute on a fixedgear cyclocross bike... the same one I race on. In fact, since I live in SF, and are able to get around by bike I almost never use anything else. All these years I thought I could use one bike for racing, training, and commuting. Now I see that I was wrong. I guess I'm going to need a new "special" bike for commuting.
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Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6129628)
IMO, for riding around town for modest distances, the more upright posture is more comfortable and appropriate.
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Originally Posted by JeffS
(Post 6131016)
Appropriate... that's a word to describe how you should sit in kindergarten.
By appropriate I mean that that posture gives you a better vantage point of the traffic and terrain. |
Too bad you don't live nearby so the next time I'm comfortably riding my bike with my inappropriate posture I could give you an equally inappropriate hand gesture as I speed past.
I'm not sure if it was just a poor choice of words, or more of the same judgment we've seen throughout this thread. |
Originally Posted by JeffS
(Post 6131246)
Too bad you don't live nearby so the next time I'm comfortably riding my bike with my inappropriate posture I could give you an equally inappropriate hand gesture as I speed past.
I'm not sure if it was just a poor choice of words, or more of the same judgment we've seen throughout this thread. |
he's not a roll model.
. . . . wait . . . ;p |
Originally Posted by thdave
(Post 6131104)
It is--it can be used for several purposes (lots of words are like that)! :)
By appropriate I mean that that posture gives you a better vantage point of the traffic and terrain. The line of sight may be marginally higher, but I don't know that that is always better. In any case, I feel like I'm up pretty high on my road bike. Even in the drops my head is up higher than the heads of people in cars (though not SUVs). |
Originally Posted by DataJunkie
(Post 6129409)
I tore up my lower back in high school. If I ride a bike with a completely upright position it results in quite a bit of pain in my lower back.
The bizarre thing is that my saddle to bar drop is fairly large on my fixed gear road bike and my CF tarmac. I find them quite comfortable. I do stretch daily to keep my back somewhat limber. Even my MTB has the bars a tad lower than the seat. As for the comment about riding a unicyle in college, I am assuming that poster was at most in his early 20s. I did quite a few things to my body back in my early 20s that it can no longer stand now that I am in my 30s. I am assuming this will continue to change as I age. If someone's comfortable on a dutch style cruiser for their commute then I'm not going to try to tell them they're not. Likewise, I'm skeptical of any claim that an upright position is the most comfortable one for short commutes, or any commute. It may be fine for most people, but I don't know if it's the best, or that any single position is the best. |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 6128963)
Think about how people sit when they're not on a bike. If somebody has to sit on a stool or bench (something without back support) for any length of time, what to they often do?
If there's a table or bar in front of them, they'll lean forward and rest on their arms! Even if there's no table many people will lean forward with their elbows in their laps to help hold their back and head up. Even if there is back support, most will shift around unless fairly well reclined. Watch how people sit at a stadium. You won't find many that sit in the same position all the time. Sometimes, they'll lean back. Sometimes they'll sit bolt upright. Sometimes, they'll lean forward. That's what's nice about a bike with drops. You can rest the various muscles used to hold your torso and head up by changing your position.
Originally Posted by donnamb
(Post 5873399)
Yes and no. I think they achieve a similar objective, but not quite in the same way. Behold this nifty diagram shamelessly lifted from tfahrner's blog.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...r/bikefits.png |
Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6133013)
You ever see anyone sit for any length of time at a table, at a bar, at a stadium, on the floor or anywhere else who was looking forward (and not gazing at the floor), who used a bent over posture (with associated back and neck angles) even close to the position presented in this diagram for Road race riding?
That position really isn't a racing position either, unless one is racing on the hoods. |
I sit like that at my desk.
Aerodynamics is very important for ETL coding and design! |
To all you Dutch bicycle enthusiasts/geniuses out there who have hijacked the term “commuter bike”. There is no way in 100 years you would want to ride one of those things 20+ miles into a stiff Illinois wind on a limestone trail (and yes some of us do this some of the time). Nor would you want to lug a 40+ lb bike up a train platform and onto a commuter train. So stop telling me what to ride.
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 6128963)
To me it's just kind of odd that on a bicycle we associate an upright position with comfort.
As noted though, I had no trouble with a unicycle for afternoon rides all around town. It is true that a recent trend in touring unicycling has been toward the addition of bars, but those are used mainly for control and as a mounting point for cycling computers, lights, brakes, and the like. DataJunkie: I'm in my 30's, and I only in the past year got out of the college in question, as I was returning to academia persuing an advanced degree. |
Originally Posted by iltb-2
(Post 6133013)
You ever see anyone sit for any length of time at a table, at a bar, at a stadium, on the floor or anywhere else who was looking forward (and not gazing at the floor), who used a bent over posture (with associated back and neck angles) even close to the position presented in this diagram for Road race riding?
As I've said before, but maybe not quite this way: - Racing bikes often have drop bars, but not all bikes with drop bars are racing bikes. - Not all bikes with drop bars have them set lower than the seat. - Not all bikes with drop bars are made from exotic materials like titanium or carbon fiber - Many, perhaps most, bikes with drop bars have eyelets for a rear rack - Most bikes with drop bars can be fitted with fenders - Some bikes with drop bars even come with fenders - Some bikes with drop bars can take wider tires - Some bikes with drop bars have disc brakes - Low maintenance SS or FG bikes with drop bars are very popular with certain commuters I'm not saying everybody should commute with a drop-bar road bike. I'm just saying that I don't see anything about a dutch style bike that makes it inherently better for commuting than a hybrid, a road bike, or a mountain bike as long a they are equipped and adjusted to the commuter's satisfaction. |
thdave - Donna is fine.
Being that I work in a shop that caters specifically to those who commute I can tell you that the bikes people use are as different as the people who ride them. These are the bikes I use for commuting... http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/7500mxb.jpg '99 Trek 7500 - 16 speed http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/kuwie3spd5.jpg '87 Kuwahara Cascade 3 speed conversion http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikep...s/kuwiefix.jpg '87 Kuwahara Cascade fixed gear conversion http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/bridgette5.jpg 1962 Peugeot fixed gear conversion The Kuwaharas get used for foul weather commuting and the 3 speed is my primary winter bike. The Trek is fast on the road and allows me to take the MUTS and trails as do the converted mtb's. The Peugeot logs the most mileage of any of my bikes as she is my spring - fall commuter. |
Originally Posted by JusticeZero
(Post 6133926)
I do not associate a vertical position with 'comfort' so much as I associate having any significant weight on my hands for the majority of my ride with DIScomfort. I've tried a number of things to try to remedy this, and recently injured my hand; it looks like i'm going to need to go to something with a fully upright position or a recumbent... Since I live in Alaska, i'll likely need both.
As noted though, I had no trouble with a unicycle for afternoon rides all around town. It is true that a recent trend in touring unicycling has been toward the addition of bars, but those are used mainly for control and as a mounting point for cycling computers, lights, brakes, and the like. DataJunkie: I'm in my 30's, and I only in the past year got out of the college in question, as I was returning to academia persuing an advanced degree. Um....congratulations? I think the only things that have been proven in this thread is that commuters can bicker like roadies and more importantly that everyone is different. There is no universal solution to every commute. Meaning that one can ride anything from a road bike to a heavy dutch style commuter depending upon their preferences. Anyone who says that any particular bike is not suited to any form of a commute is sadly mistaken. |
1 No, but several shops in the area are.
2 Yes - I have been riding one for eight years and about 15,000 miles. I see increasing numbers of them around, mostly Breezers. 3 No. Road congestion is getting worse every year, and parking spots are getting scarcer. As long as people keep clogging up the roads with idling cars, there will be a need for these bikes. Paul |
This trend to produce more "city" bikes is actually quite appealing as for a time, one could quite easily buy a mountain bike or a road bike here but there were few choices available for those who's riding was primarily urban.
At our shop, the demand for old cruisers was and still is off the scale (we restore and recycle older bikes) as many see these as the ultimate vehicle for meeting their urban transportation needs. They don't want to race, they aren't going off road, and comfort and utility are the highest priorities... I even find than many younger folks prefer these over any other kind of bike. |
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