Brand / Cult
 

From the time I've spend reading the forums the brands with the biggest cult like following seem to be Rivendell first, followed by Surly. As I seek to purchase a bike this honestly has an impact on my thinking. I'm not sure I will pay what it cost to own a Rivendell. But I've found I really like both the Jamis Aurora and the Surly LHT. The Surly though seems to have a cult following which leads me to believe I'd be most satisfied with that. I've not seen any Jamis cultish following which makes me wonder why.

I guess I'm wondering how much of the culture of a brand effects your purchase? Also I get why Rivendell has a cult following with Grant Peterson, Rivendell Reader and the Philosophy behind it (Love it by the way). But why Surly? If you are one of the crazies, why? What is so great about Surly? Is there some Surly Reader I've never heard of? Some personality I've missed?

Having said this, I understand I should purchase the bicycle that I like best after trying them all out, but I really believe there is a connection between how you feel about the brand and how you ultimately feel about the bicycle itself.

I don't get the Sury love either. Their bikes seem overpriced for what you get and lack variety in terms of the features available.

I tend to go against the grain of cult followings. If it's all the rage, my feeling is that the price is inflated. I have no experience with the Jamis Aurora. I have a few friends who ride Surly Long Haul Truckers. They really like the feel of the frames. One friend describes it as feeling like a Cadillac.

For a while, I was lusting after the LHT myself. I can see buying one down the road, but with the exposure I've had to them, I have kind started to view them as just another bike.

I think you hear about Surlys more than Jamis bikes more because Surlys tend to be built up from a raw frame. I think they started out this way- you buy the frame and do a custom build around it. Now you can buy built-up Surlys, but a lot of people still do the build up. When that happens, the buyer has to plan things out- what components, wheels, etc.- and that can lead to a lot of chatter for each bike. I think this chatter contributes to the cult following thing. I think Jamis bikes generally come as built up bikes, so there is no agonizing or debating about what would be the best components for an Aurora. You just buy it and Ride it.

Rivendell has the same thing going on in terms of selling the frames and then building up from there. Surlys, though, are utilitarian- understated colors, graphics, and frame details. Rivendells have livelier paint schemes, classic throwback graphics, and embellished lugwork. In addition to the utility, Rivendells are also works of art and they can command more money for that.

Jamis is a full-line bicycle company. they produce bikes made out of various materials, steel, aluminum and carbon fiber. They are mainstream. Surly and Rivendell only sell steel frames. They are mass producers of boutique bikes, and both companies have brand loyal followings. If you want to call that a cult, then yeah, they have cult followings.

Emotions play a big part in what we do and buy, and people use facts to justify their emotions whenever they buy something. The cult following your referring to is just another expression of our emotions.

I don't follow a brand solely on a cult status, but I will stay with it if it's reasonably priced, readily available, and of a decent quality to stand the rigors of my daily commuting.

I have no idea who the top executives at a company like Trek are but I imagine they are "executives". It's hard for me to imagine anyone at Surly looking remotely like an executive. In my mind at least, they are people who ride bikes nearly every day like I do. They design their bikes for that niche. In that sense, the Surly people seem like one of us.

Now I'm sure the people at Jamis, Trek, Giant, etc. really like bikes but they are all over the place in terms of the types of bikes they make. There doesn't seem to be anything that really ties their models together, no underlying philosophy to use your terms. There's not much to distinguish an entry level road bike from Trek from an entry level road bike from Giant.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Rivendell and Surly both make steel bikes. Steel has a cult following of its own.

Personally I don't really have a brand loyalty but I get why Surly and Rivendell do. Neither one of them produce bikes that are really aimed at me at this point in my life. Maybe when I get a little older, care less about performance, and have a lot more disposable income, I'd find their bikes more appealing. On the other hand, I also like bikes built out of something that doesn't rust and that's not likely to change. ;)

It's easier to develop a cult following when you are targeting a particular group of customers rather than having a wide variety of products to try to appeal to everybody.

Doohickie you did good job describing each company, that does help it make sense.

When I say cult, in this context it is a good thing.

I had not considered that Jamis makes bikes out of everything. I kinda like the Surly as the poor man's Rivendell, I also like that there is a cult following, but I wish they would release the LHT in colors like the Atlantis, Hillborne, etc. Really I would just like to see a few nostalgic colors like the olive green, a light blue, understated orange, etc.

I suppose I really want to buy into the Rivendell Philosophy at an affordable price. Surly seems like the best option. $1195 for a LHT vs $2200 for a Sam Hillborne. I can reason what a dumb way this is to buy a bike but it still carries a great deal of power over my purchase.

The LHT frame geometry is pretty much the same as the Riv. Atlantis. So if you can live without the lugs(except on the forks) i feel its a poor mans Atlantis. Oh and yes it rides like a Caddillac. Its kinda unassuming,so doesnt really attract unwanted attention theft wise etc. Even the graphics are removable,not cleared over. And it just rolls stable. Its a tank. Just handles and feels predictable when riding. And Surly are all steel, as someone has said already. Its an old school bike that rides and handles like my old bikes way back in the day did.
The other two mentioned below just dont feel the same.
Grant actually gives Kudos to the Surly LHT in some of his comments.
I think the Jamis is a nice bike,i hear they ride very well in steel,but it didnt quite have that look. Dont want brifters, too modernized for the look i like, and gearing not what i wanted etc.
Treks 520 is also up there but again just didnt feel the same when riding. Top tube too sloped for me. Dont want fancy paint (metallic)

I can see calling Rivendell overpriced but Surly. Come on, they're one of the most reasonabley priced frameset/bikes out there.

FWIW, my SO has an Aurora Elite - bought it in September of last year - and he loves it. It's a good mix of components at the price he paid, and it looks sleek and rides well. (Although not as well as my Sherpa 30 with 853 tubing). We did look at Surlys, but they are expensive here in Canuckistan. He gets lots of double-takes as people try to figure out what bike it is. Surlys are good, solid bikes, but a bit over-hyped IMO.

The Cross Check is the only frame in its category that has horizontal dropouts. I bought it for the dropouts.

Buy or build yourself a Surly and find out why we are what we are;) Read this http://www.surlybikes.com/blog/

Here is a pic of the execs at surly http://surlybikes.com/blog/2284/

I have several Surly bikes, and I don't appear to be in the minority of Surly owners that have more that one. For me it's always been about the build. I like to tinker with stuff. I always have. It's how I learn about things that interest me. I buy the Surly frames not because of any cult, but because they are affordable. I know that's a relative term that depends greatly on your income level, but the fact of the matter is I don't spend so much on the frames that I obsess over them. I use frame saver on all of them and then I ride them. Rain, or shine it doesn't matter. Over the last 4 years my Surly bike have rolled up over 12,000 miles, and are still going strong.

Surly bikes are liked because they are practically made, sensible bikes that are very inexpensive. There's nothing special about them, except in that they largely eschew the sort of marketing-driven nonsense that plagues most bike companies these days.

It's odd, but it's actually pretty tough to buy a normal steel bike with proper clearances and braze-ons from many major manufacturers. Of course you can go custom, or Rivendell, but they are expensive. Surlys are made in Taiwan, and TIG-welded, which keeps costs down.

They're smart bikes. I really want a Pacer.

Surly caters to gearheads. And their complete bikes are no-nonsense bombproof. They do go mid-level w/ bombproof tech rather than a mix of mid-low of the latest/greatest. Favor strength/durability over... well, anything (weight, tech)

I don't really care about brand. I'll buy what's a good value. I admit that several of the Surly frames look nice. I'm not sure I'd buy any of their prebuilds though, none of them are really all that close to my ideal bike.

Recently I've seriously looked at REI bikes, but that's because they're extremely good value for money, especially with the 20% discount sale going on now. I'd probably wind up changing things on any bike that I bought, at least to get it ready for commuting; fenders, racks, lights, etc. and maybe changing a component or two (at least the saddle; whatever my primary bike is will get the Brooks saddle on it).

I agree with that. The Jamis Aurora is a sensible bike, but I've never seen it in any local shop. No local shop that I know of sells the Surly LHT either. It seems like local shops only carry racing bikes, full suspension mountain bikes, or comfort bikes that are all completely impractical for commuting moderately long distances.. it depends, of course, on what you want to do with the bike, but for commuting I prefer drop bars, fenders, wide range of gears, and braze ons for racks. Any bike that allows those things would be good for me.

Ok, like we expected them to be riding Huffy's ?

I don't get the Surly love either. It's like buying a Buick. Just as modern and just as fast.

Oh, come now - the no-nonsense attitude is precisely how Surlys are marketed. There is definite, deliberate marketing in the image of Surly bicycles. Their message is, basically, "Hey, you - we know that you're a regular person who just wants an affordable, durable, quality bike that you can ride every day. You don't have illusions of grandeur or pretension to great speed, power or wealth. Well, we make the bike that you want."

There's nothing wrong with that, and my LHT is a fantastic bike that has proven to be very adaptable as I've had it set up for touring, as a countryside commuting bike and now as an urban commuting bike. But Surly sales are just as driven by marketing as are Jamis sales. It's kind of silly to deny that.

Marketing is okay if it's honest.

Marketing a Madone to the masses is not.

I have a couple Surlys on my wishlist -- an Instigator and a Big Dummy. The 'Gator, because I see it as a bombproof HT that will handle all I can throw at it (which gets less every year, 50+, y'know); the BD, because utility riding is just endemic to my life; there's not an alternative that I will accept.

Most of the rest out there are actually the the "niche" bikes -- they target a specific activity, like mountain biking, or they target an income group (the fitness yups); their hooks are the frame materials, geometry tricks, and bling parts. It's the consumer-driven "Joneses" side of the business.

The Riv's, the Surly's, are about the lifestyle -- a person that rides as part of their life, not as a hobby or for bragging rights. They are targeting the market most of us SHOULD be in -- unless you're more about the latest and greatest than you are about what will still be there 10-15-20 years from now, still hauling your goodies from A to B.

Now, having said that, I will give up my Dakar XLT when the thing falls apart under me. When it comes to all-around utility, from path to street to trail, from raggedly lovable old sidewalks that would break Lance's bike, to oversized curbs at the top of an uphill, to the detours I have to make through fields and yards, my Dakar can't be beat. And it supports my bad back in a friendly way. And when the day comes that I get a wishlist bike, it will have to have a suss post, it will have X.9 or X.0, even, disc brakes, and MT. riser bars. My parts list is already together, only changeable as needed to fit the frame.

I agree -- marketing a Madone to the masses is silliness. But it can work in America, as we as a people are star-struck. That's why the blingy, near-useless $5K roadies sell more than they should -- people would rather spend a weekend with Megan Fox than they would a lifetime with, say, a pre-fame Rachael Ray.

There are shops that specialize in "touring", but they are few and far between. I happen to live near one (Harris Cyclery) and I was able to "test ride" a Surly Cross Check, a Jamis Aurora and a Bianchi Volpe, all of which fit your definition of "sensible commuting bikes" (which happens to be my definition as well).

In the end, I found a used Cross Check on Craig's list, but of course I've had to spend considerable time and effort fixing it up the way I want it. If I'd bought a complete bike from the shop, it would be been a bit more expensive, but I would have been out on the road more quickly.

I'm sure that for many people, the "tinkering" aspect is important. Bicycles are pretty simple mechanical devices, and with a few tools and some common sense, you can learn to maintain and modify them.

If what you like is to ride fast and you have the money then I don't see how a $4K roadie is any more useless than a $4K Riv. Having fun is OK too. If life were all about utility it would suck pretty bad.

Marketing to the masses? How many people even know what a Madone is? It's not like they sell them at Walmart.

I have a Surly and KHS, I like them both, mostly because of dropouts and tire clearences. Very basic and simple frames with no BLING, no fancy colours or labels to attract attention, and that's the way I like it. For me it's all about function, utility and simplicity. I think I'll be loyal to those two brands (frames) for a long time to come. I also like Salsa, Kona, Masi, because they still make frames with horizontal dropouts and track ends.

Wow. Looks like most of the thread responses are pretty much what I would have said about Rivendell and Surly :D

I like the Rivendell philosophy myself, but the bikes from them are too expensive. I bought a Long Haul Trucker instead, and it certainly rides like a Cadillac :)

My bike doesn't like it when I try to push it to the limit, though, and it doesn't take corners well :( Now I want an agile speedster on top.

Here is what *I* like about Surly's bikes/frames:

-Steel frames. I tend to accidentally abuse my bikes a bit more than I'd like to (drops, crashes, etc.), so I would be uncomfortable with carbon fiber. As for aluminum, the bikes I've test ridden (and I've test ridden quite a lot of alu-bikes) have all felt "dead" to me. Yes, steel can be heavier than most other materials, but as someone who's 60-70 lbs. overweight, I don't see the point in getting a lightweight frame. Excess weight should be taken off of the rider before the bike. My LHT has already taken quite a few spills due to my inattentiveness, but the frame and fork still look good as new. As for the saddle, shifters, brake levers...well... :(:o:p
-Wide Tire Clearance. I like riding on wider tires than most people so that I don't feel all the bumps, cracks, and potholes in the road. 700x28's are plenty narrow enough for me, thanks. This also has to do with my weight, as I mentioned above.
-Relatively inexpensive frames (when you compare them with framesets from other companies...)

It really has nothing to do with a "cult" or anything for me. I am sure there are other people who like Surly bikes for the same reasons I do.

futuregrace, there's no need to follow trends or cults. Just pick the bike you like riding the most. The point is to find a bike that's so fun that you want to ride it all the time, instead of something that just has a cult following, or is super-practical. I sort of made that mistake with my Surly, ya know :o I think I should have gotten a Cross-Check or a Redline 925 instead. Those were way more fun on the test ride, but I wanted my touring bike, dang it.

Reasonably priced for what they are, but they are still pretty darned expensive. There's the statement that Surly is the poor man's Rivendell. Honestly, I see both companies as elitist vintage bikes. Personally I'd rather just get the real thing: an older vintage bike. It might be that once my sons are out of the house and supporting themselves (like that will ever happen) I might be more interested in getting one of those elitist bikes. But I'm happy with my old junk for now.

I could have gotten an A Homer Hilsen frame for $500 from a friend. I turned him down and he ended up selling it for more than twice that on CL. Yeah, it was a nice frame, but I'd rather have a bike I can unobtrusively lock up outside the store or the bar or whatever, confident that no one is really going to covet it while I'm in there.

Surly is a division of one of the biggest bike companies in North America - Quality Bicycle Parts. QBP is the biggest distributor of bike parts in the U.S. They also make/import Salsa, Civia, Dimension, and probably some other stuff as well.

They've done a great job putting good bikes on the market, and also marketing themselves as a "cult," when they actually are run by a "conglomerate."

Don't know much about the Cult following of either the Jamis or Surly. However I am a proud owner of a Jamis exile and Surly LHT. Both steel bikes, however ones a hardtail and the other is a touring bike.

I like Jamis, and when I was shopping for a touring bike the Aurora was on the top of the list to look at. There were just some things about it that made the LHT the smarter choice for me (and color/scheme was definetly one of the deciding factors as well as maybe novelty).

Just get the bike that is the smarter choice for you based on your riding. And if you can't decide get the one with the prettier color(s).

Does Huffy make chairs? Am I missing something here?:innocent: