Hi, some of you might have seen my thread on modifying my existing claud butler urban 400 into an upright commuter (no more than 6miles). After including the cost of a new gearing system to replace the damaged one on there right now, it looks like I will be spending over £150. Seems a lot for a bike which was only £350 t start with.

Plus I am unsure as to whether the geometry of it is particularly suited to an upright posture. I've had an attraction to steel for a while now and started browsing Velorution's site and came across the Azor (opa/ama/toronto) or the retrovelo. All kitted up, the Azor will cost me approx £700 (8 speed nexus, rack, marathons) and the retrovelo will be £1000 (8 speed nexus premium/red band, no racks included). Any advice on one over the other? I gather the retrovelo is lighter which might be better for an underweight male like me trying his 1st steel bike. Size is also an issue since I am only 5 foot 6.5inches and Dutch people tend to be tall, hence me thinking I might have to get a female frame. From what I've read, most people in mainland Europe consider the wsd frames to be unisex anyway.

I need a fully upright seating for preference and back/neck issues. I will use a good springy saddle to make sure too many shocks aren't transmitted into the spine as a consequence.

Thanks

P.S. I will be carrying 5kg/9LB worth of locks around with me too!

I love those bikes, and I dig the attraction, but I am not spending that much jack. I may build up something very much like it some day, but I won't pay that kind of money for the finished product. For now I've got an old Cannondale MTB with a brooks and a stem extender and Velo Orange type bars on it. I've got a very upright posture and it's very comfy for my 14.5 mile commute. It will have to do.

Thanks for the insight. If I had a steel framed bike I might try the same. I got an alluminium bike and could do something similar, but it needs the gearing changed too, and why spend so much on an old bike when I can get a new one which actually fits me. The Claud butler frame is way too big for me.

My only experience is with the Retrovelo and Velorbis.

The Retrovelo is a very nice bike. Everything about it has a quality feel. The Velorbis, on the other hand, is a POS by comparison - some nice components bolted to one of the poorest made frames I've ever seen.

If you like the style, and have the cash, you won't be disappointed with the Retrovelo.

Well, I feel like I have the cash. I just returned a Birdy Rohloff so instead of spending £2100 I spend £1000.
It would be nice if the Azor was a better ride/make than the Retrovelo so I can save £300. I will test ride both and decide which feels better.

Just out of interest, did you find the Retrovelo to be light or heavy? I know it's steel so it's going to be heavy compared to an alluminium frame.

It's my wife's bike so I guess I've never paid much attention.

It's certainly heavier than the bikes I'm used to riding, but it's lighter than the Velorbis, and lighter than the Electra Amsterdam I carry my daughter on. Both have larger frames though.

I did carry it 1/4 mile in its shipping box from the Amtrak station to the car when I picked it up, so I guess it wasn't boat-anchor heavy.

Thanks. Sounds like it is definitely lighter than the Azor at any rate. I'm guessing it will be nippier than that too. My uncle is going to test ride them both tomorrow for me, and hopefully I can get some time off work on Monday to do so too.

Keep any advice/comments coming if anyone has any.

What's wrong with the Velorbis? POS and "poorest made" don't exactly constitute a review. What is wrong with the frame in your opinion; poor alignment, bad brazing, bad geometry, you didn't like the paint job? I am curious, I haven't had the opportunity to see one in the flesh myself as there don't seem to be any dealers in the Detroit area.

I got an Azor Oma a couple of months ago after reading everything I could find about Azors, Retrovelos, Velorbises, Pashleys, and a few other bicycles of that kind. I talked to a lot of dealers, too, and got a lot of conflicting advice, about the Velorbises especially. I still wish I had been able to try the bicycles I spent so long investigating, but now, Oma in hand, what I feel about the other bikes is curiosity, no more.

One of the things that puzzled me while I was talking to dealers was their refusal to tell me how much their bikes weighed. They told me weight didn't matter. When I'm lugging my Oma up even two or three steps I feel how wrong they were to have said this--the thing weighs an absolute ton. There's no way on earth I could ever get it up an a car roof rack; it would need a crane. But when I am actually riding it's a whole different story: it feels not massive but smooth. The first time I took it out I had the very strange sensation of riding always down an otherwise imperceptible hill. The bicycle seemed to glide along of its own volition.

The geometry is, for me, wonderful--no neck or shoulder strain at all, something I had been been unsure of in the Retrovelos.

Friends (and bike shop people) who have taken the Oma out on test rides come back not just pleased but awed. It really does feel fantastic to ride.

One thing to be aware of if you do get an Azor, watcher, is that the tubes from which the racks are made are unusually large, which means not all panniers will fit them.

Thanks for the excellent post. I had worried that the bike would be sluggish. Just out of interest, are you a male or female? If male, why did you go with the oma model over the opa?
I get a feeling I might need to go for the oma simply because of the frame size of the opa being too large for me.

Also, do you struggle up hills with this bike because of the weight?

And wasn't intended to be one.

- the front fork tubes are awkwardly crimped to attach to the steering tube. The weld there is on the ugly side
- the chainstays are not one solid piece. They stop about four inches back, have a slip joint, then continue to the rear. I would guess because it was easier for them than forming one solid piece.
- The chainstay tube is simply crimped at the back to form a "dropout"
- the seatstay tube is crimped at the bottom and a slip joint is used to join it to the chainstay
- the lock is basically zip-tied to the chainstays. I'm guessing noone would rely on this kind of lock in this country anyway
- the brake bridge is just a flat piece of metal tacked to the seatstays
- the rear rack mounts to the brake bridge with a very tacky piece of metal resembling galvanized steel
- the crankset is cheap looking
- the chainring is bascically a piece of stamped steel, cheaper looking than anything you would find on a WalMart bike
- the bell only works half the time. Every other use the plastic gears bind and the lever will not move.
- I could continue but would sound even more nit-picky than I already do.

On first or second glance, it is a very attractive bike. It's only upon closer inspection that these things come out. The fabrication techniques just seem either lazy or low-tech (for instance, maybe they do not have the equipment to form a one-piece chainstay).

There is nothing mechanically wrong with the bike, I just feel that the construction quality does not coincide with the selling price - nor that of the equivelently price Retrovelo.

It's been sitting in my office for about two weeks now. I've yet to decide whether I'm going to keep the bike and ride it, or resell it.

Watcher, I am a fiftyish-year-old woman in fairly good shape from rowing, Nordic Tracking, and the like, but by no means an athlete. I live in an area almost pancakelike in its flatness, so I can't tell you about real hills. The feeling I mentioned of riding always downhill was something I felt on fairly flat streets. The only actual incline I encounter on my rides around town is a spiralling footbridge/overpass, which I climb in a low gear, sitting down, without strain. I would be no match at all for someone serious on a road bike--12 mph is what I regard as a comfortable speed on this bike in my stop-signed neighborhood, 15 mph on more open areas--but I'm clearly having a considerably easier and happier time covering ground than most of the people I see riding around here.

I gather that, despite the grandmotherliness of its name, the Oma is what just about everybody, male and female, rides in Holland. It's got beautiful lines, but there's nothing girlish about it.

My co-author at AustinBikeBlog just ordered the Azor Secret Service and we'll be doing a review as soon as we get it. He agonized about the Azor versus Velorbis and went Azor based on this gut feeling that the Azor was a true utility bike and the Velorbis was a bike built to look like a utility bike (more on that here: https://austinbikeblog.org/?p=332)

From what I can tell, the Azors are solid, no frills bikes that will do what they are designed to do. The Retrovelos look like they'll do the job with more style (thus the higher price tag.) What's more important to you?

The guy who does copenhagengirlsonbikes pumps Velorbis every week or so, but if the bikes are crap, you're probably better with more recognized brands like Azor and Retrovelo. Clever Cycles sells both. If I had the money, I'd try a Retrovelo. The designs remind me of what I like in the femme Bianchi Milano.

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. I've seen that person "king" writing comments about the Azor being inferior on other sites too when people have gone and purchased them.

I thought the Retrovelo might be slightly faster because it is often described as being a light steel frame. The secret service model of the Azor might have less weight, but the LBS I was considering doesn't sell them.
In fact, a quick search using google UK comes up with no hits, so maybe it's a renaming of a bike which goes by a different name (perhaps the Azor Toronto?)

By the way, Uke, the Retrovelo looks beautiful in that pic

Thanks, that more info to go on. Due to the weakness of the dollar the price on all the european bikes seems ridiculously high to me, especially since I'm not yet sold on full time bike commuting in the Detroit area. My old road bike is totally unsuited to commuting, and with a couple hundred in modifications like new tires, light, handlebars, fenders and racks is marginally less unsuited for commuting but at least more acceptable for leisurely weekends. I'm considering building something or finding something used. The trouble with used is finding one that can comfortably accommodate a 6'2" 190 lb. guy without spending more gas searching for it than I'll ever save But the Dutch bike and those classic English roadsters are the type of bike I have in mind.

I met the Retrovelo guys when they first showed their bikes in America last year. Their main design influence? "American cruiser bikes," is what they told me. While we fall over ourselves about ingenious Dutch bike design, these German guys admire American bike design. Weird, huh? Grass is greener and all that.

I really really like Retrovelo bikes. Their catalog photos are pretty nice, too.

Watcher:
Not sure where you live, I presume the UK as you express currency in pounds.
IMHO- The "Dutch" style bikes expressed above are a nice concept but the ones I've seen or ridden seem to have quality inconsistencies- some parts are very nice, some cheap. Plus they are heavy.
If in UK, check out a bike like Giant N3 or R8.
If in US, look at a Breezer model- Freedom or Villager are good choices.

I have no experience with the Retrovelo, but many, many miles on an Azor Opa. I highly recommend the Azor. It's a rock-solid piece of equipment that requires no upkeep. The steel frame and fat tires make for a smooth ride. Getting up to speed can be a challenge if you're dealing with hills. I commuted on my Azor for a while and then moved to a Surly Long Haul Trucker.

My uncle test road the Azor and said it seems like a pretty good bike, but that it won't really be suitable for commuting more than 5 miles. Actually, he said it wouldn't be comfortable for such a ride, not that it's impossible.

I'm putting it down to the weight, and assume that since the Retrovelo is lighter, it might be better for this? Anyway, hopefully I can test ride both this week.

If anyone else has any ideas for an upright steel frame bike please let me know. Money is not so much as an issue if it will last me as long as I hope.

i got the same impression test riding several dutch bikes, but in the end, the weight ended up being a big problem for me. i have a low-end dutch brand, a cortina. it has massive oversized steel tubing and weighs even more than a velorbis or azor by a few pounds. on level ground, it feels great-- smooth and solid, not even the slight bit strained. plus, i don't even notice when i have 50 lbs of stuff on my back rack... the dutch bikes feel like they were made to take a lot of weight. however, going up hills is torture. i gave up commuting with my cortina because the hill i live on was killing me. my cortina has the same sturmey archer gearing ratios as my vintage raleigh, which weighs 20 lbs less. my raleigh takes hills *much* more easily than the cortina. weight isn't much of a problem on level ground, but you can't ignore it going up hills. extra low gearing (such as found in a 7- or 8-speed hub) helps mitigate the weight effect, but weight is weight. there is a reason that heavy bikes evolved in holland-- holland is essentially flat. and i suspect that's the reason these bikes never sold very well outside of holland. holland is like the galapagos islands for bike evolution.

also keep in mind that much of the weight of a typical dutch bike is contributed by heavy accessory components, not just the frame. dutch seats are heavier than brooks seats. dutch racks are heavier than most aftermarket racks. and most dutch bikes come with either steel or stainless steel rims... aluminum rims and rack alone might reduce the weight of a dutch bike by 10 lbs.

that said, i still like my cortina with its massive frame and stainless steel rims, despite its weight. it's a better work bike than most bikes. i also have a couple of vintage dutch city bikes (both unions) which aren't quite as heavy as the cortina/azor/velorbis variety, but they aren't nearly as utilitarian.

as for the azor brand. the distributor for them here in the boston area is dutchbikes.us. according to the owner, azors have given him headaches. quality is spotty in places, and azor doesn't like to honor warranty claims. so, he has to pay for his customers' warranty repairs out of pocket. he's switched his main brand to velorbis, which he claims has been a wonderful company to work with, and he has very few quality problems with them.

i've heard nothing but great things about a relatively new brand in holland-- fietsfabriek. supposedly very well made bikes. but as far as i know, there is no north american distributor.

I've spent the better part of the past week looking at the Dutch bikes. I love the Retrovelo, but really wish it came with a chain guard. My commute will be along the beach bike path and I want to keep as much sand grit out of there as possible, as well as keeping grease off my pants. The Breezer Uptown 8 is also in my Top 5 list.

I just wanted to let you know I visited Clever Cycles while I was in Portland and the Retrovelos are even more beautiful in person. The build quality and paint job is superb. If you have the means and don't plan to abuse the hell out of your bike, I think they'd be a great way to go.

The balloon racer is an entirely new bike category. It superficially resembles the heavyweight paperboy cruisers but that's where the similarities end. It seems to be a fusion of the mountain bike, city bike and randonneur/touring bike while having its own look and charm. The specially designed big fast rolling tires make it a unique bicycle. Retrovelo did something no one thought could be done and that was to re-imagine the bicycle from the ground up. Its different from the bikes that are already out on the market.

The retrovelo seems to be something of a different animal than the azor. They share a few dutch traits-- they come with luggage carriers, fenders, flat pedals, etc-- but they're really quite different.

The azor is a traditional dutch bike. The retrovelo has more tire clearance, more gearing, a lighter weight, and a less upright riding position. It seems "sportier," somehow-- like it's been hybridized with a mountain bike. The retrovelo seems like the kind of bike you might ride off road for fun; absolutely not for the azor.