Slowdown of Auto industry
12-05-08 | 02:54 AM
#76
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From: Gainesville/Tampa, FL
Bikes: Trek 1000, two mtbs and working on a fixie for commuting.
Now on the same topic, how can you be sure that a number of UAW workers aren't college grads? If what you had in mind is that college grads should get paid more, then I agree. But as a union, you really can't get around that if a number of them are college grads.
As an economics student, my stance on unions is that either unions should be for all or for none. It is easier to get to none from the few that we have, but it is hard to go backwards.
12-05-08 | 02:59 AM
#77
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From: Gainesville/Tampa, FL
Bikes: Trek 1000, two mtbs and working on a fixie for commuting.
I don't expect a mass exodus away from cars. However, when gas prices got outrageous in the summer, I personally decided to live car-free to the greatest extent possible. It's my small contribution to the green movement, and it's a protest against the price-gouging of the oil producers. Besides, it just feels good to ride everywhere.
Now that it's getting cold in N. California (yeah, go ahead and laugh!), it's putting me to the test, but I haven't faltered yet. I recently even mounted fenders on both my commute/utility bikes.
Now that it's getting cold in N. California (yeah, go ahead and laugh!), it's putting me to the test, but I haven't faltered yet. I recently even mounted fenders on both my commute/utility bikes.
As far as I recall, Light Sweet NYMEX Crude dropped below $44 today. Some are translating that to near or under $1 a gallon in some places. People will start driving again, thinking personal economics more than principle and that is sad, but understandable (for some).
Now if the CEOs of the Big 3 continually drive or charter instead of flying in private planes until they retire or are given the boot, then I congratulate them. And congrats to you for taking to cold. It's freezing down here
EDIT: just checked, it is now rising past $44/barrel.
12-05-08 | 05:30 AM
#78
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From: Germantown MD
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Thousands? try millions. I do not like the fact that the big 3 will get thier loan, not a bailout, its a bridge loan. But fact is that as a country we have let a union run company get so large and intergrate itself so much into our economic fabric scares me. Yes we need to loan them $$$, is it right? No. Would the entire country hurt if they fail, you betcha.
12-05-08 | 05:44 AM
#79
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Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Detroit, MI
...if you don't bother to think it through.
There is no set of needs -- none -- for which there is not a better solution than an SUV. That includes hauling "3 or 4 kids" (which, by the way, is not a "typical family" anymore...but I digress). A wagon beats an SUV for that job any day. So yes, people did get sold a line of crap. It's their fault they bought it, because -- just as with cigarettes -- there was and is plenty of information out there telling you that this is the wrong choice. But how many people ever avail themselves of that information? Some of us do, but most people don't.
There is no set of needs -- none -- for which there is not a better solution than an SUV. That includes hauling "3 or 4 kids" (which, by the way, is not a "typical family" anymore...but I digress). A wagon beats an SUV for that job any day. So yes, people did get sold a line of crap. It's their fault they bought it, because -- just as with cigarettes -- there was and is plenty of information out there telling you that this is the wrong choice. But how many people ever avail themselves of that information? Some of us do, but most people don't.
Mimivans are a lot more practicable than SUVs, but the are not really more efficient than SUVs in operation. They are still 5000+ pound vehicles.
In any case, this is all a digression. It doesn't matter how automotive executives travel, what cars they built before or if they get paid a dollar a year now. The question is, do we want to allow the expertise and tens of thousands of engineering, finance and research jobs to go overseas or not? Do we want to remain at all competent in this industry or just let it become another thing we buy from overseas along with steelmaking, computer making, oil etc?
12-05-08 | 08:28 AM
#81
No one carries the DogBoy
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Upper Midwest USA
Bikes: Roubaix Expert Di2, Jamis Renegade, Surly Disc Trucker, Cervelo P2, CoMotion Tandem
Also, Ford is very well known for building excellent small cars. Just not in the US. Same with GM/Opel. They do not need to go from drawing board to showroom, they already have decent cars. The current Focus is one of the best small cars around in terms of both efficiency and safety. Their problem is a cost structure, not their cars.
Also, I dispute that millions of jobs will be impacted by a big three bankruptcy. Many of those jobs are related post-sale, and those will not be impacted until the millions of GM & Ford cars are off the road. Given the value that still remains in intellectual property and manufacturing capability, you won't see millions of jobs lost. At least, not in my opinion.
At any rate, I'm trying to figure out why this thread is in the commuting forum.
12-05-08 | 08:35 AM
#82
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From: Kettering OH
Bikes: Trek 520, Cadex CFM2
I live in the Dayton, OH area. We have a GM Truck plant (Trailblazers and clones) here that is closing down two days before Christmas. I bike commute daily through a neighborhood that I believe is populated mostly GM workers. As the third and seconds shifts were shut down earlier this year, I began to see working-age folks sitting on lawn chairs in their driveways. They would often wave as I rode by.
Lately, I'm sensing some tension, and one guy actually flipped me the bird last week. I was a bit baffled. It was like he was saying "Screw you buddy for riding a bike. You should buy a truck so I can keep my job."
My area will definitely feel the impact. Dayton OH has the most GM employees anywhere outside Detroit. In the short term, U.S. auto plant closures will hurt, a lot. I think in the long term, it'll be viewed as a market share correction that should have naturally occurred a long time ago if not for the billions of dollars U.S. auto makers spent marketing vehicles that were not good for America.
I doubt we'll see any difference in the number of bike commuters around here. People who drive pickups and SUVs don't view bikes as a viable transportation. The only people riding bikes around here are hardcore commuters and drunks who lost their drivers licenses.
Lately, I'm sensing some tension, and one guy actually flipped me the bird last week. I was a bit baffled. It was like he was saying "Screw you buddy for riding a bike. You should buy a truck so I can keep my job."
My area will definitely feel the impact. Dayton OH has the most GM employees anywhere outside Detroit. In the short term, U.S. auto plant closures will hurt, a lot. I think in the long term, it'll be viewed as a market share correction that should have naturally occurred a long time ago if not for the billions of dollars U.S. auto makers spent marketing vehicles that were not good for America.
I doubt we'll see any difference in the number of bike commuters around here. People who drive pickups and SUVs don't view bikes as a viable transportation. The only people riding bikes around here are hardcore commuters and drunks who lost their drivers licenses.
12-05-08 | 09:19 AM
#83
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From: Boston (sort of)
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[QUOTE=DogBoy;7968745]The SUV/minivan is the modern equivalent to what the station wagon used to be...ie, 7-8 passenger cars with three rows of seats. I have a modern station wagon too...a jetta sportwagen, but I can only get 5 passengers in it. The benefit is in additional cargo space.[/quotes]
Hey, let's move the goalposts some more! A few posts back it was a "typical family" with "3-4 kids" (which is no longer typical, but let's not go there). Now, apparently, it's "7-8 passengers". When I solve that problem, will it suddenly become "a football team plus cheerleaders"?
Here is a 1959 Ford Country Squire station wagon, supposedly a "9-passenger" vehicle. Damfino where you'd fit them all. What I do know is that the modern SUV, far from seating "7-8 passengers", seats four or five including the driver. My wagon will do that with ease -- and the SUV doesn't have any "additional cargo space". Trust me, I see plenty of SUVs, I work at a ski area. My wagon has much more hauling capacity than the typical SUV.
Meh. My dad's last American car was a Ford, and it was a lemon. It's possible they made astonishing progress since that suck-ass Tempo, but if you've been burned, why would you bother risking it again?
Maybe not, but you don't get bailout money by saying, "The sky isn't falling."
Hey, let's move the goalposts some more! A few posts back it was a "typical family" with "3-4 kids" (which is no longer typical, but let's not go there). Now, apparently, it's "7-8 passengers". When I solve that problem, will it suddenly become "a football team plus cheerleaders"?
Here is a 1959 Ford Country Squire station wagon, supposedly a "9-passenger" vehicle. Damfino where you'd fit them all. What I do know is that the modern SUV, far from seating "7-8 passengers", seats four or five including the driver. My wagon will do that with ease -- and the SUV doesn't have any "additional cargo space". Trust me, I see plenty of SUVs, I work at a ski area. My wagon has much more hauling capacity than the typical SUV.
Also, Ford is very well known for building excellent small cars. Just not in the US. Same with GM/Opel. They do not need to go from drawing board to showroom, they already have decent cars. The current Focus is one of the best small cars around in terms of both efficiency and safety. Their problem is a cost structure, not their cars.
Also, I dispute that millions of jobs will be impacted by a big three bankruptcy. Many of those jobs are related post-sale, and those will not be impacted until the millions of GM & Ford cars are off the road. Given the value that still remains in intellectual property and manufacturing capability, you won't see millions of jobs lost. At least, not in my opinion.
12-05-08 | 09:30 AM
#84
No one carries the DogBoy
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Upper Midwest USA
Bikes: Roubaix Expert Di2, Jamis Renegade, Surly Disc Trucker, Cervelo P2, CoMotion Tandem
Hey, let's move the goalposts some more! A few posts back it was a "typical family" with "3-4 kids" (which is no longer typical, but let's not go there). Now, apparently, it's "7-8 passengers". When I solve that problem, will it suddenly become "a football team plus cheerleaders"?
And I don't want to give them bailout money, which is why I'm saying "The sky isn't falling."
12-05-08 | 10:26 AM
#85
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From: Boston (sort of)
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You were the lucky one (as in, singular). Dad had a 1983 Tempo (I believe...was that the first model year?). It sucked like an electrolux, pretty much from day one. His next car after he ditched that filthy thing was a Toyota, and he never looked back.
12-05-08 | 01:29 PM
#86
Unfortunately, most people's impressions of cars and the autoworkers were formed in childhood, and haven't changed since. Two specifics are the beliefs that US cars are low quality and that unions are strong defenders of lazy overpaid workers. These beliefs are at the level of superstition or mythology. No appeal to reality is likely to change them.
__________________
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12-05-08 | 01:59 PM
#87
Rides again
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From: SW. Sacramento Region, aka, down river
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Close Roody, but my opinion of Ford is based on horrible experience with a Taurus. I loved the Fairlane, but after the Taurus would never buy a Ford again. {not to mention their current pendance for ugly face forward designs}
On the original issue, this mess has been a long time coming and I don't know the solution but obvious contributing factors are
1. business decisions made based on what's good in 3 months rather than what's good in 3 years
2. overproduction of product
3. lack of an energy policy that taxes motor vehicles based on vehicle weight
4. lack of an energy independence policy
5. lack of willingness of exec's to work in companies interest instead of just their own
6. lack of a cost structure {taxes, health care,etc} in US with rest of world
7. tax policy that encourages companies to generate profits overseas
8. willingness to consider bailout, but not willingness to consider share in profits if bailout works
9. lack of a health care plan for all employees/citizens
10. lack of a retirement plan for all employees/citizens. {soc sec was designed to be supplemental and not the sole source}
that's enough food for thought. Perhaps the core of the problem is congresss is mostly lawyers and other professions are not represented.
On the original issue, this mess has been a long time coming and I don't know the solution but obvious contributing factors are
1. business decisions made based on what's good in 3 months rather than what's good in 3 years
2. overproduction of product
3. lack of an energy policy that taxes motor vehicles based on vehicle weight
4. lack of an energy independence policy
5. lack of willingness of exec's to work in companies interest instead of just their own
6. lack of a cost structure {taxes, health care,etc} in US with rest of world
7. tax policy that encourages companies to generate profits overseas
8. willingness to consider bailout, but not willingness to consider share in profits if bailout works
9. lack of a health care plan for all employees/citizens
10. lack of a retirement plan for all employees/citizens. {soc sec was designed to be supplemental and not the sole source}
that's enough food for thought. Perhaps the core of the problem is congresss is mostly lawyers and other professions are not represented.
12-05-08 | 02:29 PM
#89
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Close Roody, but my opinion of Ford is based on horrible experience with a Taurus. I loved the Fairlane, but after the Taurus would never buy a Ford again. {not to mention their current pendance for ugly face forward designs}
On the original issue, this mess has been a long time coming and I don't know the solution but obvious contributing factors are
1. business decisions made based on what's good in 3 months rather than what's good in 3 years
2. overproduction of product
3. lack of an energy policy that taxes motor vehicles based on vehicle weight
4. lack of an energy independence policy
5. lack of willingness of exec's to work in companies interest instead of just their own
6. lack of a cost structure {taxes, health care,etc} in US with rest of world
7. tax policy that encourages companies to generate profits overseas
8. willingness to consider bailout, but not willingness to consider share in profits if bailout works
9. lack of a health care plan for all employees/citizens
10. lack of a retirement plan for all employees/citizens. {soc sec was designed to be supplemental and not the sole source}
that's enough food for thought. Perhaps the core of the problem is congresss is mostly lawyers and other professions are not represented.
On the original issue, this mess has been a long time coming and I don't know the solution but obvious contributing factors are
1. business decisions made based on what's good in 3 months rather than what's good in 3 years
2. overproduction of product
3. lack of an energy policy that taxes motor vehicles based on vehicle weight
4. lack of an energy independence policy
5. lack of willingness of exec's to work in companies interest instead of just their own
6. lack of a cost structure {taxes, health care,etc} in US with rest of world
7. tax policy that encourages companies to generate profits overseas
8. willingness to consider bailout, but not willingness to consider share in profits if bailout works
9. lack of a health care plan for all employees/citizens
10. lack of a retirement plan for all employees/citizens. {soc sec was designed to be supplemental and not the sole source}
that's enough food for thought. Perhaps the core of the problem is congresss is mostly lawyers and other professions are not represented.
1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10 are all national issues.
As far as health care, UAW has an outstanding health care package as well as a unemployment package for their union workers... of course those costs are passed onto the auto makers and eventually the consumers, thus we all pay for the benefits that autoworkers get that are often covered in other nations by their national policies.
Of course that the automakers took advantage of all of this and touted massive SUVs which we as a nation bought into hook line and sinker is also part of our national problem as well as how much of consumerism is sold to America.
Just look at bikes sold in LBSs for an example... how many different styles of slightly different road bike do we really need...
12-05-08 | 02:29 PM
#90
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From: Seattle, Washington, USA
Bikes: 2009 Chris Boedeker custom; 2007 Bill Davidson custom; 2021 Bill Davidson custom gravel bike; 2022 Specialized Turbo Vado e-bike
The american taxpayer has been dictating the cars to build all along. This may not jive with your personal aesthetic, but the reason the car companies all built huge trucks and fast sports cars through the past fifteen years was because these are the vehicles people wanted to buy. Those buyers were these same 'taxpayers' that you now think wanted something else.
However, with the car companies reaching for a bailout, it would turn the same consumers in their role as taxpayers, who are required by law to pay taxes that our elected officials would direct to the car companies. So the road the industry is following is this:
- auto companies (for whatever reason) cannot compete in free market
- they are arguing that it is a public good for the government to save them
- government aid means it is the taxpayer who must supply the required funds
- so now taxpayer (though elected officials or bureacrats) should now be able to dictate what they make.
That means, we - the taxpayers - now get to exert direct influence on what the car companies make.
They tried capitalism, that didn't work for them, so now if they want to try socialism they can build the People's Car.
I am trying to point out if the car companies really want to be part-owned or financed by the taxpayers it will end up in political/government control of every decision they make, and we'll all end up driving Trabants. They will then fail even more miserably and we will have just delayed letting the market do what it's being doing to them anyway.
Further, "bailing out the car companies" doesn't *really* save production line / blue collar jobs because right now the economy *just doesn't need* as many cars as it did a year ago or even 3 months ago. More car factories are going to close; more suppliers are going to go out of business, and more dealerships are going to close no matter what.
If we really want to bailout the car companies *without screwing them up forever* the government should just give consumers vouchers for discounts on new cars and let consumers sort out whom they want to live or die.
Last edited by BengeBoy; 12-05-08 at 06:01 PM.
12-05-08 | 02:50 PM
#91
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
I recieved an Email from Tom Regan, one of a few whose working on making a South Eastern Michigan city bike friendly. The city of Royal Oak is about 8 miles West of GM's Technical Center. Below is his latest report on how it's going with the advocacy....
I just want to bring into light how the economy is affecting cycling here in Michigan. I'm sure if one or all the Big Three go bankrupt we can pretty much erase any future progress from the work below off the face of the Earth for a time being.....
Of course, this is just my thinking for the basis for Mr. Hoover's reply, but then again.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Biking and Walking in Royal Oak
From: Tom Regan
Sent: Sat 11/29/08 10:30 AM
To:
This is an update about our campaign to improve conditions for bicyclists and pedestrians in Royal Oak.
Our task force met with Royal Oak City Manager Tom Hoover and members of his staff on Tuesday, November 25th. We discussed four items.
We gave Mr. Hoover and his staff literature from the League of American Bicyclists on how a city can seek certification as a "Bicycle Friendly Community," https://www.bikeleague.org/programs/b...a/communities/ . We suggested that winning this certification should be our long-term goal.
We asked Mr. Hoover if the city would hire an outside consultant to write a Non-Motorized Transporation Plan. We estimated that this would cost about $40,000. Mr. Hoover and his staff agreed that Royal Oak would benefit from writing a non-motorized transporation plan, and that it should be done by an outside consultant. However, Mr. Hoover noted that Royal Oak (like nearly all Michigan cities) faces an extremely tight budget. Mr. Hoover stated that our task force should investigate thoroughly if any outside funding sources exist before asking the city commission the question. Several task force members agreed to investigate possible funding sources.
If you know of any possible funding sources please let me know immediately by responding to this email.
We asked Mr. Hoover about scheduled street repavings that offered immediate opportunities for making streets more bicycle-friendly, such as road diets and bike lanes. The city engineer agreed to investigate this.
We discussed special needs and opportunities along Woodward Avenue. Heather Carmona of the Woodward Avenue Action Association agreed to investigate potential funding sources and potential cooperation with neighboring cities.
The task force will meet again in mid-December to report on our separate searches for possible funding sources.
Reminder, please join us at the next Royal Oak School Board meeting to speak at public comment. Our purpose it to explain why a Non-Motorized Transportation Plan would benefit Royal Oak school children and to ask the school board to support the effort:
Thursday, December 11
7:00 pm
1123 Lexington Blvd., Royal Oak, MI 48073
Reminder, please write letters to the editor and call on Royal Oak to take steps to improve bike and pedestrian safety:
Royal Oak Mirror ksmith@hometownlife.com
Royal Oak Review clangrill@candgnews.com
Royal Oak Daily Tribune editor@dailytribune.com
Oakland Press vop@oakpress.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just want to bring into light how the economy is affecting cycling here in Michigan. I'm sure if one or all the Big Three go bankrupt we can pretty much erase any future progress from the work below off the face of the Earth for a time being.....
Of course, this is just my thinking for the basis for Mr. Hoover's reply, but then again.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Biking and Walking in Royal Oak
From: Tom Regan
Sent: Sat 11/29/08 10:30 AM
To:
This is an update about our campaign to improve conditions for bicyclists and pedestrians in Royal Oak.
Our task force met with Royal Oak City Manager Tom Hoover and members of his staff on Tuesday, November 25th. We discussed four items.
We gave Mr. Hoover and his staff literature from the League of American Bicyclists on how a city can seek certification as a "Bicycle Friendly Community," https://www.bikeleague.org/programs/b...a/communities/ . We suggested that winning this certification should be our long-term goal.
We asked Mr. Hoover if the city would hire an outside consultant to write a Non-Motorized Transporation Plan. We estimated that this would cost about $40,000. Mr. Hoover and his staff agreed that Royal Oak would benefit from writing a non-motorized transporation plan, and that it should be done by an outside consultant. However, Mr. Hoover noted that Royal Oak (like nearly all Michigan cities) faces an extremely tight budget. Mr. Hoover stated that our task force should investigate thoroughly if any outside funding sources exist before asking the city commission the question. Several task force members agreed to investigate possible funding sources.
If you know of any possible funding sources please let me know immediately by responding to this email.
We asked Mr. Hoover about scheduled street repavings that offered immediate opportunities for making streets more bicycle-friendly, such as road diets and bike lanes. The city engineer agreed to investigate this.
We discussed special needs and opportunities along Woodward Avenue. Heather Carmona of the Woodward Avenue Action Association agreed to investigate potential funding sources and potential cooperation with neighboring cities.
The task force will meet again in mid-December to report on our separate searches for possible funding sources.
Reminder, please join us at the next Royal Oak School Board meeting to speak at public comment. Our purpose it to explain why a Non-Motorized Transportation Plan would benefit Royal Oak school children and to ask the school board to support the effort:
Thursday, December 11
7:00 pm
1123 Lexington Blvd., Royal Oak, MI 48073
Reminder, please write letters to the editor and call on Royal Oak to take steps to improve bike and pedestrian safety:
Royal Oak Mirror ksmith@hometownlife.com
Royal Oak Review clangrill@candgnews.com
Royal Oak Daily Tribune editor@dailytribune.com
Oakland Press vop@oakpress.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottom line is that here in the US, we have long subsidized roadways specifically designed for the auto while all but excluding cycle specific or cycle friendly designs.
The 1956 Highway act for instance was supposedly for defense, yet that nearly exclusive system is now dedicated to the motoring public. Where is the "bicycle act?"
12-05-08 | 03:00 PM
#92
Senior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,878
Likes: 1
From: Boston (sort of)
Bikes: 1 road, 1 Urban Assault Vehicle
Unfortunately, most people's impressions of cars and the autoworkers were formed in childhood, and haven't changed since. Two specifics are the beliefs that US cars are low quality and that unions are strong defenders of lazy overpaid workers. These beliefs are at the level of superstition or mythology. No appeal to reality is likely to change them.
12-05-08 | 03:44 PM
#93
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: Detroit, MI
People grudgingly swallowed the need for a banking bailout rather than take the hit. You can viscerally not want to bail out a banking CEO that makes millions, but you can also prefer that to seeing your $10/hour job wiped out because that millionaire banker didn't get bailed out.
We are seeing a correction to a massive bubble that came from many past mistakes. We can go ahead a take the Hoover approach or we can hold our noses and try and mitigate the disaster. If you want to just let the chips fall as they may, then let the carmakers fold and start reading "The Grapes of Wrath" for tips on your new lifestyle.
If you want to mitigate the banking disaster, then think about the impact on the banks you are trying to bail out when the big three default on their outstanding $100 billion (with a B!) bonds. Think about trying to fix the housing mess when all of the workers at the big three and most of their suppliers go into foreclosure and all of the big three retirees stop spending money.
Not making a loan to the big three now makes the previous $700 billion banking bailout an exercise in futility. Somehow ending the worst financial crisis since 1932 has turned into a referendum on the quality of a 1983 Ford Tempo and the poor fuel economy of SUVs. Maybe we should just mail the keys to the US to China and stop making payments. We are too dumb to live.
We are seeing a correction to a massive bubble that came from many past mistakes. We can go ahead a take the Hoover approach or we can hold our noses and try and mitigate the disaster. If you want to just let the chips fall as they may, then let the carmakers fold and start reading "The Grapes of Wrath" for tips on your new lifestyle.
If you want to mitigate the banking disaster, then think about the impact on the banks you are trying to bail out when the big three default on their outstanding $100 billion (with a B!) bonds. Think about trying to fix the housing mess when all of the workers at the big three and most of their suppliers go into foreclosure and all of the big three retirees stop spending money.
Not making a loan to the big three now makes the previous $700 billion banking bailout an exercise in futility. Somehow ending the worst financial crisis since 1932 has turned into a referendum on the quality of a 1983 Ford Tempo and the poor fuel economy of SUVs. Maybe we should just mail the keys to the US to China and stop making payments. We are too dumb to live.
12-05-08 | 03:49 PM
#94
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,343
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From: Gainesville/Tampa, FL
Bikes: Trek 1000, two mtbs and working on a fixie for commuting.
12-05-08 | 03:51 PM
#95
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,343
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From: Gainesville/Tampa, FL
Bikes: Trek 1000, two mtbs and working on a fixie for commuting.
Unfortunately, most people's impressions of cars and the autoworkers were formed in childhood, and haven't changed since. Two specifics are the beliefs that US cars are low quality and that unions are strong defenders of lazy overpaid workers. These beliefs are at the level of superstition or mythology. No appeal to reality is likely to change them.
12-05-08 | 05:58 PM
#96
Needing more power Scotty
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 1
From: Northern New England (USA)
Bikes: 2006 Trek T-80 (commuter) 1982 Bianchi SS (classic 12 speed)
The fact is that the way the big three have been doing business for decades is not sustainable in a global economy.
SOURCE
This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion).
The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker.
Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs.
But this can not be allowed to continue!
(CNSNews.com) – The Big Three automakers are forced to pay 85- to 95-percent of union wages and benefits to members of the United Auto Workers union who aren’t working – even if their plants have been closed.
This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion).
The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker.
Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs.
But this can not be allowed to continue!
12-05-08 | 06:11 PM
#97
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: Detroit, MI
The fact is that the way the big three have been doing business for decades is not sustainable in a global economy.
SOURCE
This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion).
The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker.
Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs.
But this can not be allowed to continue!
SOURCE
This, added to the CEO's taking three separate corporate jets to congress begging to be saved is travesty at it's finest! WTF! Three weeks ago, the top three were asking for $25 billion with no plan whatsoever to how they will not be continuing as "business ads usual". Yesterday that number increased by nine billion ($34 billion).
The system is flawed from the CEO down to the front line worker.
Having said all that, I don't want to see 10's of thousands of people lose there jobs.
But this can not be allowed to continue!
10 minutes after the automaker CEO's left their intense grilling with congress Citi Bank rolled into D.C., were handed 20 Billion Dollars and flew out on their corporate jets. No questions asked.
What is the difference exactly?
Some good questins:
Are you going to keep making no money down loans to people with no means to repay the loan?
Are you going to keep buying CDO's which you have no idea what the underlying assets are worth?
What are you going to do with the $20 billion we just handed you?
You know....simple questions like that.
Last edited by DoB; 12-05-08 at 06:19 PM.
12-05-08 | 06:23 PM
#98
genec
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 27,072
Likes: 4,533
From: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
12-05-08 | 06:23 PM
#99
Needing more power Scotty
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 588
Likes: 1
From: Northern New England (USA)
Bikes: 2006 Trek T-80 (commuter) 1982 Bianchi SS (classic 12 speed)
Where do the bailouts end?
"Integrity is doing what is right whether someone is watching or not". (My layman's quote).
12-05-08 | 06:54 PM
#100
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: Detroit, MI
I don't know. But I do suspect that people who are not close to the epicenter of this may not be grasping the current situation very well. I work for a multinational company that makes cars, industrial equipment and even aircraft. We are in a crisis that has not been seen before in our lifetimes. Car sales, both in the US and in Europe plunged starting in October. Heavy equipment sales are essentially stalled. Job loss rates are occuring at a rate faster than was seen in either the recession of 82 or 74, rates not seen since the Great Depression.
If 2 of the 3 car companies fail in the US you will see unemployment rates in states like Michigan and Ohio ranging from 20% to 30%. Those are the kind of numbers that lead to civil unrest and political extremism if left unchecked.
The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable.
It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff.
I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over.
If 2 of the 3 car companies fail in the US you will see unemployment rates in states like Michigan and Ohio ranging from 20% to 30%. Those are the kind of numbers that lead to civil unrest and political extremism if left unchecked.
The reaction? 'My 83 Ford Tempo was unreliable so screw 'em'. Sounds reasonable.
It is clear to me watching the political climate that people are not grasping what is coming. If you are not in the industries being strangled by the dearth of credit available right now then you have not noticed that sales of equipment and trucks are off by upwards of 70% in October and November year to year. Yu have not noticed that the flat screen TV market is completely glutted and glass screen making companies are idled. You have not noticed that US and Europe car sales are down 45% year to year in the last month. This is not a 'small decline' in GDP. This is off a cliff.
I guess this is too bad for the layperson who is not watching internal data. Business as usual is over.