Unlawful Cyclists?
08-28-08, 04:44 PM
#51
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I ran more than one residential stop sign, (usually with not a single car in sight) – not because I feel more virtuous than thou, but because I'm balancing on 3/4 of an inch of rubber with my feet locked into the pedals, and that's a heck of a lot easier to do if I don't have to reduce my momentum every two minutes.
She should read Grant Peterson's article about platform pedals:
https://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...on+pedal+grant
08-28-08, 06:48 PM
#52
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What's wrong with you? When auto drivers signal they afford cyclists the opportunity to act accordingly; to do the courteous thing and move over to the left if a driver signals their intention to turn right, to get out of someone's way if their intention is to turn left, to slow and let them pass if they signal they would like to change lanes. 90% of near misses I have had are a result of a driver failing to signal.
Nothing wrong with me dude! I just don't find a lot of drivers signalling their intentions. Frankly, I don't expect it, either. In fact, how many bicyclists in Orange County used hand signals? From my experience, close to zero.
Your wife's letter comes across as somewhat snobbish "roadie elitist", in that she should be awarded specials treatment since shes on a bicycles and dressed in full cycling regalia. Face the fact that you're on a city street, not a closed race course, ride defensively, and you won't have any more problems than iif you were driving a car.
08-28-08, 08:05 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by surfrider Rules of the road are rules of the road.
And platitudes are platitudes.
Originally Posted by surfrider Bicyclists shouldn't be treated any different than motorists, and vis-versa.
The day that the "rules of the road", the signs, the signals, and the infrastructure are designed with all road users in mind, not just cars and trucks, that statement will make sense.
And platitudes are platitudes.
Originally Posted by surfrider Bicyclists shouldn't be treated any different than motorists, and vis-versa.
The day that the "rules of the road", the signs, the signals, and the infrastructure are designed with all road users in mind, not just cars and trucks, that statement will make sense.
08-28-08, 08:13 PM
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Last edited by MrRamonG; 08-28-08 at 08:17 PM.
08-28-08, 08:15 PM
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I spoke with a coworker today and she mentioned that all cyclists should just get off the rode because we can't follow traffic laws. It's that kind of attitude that is prevalent around here. I of course attempted to remind her that the majority of cars are the ones that are pulled over for speeding, drunk driving, reckless driving, and running stop signs and traffic signals and yet they are allowed to be on the roadway. But, you cannot have an intelligent conversation with an unreasonable and opinionated person.
08-28-08, 08:21 PM
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I'm saying that's the law. Double yellow, you can't pass. The slower vehicle being a bicycle doesn't generally change the law. Cars generally pass anyway, but they're in the wrong. I do it myself, there are plenty of situations where it's safe since the double yellows are laid out assuming "at speed" passing - you need a lot more room to pass a car doing 50 than a bike doing 15. But still it's technically illegal. That's what I'm saying.
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08-28-08, 08:28 PM
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What's wrong with you? When auto drivers signal they afford cyclists the opportunity to act accordingly; to do the courteous thing and move over to the left if a driver signals their intention to turn right, to get out of someone's way if their intention is to turn left, to slow and let them pass if they signal they would like to change lanes. 90% of near misses I have had are a result of a driver failing to signal.
For a long time I stayed right if they weren't signalling, so that when the light turned, they could go on ahead while I stayed in the generously wide shoulder. However, I've learned that almost everyone is turning right, and people either don't signal, or they turn their signal on halfway through the turn, so trying to stay to the right just means cars are nervously coming up on my left then turning right in front of me while I wait at the light.
So now I move far left whether the car is signalling or not, and if they're going straight, they can just wait behind me until I clear the intersection.
It seems like the norm in Michigan is to either not signal at all, or to flip the signal on as you start the turn or even halfway through it. I don't even know why they bother doing the latter; they're not helping anyone. I try to be considerate to other drivers by leaving a clear path whatever way they're going, but if they don't let me know what they're doing, I can't.
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08-28-08, 08:49 PM
#58
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If I have to swerve to avoid you because you pull a stupid on your bike, you can absolutely cause a dangerous situation that can result in motorists being killed.
We need to put this whole 'bikes don't have to obey laws because bikes can't hurt drivers' thing to death, because it's just not true.
That's not to say that cyclists need to obey the strict letter of dumb laws. For instance, I pretty much never, ever do a complete stop at a stop sign, prefering to maintain about 1-2 mph of speed, timing it so I can accelerate after cars that had the right of way. I do that because it's safer for all involved, as a cyclist dismounted isn't very maneuverable. But I never blast through intersections at speed because it's not very bright.
That's the only issue I take with the letter - she seems to justify lots of things based on inconveniences and personal choices rather than safety. She doesn't like to stop because it kills momentum? Drivers don't like stopping either, and it's not like accelerating from a stop back to 10mph is hard. Don't like stopping because you have clipless? Like I mentioned above, learning to keep a bike upright at 1-2 mph isn't that hard either. Or don't use clipless, that's a personal choice. As to almost causing accidents because left-turning drivers (who have the right of way) didn't use their turn signal...well, trusting turn signals (or lack thereof) is a really good way to end up dead.
Again, I'm not advocating obeying the law over being safe, but I do take issue with the notion that being safe is too invonvenient.
We need to put this whole 'bikes don't have to obey laws because bikes can't hurt drivers' thing to death, because it's just not true.
That's not to say that cyclists need to obey the strict letter of dumb laws. For instance, I pretty much never, ever do a complete stop at a stop sign, prefering to maintain about 1-2 mph of speed, timing it so I can accelerate after cars that had the right of way. I do that because it's safer for all involved, as a cyclist dismounted isn't very maneuverable. But I never blast through intersections at speed because it's not very bright.
That's the only issue I take with the letter - she seems to justify lots of things based on inconveniences and personal choices rather than safety. She doesn't like to stop because it kills momentum? Drivers don't like stopping either, and it's not like accelerating from a stop back to 10mph is hard. Don't like stopping because you have clipless? Like I mentioned above, learning to keep a bike upright at 1-2 mph isn't that hard either. Or don't use clipless, that's a personal choice. As to almost causing accidents because left-turning drivers (who have the right of way) didn't use their turn signal...well, trusting turn signals (or lack thereof) is a really good way to end up dead.
Again, I'm not advocating obeying the law over being safe, but I do take issue with the notion that being safe is too invonvenient.
listen...you have to use common sense...am I going to run red lights on a busy main road in rush hour traffic? no! but on a quiet backroad with no cars in sight I'm not going to stop at every stop sign either...lets not be rediculous.
08-28-08, 08:54 PM
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That's one of my pet peeves too. I have an intersection on my commute where the main road curves to the right at a stoplight, but I go straight through. VERY often I'm the first one at the light (most of the time in fact). If the car coming up behind me is signalling right, I'll move far left. There's no right turn lane but there's a wide enough shoulder for any car or truck to slide by on my right.
For a long time I stayed right if they weren't signalling, so that when the light turned, they could go on ahead while I stayed in the generously wide shoulder. However, I've learned that almost everyone is turning right, and people either don't signal, or they turn their signal on halfway through the turn, so trying to stay to the right just means cars are nervously coming up on my left then turning right in front of me while I wait at the light.
So now I move far left whether the car is signalling or not, and if they're going straight, they can just wait behind me until I clear the intersection.
It seems like the norm in Michigan is to either not signal at all, or to flip the signal on as you start the turn or even halfway through it. I don't even know why they bother doing the latter; they're not helping anyone. I try to be considerate to other drivers by leaving a clear path whatever way they're going, but if they don't let me know what they're doing, I can't.
For a long time I stayed right if they weren't signalling, so that when the light turned, they could go on ahead while I stayed in the generously wide shoulder. However, I've learned that almost everyone is turning right, and people either don't signal, or they turn their signal on halfway through the turn, so trying to stay to the right just means cars are nervously coming up on my left then turning right in front of me while I wait at the light.
So now I move far left whether the car is signalling or not, and if they're going straight, they can just wait behind me until I clear the intersection.
It seems like the norm in Michigan is to either not signal at all, or to flip the signal on as you start the turn or even halfway through it. I don't even know why they bother doing the latter; they're not helping anyone. I try to be considerate to other drivers by leaving a clear path whatever way they're going, but if they don't let me know what they're doing, I can't.
08-29-08, 05:00 AM
#60
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I'm saying that's the law. Double yellow, you can't pass. The slower vehicle being a bicycle doesn't generally change the law. Cars generally pass anyway, but they're in the wrong. I do it myself, there are plenty of situations where it's safe since the double yellows are laid out assuming "at speed" passing - you need a lot more room to pass a car doing 50 than a bike doing 15. But still it's technically illegal. That's what I'm saying.
Originally Posted by Ohio
§4511.31. Hazardous zones
(A) The department of transportation may determine those portions of any state highway where overtaking and passing other traffic or driving to the left of the center or center line of the roadway would be especially hazardous and may, by appropriate signs or markings on the highway, indicate the beginning and end of such zones. …
(B) Division (A) of this section does not apply when all of the following apply:
(1) The slower vehicle is proceeding at less than half the speed of the speed limit applicable to that location.
(2) The faster vehicle is capable of overtaking and passing the slower vehicle without exceeding the speed limit.
(3) There is sufficient clear sight distance to the left of the center or center line of the roadway to meet the overtaking and passing provisions of section 4511.29 of the Revised Code, considering the speed of the slower vehicle.
Comment: Section 4511.31(B) should help reduce tension between cyclists and faster drivers. Now, they can pass in "no passing" zones IF passing is safe.
(A) The department of transportation may determine those portions of any state highway where overtaking and passing other traffic or driving to the left of the center or center line of the roadway would be especially hazardous and may, by appropriate signs or markings on the highway, indicate the beginning and end of such zones. …
(B) Division (A) of this section does not apply when all of the following apply:
(1) The slower vehicle is proceeding at less than half the speed of the speed limit applicable to that location.
(2) The faster vehicle is capable of overtaking and passing the slower vehicle without exceeding the speed limit.
(3) There is sufficient clear sight distance to the left of the center or center line of the roadway to meet the overtaking and passing provisions of section 4511.29 of the Revised Code, considering the speed of the slower vehicle.
Comment: Section 4511.31(B) should help reduce tension between cyclists and faster drivers. Now, they can pass in "no passing" zones IF passing is safe.
And to be honest, I'm GLAD they can pass... I do NOT want some driver squatting at 15/20mph whatever, for a mile, literally stewing in their anger, to finally get to some broken lines. You and I both know what would happen. They would just vent it on their gas pedal, and that's not safe for anyone. That's where cigarette butts, obsenities, honking, etc, will all start coming your way.
No thanks. Pass me and get the f-ck away from me... I hate it when cars are afraid to pass me...
Last edited by Tsuru; 08-29-08 at 05:04 AM.
08-29-08, 06:17 AM
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08-29-08, 09:49 AM
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You hear "same road, same rules" a lot...but in reality bikes, motorcycles, cars, and trucks are subjected to slightly different rules on road. Many of these different laws have been enacted to address specific problems or specific differences between the vehicles...for instance, in many places motorcycles can weave through traffic jams so they don't overheat. Obviously what Idaho has done with the bikes can treat stop signs as yields is another good example. Commercial trucks often face restrictions on certain roads where their weight would damage the roadway or they simply can't easily make turns. The reason why there are some subtle differences in the laws is that bikes, motorcycles, cars, and trucks are all different. The one size fits all approach doesn't really work.
As bike commuting grows more popular, I hope we start seeing some more subtle changes to the vehicular code to address the differences of being on a bike vs. in a car to make it safer for everyone. I would love to see the stop sign as a yield become law in more places...since most of us probably treat them as such anyway (for various reasons).
As others have noted, there is a big difference between blowing through a stop sign and rolling through one. And even still, a "rolling stop" on a bike is much different than a rolling stop in a car. In the area of MI that I currently live, unless it is a busy 4 way stop or stop sign, most car drivers roll through the stop. Most drivers don't use their turn signals. Why? Because those laws aren't heavily enforced. And no that is not meant to be an excuse for why I will roll through a stop sign on my bike. Rather, as others have pointed out, it makes it very dangerous on a bike, since you don't know what a driver is going to do. Are they really going to stop? Are they really going straight and not turning? I roll through stops not because I think I'm above the law, but because my stopping distance is way shorter than on a car and I want to maintain my momentum so I can get across the road or through that intersection as fast as possible, and out of harms way. My personal safety trumps whatever laws there might be.
If all drivers followed the laws, were patient, and treated cyclists with respect, this wouldn't be an issue. Just yesterday I was waiting my turn at a 4 way stop...completely stopped, one foot on the ground, and some jackass cut in front of me as I was starting to go totally bypassing my turn and almost hitting me (he was directly behind the car that had just went, so there shouldn't have been any confusion). He also had no turn signal on.
Oh there was a point to this...I think the laws should be slightly different between cars and bikes, it would make us all safer.
As bike commuting grows more popular, I hope we start seeing some more subtle changes to the vehicular code to address the differences of being on a bike vs. in a car to make it safer for everyone. I would love to see the stop sign as a yield become law in more places...since most of us probably treat them as such anyway (for various reasons).
As others have noted, there is a big difference between blowing through a stop sign and rolling through one. And even still, a "rolling stop" on a bike is much different than a rolling stop in a car. In the area of MI that I currently live, unless it is a busy 4 way stop or stop sign, most car drivers roll through the stop. Most drivers don't use their turn signals. Why? Because those laws aren't heavily enforced. And no that is not meant to be an excuse for why I will roll through a stop sign on my bike. Rather, as others have pointed out, it makes it very dangerous on a bike, since you don't know what a driver is going to do. Are they really going to stop? Are they really going straight and not turning? I roll through stops not because I think I'm above the law, but because my stopping distance is way shorter than on a car and I want to maintain my momentum so I can get across the road or through that intersection as fast as possible, and out of harms way. My personal safety trumps whatever laws there might be.
If all drivers followed the laws, were patient, and treated cyclists with respect, this wouldn't be an issue. Just yesterday I was waiting my turn at a 4 way stop...completely stopped, one foot on the ground, and some jackass cut in front of me as I was starting to go totally bypassing my turn and almost hitting me (he was directly behind the car that had just went, so there shouldn't have been any confusion). He also had no turn signal on.
Oh there was a point to this...I think the laws should be slightly different between cars and bikes, it would make us all safer.
Last edited by corripio; 08-29-08 at 09:53 AM.
08-29-08, 10:11 AM
#63
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That's one of the dumber things I've read recently.
08-29-08, 10:52 AM
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Good example of where it isn't legal would be the most of Cleveland's Emerald Necklace...where the speed limit is 30 and I am usually doing 20-25. But the drivers pass anyway...this is Ohio, were laws are only made to be broken.
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08-29-08, 08:04 PM
#65
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You hear "same road, same rules" a lot...but in reality bikes, motorcycles, cars, and trucks are subjected to slightly different rules on road.
Oh there was a point to this...I think the laws should be slightly different between cars and bikes, it would make us all safer.
Oh there was a point to this...I think the laws should be slightly different between cars and bikes, it would make us all safer.
Most of the laws are to keep the mindless morons from hurting themselves and unfortunatly the rest of us have to pay the price for other peoples stupidity. In my town everytime theres a car accident at an intersection they put up a new stop sign or a traffic light. Usually it's because one idiot is in too much of a rush and the other idiot isnt paying attention...now it takes me 45 minutes to get 3 miles because I have to stop 47 f***ing times in a 3 mile stretch.
08-30-08, 05:56 PM
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08-31-08, 01:55 AM
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When I come up to stop signs I just put my head down; most cars realize that waiving me on wont work and lets both of us avoid the awkward pause. By the time I look up they are usually turning, if they still haven't got the hint I proceed across the intersection as slow as I can.
