So I sent my family (kids, brothers, sisters) this link to my harrowing tale of Christmas traffic commuting.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Traffic-Mania

And my sister wrote:
-----------------
From: Lorraine
To: Phil
I just got around to reading your wild traffic ride blog...you're crazy.
------------------
So I responded:
------------------
From: Phil
To: Lorrraine

No, it is the motorists that are crazy. Would you drive around a blind corner in the left lane???

Your position is typical: we motorists do not drive safely, therefore you cyclists should stay off the road. How about instead we all (including cyclists here) just drive safely?

Every time you step into your car, remember that 36,000 motorists died in traffic last year. Don't think you are safe just because you're in a car.

Sent from my BB.
Phil

And you wonder why you never get invited to family get-togethers...

And that is just in the USA, the world wide the total is 1.2 million although not all of those were motorists.

The funny thing is, this isn't a isolated incident. Everyone, everywhere is driving like this! Is it stupidity, selfishness, laziness or some sort of combination of all three?

This morning, on the way to work I was approaching a two-way intersection that's famous for cross traffic stopping when they don't have to. This morning however played host to a scene I have never witnessed before. A woman driving some pile of crap decided, just as she passed the street that I was on that it was the street that she wanted to turn right onto and stops, blocking the street while cars start piling up behind her. I stop at the stop sign while I'm trying to figure out what she's doing. So instead of just continuing and circling around the block, she BACKS UP against traffic so she can turn down this street. Meanwhile, I'm waiting to proceed at the stop sign but I have to literally jump out of the way to avoid getting run over by her and her a-hole move. She makes this dramatic show of mouthing an apology. Wow.

I feel that i should play the devil's advocate here for a moment. Keep in mind that i am in favor for the cyclist, i do commute by bike everywhere afterall. But anyway, just about everyday that i get out there to ride i see several cyclists riding through red lights and turning in unlawful ways. Not to mention sidewalk biking, biking without the appropriate lighting or none at all, not wearing a helmet (which i think is akin to not wearing a seatbelt)..etc

If we paralleled this behavior to cagers it would be absolutely intolerable. Sometimes i wonder what those cyclist running the red lights must think about me when i'm waiting for the light instead. In this case, am i the bad one?

In conclusion, sometimes i find it hard to totally bash cagers when i see so many cyclists riding like idiots as well.

I wish I saw more people on bikes during my commute. Cold comes and bikes go into hibernation. I don't think I would mind if they were even behaving badly. Okay, I would mind a little.

Ditto. I think that more cyclists (larger percentage of) in NYC ride like idiots than car drivers drive. There is obvious and complete disregard for traffic laws and basic safety and lack of respect for other cyclists as well as pedestrians. I'm not sure if this is caused by stupidity and lack of imagination, ignorance (I'm a cyclists so like a pedestrian I don't need to worry about traffic laws) or there is some kind of "being cool" or "rebellious" thing involved.

My #1 problem when riding in the city is cyclists going the wrong way. My space on the road is often so tight there is no space to pass and then there is a moron on a bike in front of me. I usually just stop, make him/her stop and ask "now what?" Most of the time they just don't get it. There seems to be a misconception among NYC cyclists that they're supposed to ride against traffic the way pedestrians are supposed to walk on roads without sidewalks.

Adam

Agreed - that's why I said" How about instead we all (including cyclists here) just drive safely?"

The only rationalization is that unsafe driving causes a much greater degree of harm than unsafe cycling, so therefore it is more egregious. Even though the cyclist's unsafe riding causes more harm to himself than to the motorist, no one would want to be the motorist that hits the cyclist, even if it is the cyclist's fault. It would still ruin your day.

Well for one thing, a cyclist can't do the damage a motorist can, but mostly, he wasn't just bashing cagers. Cyclists were included.

What I find intolerable in my area (and I suspect this is true in other areas as well) is that if the cyclist is doing all the right things, the cyclist can be assured a motorist will eventually not yield the cyclists right of way.

When this happens, it's not unusual to find the cyclist is often forced into some kind of maneuver (that may not be legal) to avoid being hit.

I suspect a large reason why many cyclists perform moves that are not legal do so because they are simply trying to avoid being hit.

Maybe things are different in NYC, but my experience suggests the proportions aren't that different. I do see bad cyclist behaviour, and it drives me nuts, but I wouldn't go anywhere close to saying that it's more prevalent amongst cyclists than motorists. Cyclists tend to do different things stupidly, but not in any more dangerous fashion, and no more frequently.

Indeed, the slower speeds involved usually make the stupid behaviour more of an annoyance than a danger...unlike the high speed antics of a car.

I bet things are different in NYC. People here are extremely self-centered and ignorant of how their actions affect others.

Adam

+1

It's not like there's a cager gene and a cyclist gene that make's one an idiot and the other one not. People are people whether they're in a car or on a bike. You'll see both do dumb things. I've done dumb things. Putting me on a bike doesn't make it any less likely that I'm going to make a bad decision from time to time.

And this effect is greater amongst cyclists than the driving population?

Something else you can send your family - Cyclists live longer

I really think so. Of course, I don't have any data to back it up, it's just my observations as both a driver and a cyclist IMHO cyclists in NYC ride like that because they know they can get away with it and/or they think of themselves as pedestrians rather that vehicle operators. It's not respect for others what keeps people from braking the laws (again, in NYC) but the fear of punishment. Cops are more likely to ticket car drivers for traffic violations that cyclists. I never heard of cyclists getting a ticket for driving the wrong way or without lights. On occasion NYPD does these one-day crackdowns at dangerous intersections and tickets cyclists for running red lights.

Adam

Do you think there really are more cyclists riding like idiots than drivers driving, or is that bad driver behaviour has already become so commonplace and acceptable (like speeding). However I imagine that in NYC its too congested to get away with things like speeding but I'm sure that once gaps open up there is lost time to be made up

of course it's become acceptable (or at the very least nobody wants to point a finger at themselves when there's a problem, it has to be caused by someone else)

This is true. I can honestly say that I always stop for stop signs, stop lights, yield when I should yield, etc... I'm pretty anal about following the laws when there's no reason not to and get frustrated when others don't. However, I'm also not above pulling a move like hopping a curb if I deem it reasonable to do so. Such as, I need to in order to feel/be safe.

I just don't see the comparison in the craziness I see from cyclists and motorists. I know where I can go if I want to see cyclists run red lights. But I've seen dangerous road-rage fed borderline-violent behavior from motorists. Just because I slowed somebody down. Those few precious seconds are gone, and because of that we will never have a cure for cancer -- what was I thinking?

If I'm going around a blind corner, can see a car coming and some idiot is clearly going to try to pass me, I put my open hand down in the "slow" signal. I think that works less than half the time. There was one instance this year where the guy ignored me, and ran the car going the other way into the ditch. Even then there was a good likelihood for a head-on collision. I have a hard time imagining trying to pass on a blind corner much less if someone put their hand out to try to get me to slow down.

Actually it's quite easy because cagers are directing several tons weight. Just like pilots they present a far greater danger, therefore they should (and are) held to a higher standard.

Whenever there is any kind of incident and a cyclist is involved, it's ALWAYS the cyclists fault. Just like pit bulls.