bhdavis1978

Hey all,

It's been a while since I've posted here, but I've been bike commuting to and from work (6.5 miles each direction) 5 days a week since March and I love it. Although I've often started adding an extra few miles on my way home from work to just cruise around a bit. I started last fall, but had to stop when I was knocked off my bike by a car and I managed to get a fractured pelvis- and then it got too cold and icy to bike in the winter (I live in Saint Paul, MN).

My question today is pretty straight forward- do I upgrade my bike, replacing the parts of it I'm not totally happy with, or just get a different bike to replace it?

I'm currently riding a 2008 Jamis Commuter 1. It has 700c x 38 tires on it, a suspension seatpost, and front shocks. I added fenders and rack to attach my panniers to.

What I'm unhappy about are the handle bars, the pedals, and the gearing.

When I bought the bike, I thought being upright was more comfortable than leaning over- but after riding for a while, I've changed my opinion. I've lowered the front handle bars as much as I can, pushed them forward as far as they'll go, and it still feels more upright than I'd like it to be, most of the time. Plus, I don't like how wide the handlebars are. I've been finding myself actually putting my hands on the bars beside the stem, because it's just uncomfortable to have my arms spread out to the edge of the bars where the breaks and shifters are. My option here would seem to be to replace my current handlebars with a some butterfly handlebars, and replace the shifters too. Right now they're grip shifters, which woudln't work very well (I don't imagine) on butterfly handlebars. I'd probably also have to replace the hand breaks too.

I also would like to replace the pedals with clipless pedals, and get some shoes to go with it. I try to spin a little bit when I can, by pulling back on the pedal with my foot- but my feet tend to slip off the pedals, and that's kind of uncomfortable and scary.

I'm also not thrilled with the gearing. It's a 21 speed, and the range of gearing seems idiosyncratic. It seems like there are lots of times when I'd like some more low end gears for climbing hills- because I either feel I have to pedal to hard, or I have to pedal too fast. I can adjust it a bit, by changing the front chain ring and the rear at the same time, but it's kind of frustrating. And, with grip shifts, I occasionally accidentally shift into the granny gear, which is really annoying.

I think this bike is fine for just riding around on with my wife, but I'm not totally happy with it for commuting. It's not terrible, but there are a bunch of things that I'd like to change.

I've been sort of imagining a touring or cyclocross bike- preferably steel, with 27 gears, and I want it to have drops. The front chainring would be something like 48/38/28, and I think I'd like the rear to be something in the range of 12 to 34. I'd want to be able to put something like 700x32 tires on it, and I'd like braze ons for installing a rack on the back for my panniers.

What do you guys think?

Brad

ratell

Given that you just don't want better components you want a different type of bike I think you're better off getting a new bike and keeping your existing one for riding around with your wife.

xtrajack

You probably should replace it. After all a first bike is to show you what you want and need in your next one. Sounds like it did it's job. (Don't forget the N+1 rule)

bhdavis1978

What is the N+1 rule?

BassNotBass

It's the formula for how many bikes a person needs where N is the number of bikes one presently owns.

alan s 

Replace. You're wasting money upgrading that bike. Sounds like you'd be changing almost everything. Now that you have a better idea what you need, your money would be better spent on a completely new bike. However, until you have a budget in mind, it's hard to make any useful suggestions.

agarose2000

I'm actually not sure you'll get a stock bike that has significantly lower gearing if you've already got a 21-speed; triples (three rings up front) tend to have some of the lowest gearing you can get, especially for commuters. You can run true mountain-bike gearing which will be lower, but not a whole lot lower than a 21 speed.

I suspect you might be happier on a true road bike or road-style touring bike with fender eyelets. The true road bike is significantly lighter, so it'll be easier to climb with and also easier to accelerate to high speed, which sounds like what you're looking for. Also, they have lower body position, which is more aero, and also what you're looking for. Clipless pedals have nothing to do with the bike itself, as they can be easily added to any bike, and aren't relevant to your bike choice.

Unfortunately, these bikes tend to cost more than your Jamis Commuter as well.

But still, my intro-level Giant Defy 3 road bike, which is a "relaxed-geometry" road bike, is light/fast enough to race with, yet still has rear rack eyelets to make it a tour/commuter if desired. It's a surprisingly fast bike, and climbs well - you'd definitely notice a significant difference compared to your Jamis. Got mine for $695 at an LBS last year. Also note that tires are much narrower on road bikes - this makes them go a LOT faster, but won't feel as stable on poorly surfaced roads. I'd still take my narrow-tire road bike any day over my fat-tire bikes due to the enormous speed differences between them - I have no problems whatsoever handling the road bike on any paved road, even bad ones. This is probably as low as you can get with a pure road bike in terms of LBS cost - but it's an excellent bike.

bhdavis1978

I re-read what I originally posted, and I realized that I wasn't being sufficiently clear. It's not so much that the lowest gearing that I have isn't sufficiently low for climbing- if anything it's a bit too low. The biggest problem with the gearing is that the amount of difference between the gears is too great. It often feels that the gearing options I have accessible to me either require me pedalling faster than is comfortable, or I have to stand get out of the saddle. It's not like it's a big deal, and I can live with it- it's just that it isn't ideal. At the same time, I it often feels that on flats, even on the 48 chainring on the front and the 13 on the rear, that I just can't get going as fast as I'd like to- I have to start pedalling too quickly. It's not like that happens too often, it's that the gearing feels strange and idiosyncratic- and rarely comfortable.


Yeah, that's what I think I would like- a road-style touring or cyclocross bike that I can attach fenders and a rack too. I realize that clipless pedals have nothing to do with the bike itself- except that I don't necessarily want to spend the money on clipless pedals and shoes for a bike I'm not entirely happy with right now, and put that money towards getting a different bike, which is better set up for my purposes. I sort of felt like my options where either upgrade my current bike (which would've meant new handlebars and new pedals), or put that money towards a new bike. I think I'd probably be happier with a new bike that has the geometry I'm looking for, with drop handle bars, etc and non-clipless pedals, than clipless pedals on my current bike- but I can understand why that would've been confusing.

Yeah, I realize that- and I'm prepared to spend some money to get the bike that I want. I use my bike to commute to and from work 5 days a week, and I plan on doing that through out the year, until it gets too cold and snowy to do it safely (which is one of the reasons I am contemplating a cyclocross frame, so I can put cyclocross tires on it in the late fall / early winter when it first starts snowing)

But still, my intro-level Giant Defy 3 road bike, which is a "relaxed-geometry" road bike, is light/fast enough to race with, yet still has rear rack eyelets to make it a tour/commuter if desired. It's a surprisingly fast bike, and climbs well - you'd definitely notice a significant difference compared to your Jamis. Got mine for $695 at an LBS last year. Also note that tires are much narrower on road bikes - this makes them go a LOT faster, but won't feel as stable on poorly surfaced roads. I'd still take my narrow-tire road bike any day over my fat-tire bikes due to the enormous speed differences between them - I have no problems whatsoever handling the road bike on any paved road, even bad ones. This is probably as low as you can get with a pure road bike in terms of LBS cost - but it's an excellent bike.[/QUOTE]

A lot of the roads were I live have a lot of pot holes in them, so I don't want to go with tires that are too narrow. I'll take a look at the bike you suggested. My wife is going away at the end of July / start of August, and I was planning on goigng to a few LBS and checking out some of the options. I was contemplating something like a Jamis Aurora, a Fuji Commuter, Trek 520, Bianchi Volpe, etc.

I think my budget will be somewhere in the $1000 to $1500 range, but my wife will have significant input into it, unless I wanna sleep on the couch!

EKW in DC

IMHO, it depends on your budget. If you've got the $, I'd say go for it and get a new bike. Having ridden, my hybrid regularly for well over a year, I know where you're coming from, and if I had the coin, I'd buy a Surly LHT w/o thought right now.

Sadly, I don't currently have the budget for that. I recently made the switch to butterfly bars, and they've given a new lease on life to my interest in my current bike. They've given me a much less upright riding position, and I've been QUITE happy with them. Butterfly bars can be had for approx. $30 online (w/ shipping). Nashbar had theirs back in stock last week IIRC, so they may be even cheaper. Wallbike has some nice ones I almost bought before I happened across my bars, as does Sheldon Brown's old outfit (out of stock last I checked, though). You could pick up a pair of trigger shifters/brake levers like came stock on my bike for pretty cheap ($35 at linked site, e.g.) and you're ready to go. The swap on both the bars and the shifters/brake levers is something you could likely tackle on your own or w/ the help of a bike co-op if you're less adventurous/mechanically inclined.

By all means, if you want a new bike and can afford it, go for it. Don't let me stop you, but if $'s an issue or you want to see what you can make out of your current ride, I'd say it's worth a shot.

Edit: You posted while I was writing the above response. Seeing your budget, I'd so go test ride some bikes and see what you like. I'd add Surly LHT and Cross Check to your list of possible new rides. It might even be worth sleeping on the couch over!

Still, consider the butterfly trekking bar option, too. If nothing else, it might be a cheap way to keep you happier with your bike while you "buy" some time to set aside a little more $$$ for a new ride.

pathdoc

I wouldn't replace but simply add a road or cross bike to your collection.

tjspiel

Try a couple of touring and cyclocross bikes to see if you like them. The shifting on drop bar bikes can take some getting used to. Also I'd add the Surly CrossCheck to your list of bike to try. It uses bar-end shifters which some people prefer.

Upgrading an existing bike can also be kind of fun if you decide to go that route and like doing your own work. Seven speed cassettes aren't that expensive. You could get one with the gears closer spaced than what you have now. Some of them can be disassembled so that you can create your own custom combinations.

I often do a weekly group ride and we usually hit a couple of the nastier hills in St. Paul, - Ohio Street and Ramsey. This is on light and unloaded road bikes which of course makes it easier but my largest cog in the back is a 26 and my smallest chain ring is a 39. The idea is to punish ourselves so most people would want lower gearing on those hills. Still, you should be able to come up with a combination of 7 cogs that suit your needs.

Once we get closer to winter, check out the winter cycling forum. It's not for everybody but there's a fair number of people in the Twin Cities that ride year round.

alan s 

I'd look at Kona Jake the Snake cross. Aluminum frame with carbon fork, and 105 components make for a nice package. It may be a little toward the high end of your price range. I tested one a few months ago, and was close to buying, but decided to do a custom build with an existing frame. I don't like the bar end shifters myself, so would stay away from the Surly complete builds, but the frame itself is solid if you want to build up yourself.

bhdavis1978

Haha- I like that! An old forum I use to frequent called Head-Fi had a saying they'd welcome new members with which was "Welcome to Head-Fi, sorry about your wallet", but I think I prefer this N+1 better.

Money is always an issue- my wife and I are trying to save up a nest egg- either to use as a down payment whenever we move to our forever (or rather long-term) city, or to use to help supplement our income when we have kids, so that she can afford to stay home and look after them (i.e. leave the work force, at least temporarily). I'm a junior postdoc, which means my salary isn't great, and it'd be pretty difficult to support two adults and a child on it. That said, my wife (who is a teacher) is going to be getting a end of the year bonus because her classes test scores were good, and she's said that she'd like to share that with me. She suggested I use it towards getting an iPad (which I'm contemplating, and have been drooling over for a long time), but upon further reflection, as cool as they are, I'm not sure that I'd use it enough to make it a worthwhile investment (I imagine I'd use it to read pdf files, news papers, etc on the bus on the way to and from work in the winter, when bike commuting isn't an option) and in bed at night. On the other hand, electronic gadgets like that almost immediately lose their value, but a bike wouldn't. Plus, I can do most of that stuff already with my computer and printing off papers to read on the bus. So, yeah- money is definitely an issue, but in this case it may be surmountable. Also, my wife has already indicated that she thinks that getting me a better bike for commuting with (and just generally touring around on), is something she's okay with. She suggested that we wait until after we move (which will likely be sometime around August 2011). The big issue is, it's unclear where we'll be moving to. Possible locales include Saskatoon, Saskatchewan; Houston, Texas; Oxford, UK, and Colorado Springs, Colorado. I don't think she's necessarily too keen on having to pack up an additional bike of money for the move either.

There is a local bike co-op where I could take my bike and get some help putting a new set of handle bars, breaks and shifters onto it. I could probably do it myself (I am mechanically inclined), but I don't necessarily have the necessary tools to do it. Any suggestions as to where to go about buying butterfly handle bars?

Along the same lines, how difficult would it be to replace the rear cog, and upgrade it to an 8 or 9 speed? I'd also have to replace the deraileur at that point too, wouldn't I? And at that point I'd be getting into money I imagine.

I've looked at both of those frames, and I like them. I don't understand the benefits / drawbacks of vertical dropouts or horizontal dropouts for the rear tires, or necssarily understand the differences in geometry between them- but they appeal to me. Plus, I think I'd like to buy an American made frame, and I was under the impression that Surly frames weren't made in the US?

Yeah, I appreciate your input. I will definitely go around and take a look at some butterfly bars, and price out how much it'd cost me to do that.

Oh definitely, I completely agree. I'm not really looking to replace it, but rather add to my bike collection- I just wanted a brief subject line, and I couldn't think of a similarly short title that would capture that.

That's a good suggestion too. As I asked earlier in this very post, in response to EKW, how much of an option would it be to move to a different cog? I imagine it'd require upgrading the deraileur too, and at that point it would seem like I might be getting into some money ($50 for the cog, maybe $150 for a derailuer? I'm just making up numbers here, fyi)

I'm 32 years old, approximately 6'0 tall, and 230 lbs. In other words, I'm fat. When I was a teenager, I was about 180 lbs, but I have Tourette Syndrome. To make a long story short, this really upset my mom a great deal, and so I went on anti-psychotic medication to treat the symptoms, and my weight exploded up to in excess of 260-270 lbs, in addition to losing almost all of my cognitive function (just as an example, I went from having 100% in Grade 11 physics, to not being able to add vectors in AP physics the following year, because I didn't understand what addition meant), and I've never really managed to be able to lose all the weight. I can get down to a low of about 220 lbs if I really kill it, but then I seem to plateau for months and months, even with eating really carefully and exercising really rigorously (at one point, I was running 1.5 hours / day, weight lifting an hour a day, and then doing various different aerobics classes). Plus, my knees are really bad now from running, so I need good gearing or I'm just miserable.

Thanks, I will definitely check that out. I'd really like to be able to ride longer through the year- taking the bus sucks, cause I've gotta live by their schedule- and even if I make all the connections perfectly, it's still much faster to ride than take the bus. And it's a lot cheaper!

From what I've read, I have the impression that a steel frame is going to be more forgiving of road noise than aluminum- will a carbon fork really absorb a lot of it?

I'm not going to buy anything in the next week or two- I always like to do a lot of research into any purchase I make, and I consider asking for advice on forums as a good starting place. Once my wife goes out of town, I'll spend some time checking out the LBS, and going for test rides.

Thanks a lot everyone, I appreciate your time and thoughts. Feel free to keep them coming!

Brad

tjspiel

Your existing derailleur is probably fine. If you go from 7 to 8/9/10 speeds you'll need a different shifter and a new rear wheel. As long as you stay with 7 you can just change the cassette.

A lot of different factors determine ride quality. If you rule out aluminum/carbon just because you've heard that aluminum gives a harsher ride, you'll be missing out on some bikes that may be very good choices for you. I've owned several different bikes, -most of them steel. The one aluminum/carbon fiber bike I've had falls in the middle/upper end of the bunch as far as ride quality goes.

Make your choices based on test rides.

Trek/Lemond used to make a combination steel/carbon frame. Given all the people that worry so much about carbon's durability, I got a little chuckle when a friend recently told me that he cracked one of these frames and it was the steel down tube that had cracked. To Trek's credit, they replaced it for free with a Titanium/Carbon frame. They didn't have any more steel/carbon frames.

EKW in DC

Online:

https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/handlebars/index.html

https://www.wallbike.com/components/handlebars.html

https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...1_10000_200388

Or your LBS may have some or be able to order some for you...

Changing the cassette is a 2 minute job w/ the proper tools... Of course, you'd need a shifter w/ corresponding number of index stops. The Shimano type ones I linked to in my first post are available in 8 speed flavors, too.

Again, all this a job the co-op could most likely help you with. They may even have some used parts that would work for such an upgrade...

Good luck!

rumrunn6

... when in doubt ... do both ...

bhdavis1978

Yeah- that's true, but I'd have to buy a new shifter to go with the new handlebars anyway, so it's not like it'd be an extra expense over going to new handlebars, it's just a different part.

They've got a few inexpensive courses I can take too. I may go and do that, and if I am somewhat competent at it, maybe I'll do some volunteering there too.

This is a technical question, but would I have to get a different rear wheel for an 8 and a 9, and a 10? (i.e. does each size cog have a corresponding wheel, or is it that a 8 or 9 speed cog would be compatible with the same wheel, but that it's unlikely to be compatible with my current wheel). There isn't really any big reason for wanting to know this, except curiousity.

Okay, that sounds like very reasonable advice (and I feel like I should've known better too- that sort of answer almost always seems to be true- idiomatic answers are usually convenient, but rarely hold a lot of truth).

I've seen videos of carbon forks breaking- but I guess any piece of steel could have a hairline fracture in it that could give way too. That is pretty funny!

ratell

Take a look at the Masi Speciale CX $1200 https://www.masibikes.com/steel/speciale-cx/ that's what I bought because it's so pretty.

or the Kona ***** Tonk $899 which is steel with a carbon fork. Quite light and fast.
https://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=*****tonk

tjspiel

You don't really need a whole different wheel to go from 7 to 8, 9 or 10 speeds, but you have to change the freehub body and re-dish the wheel. I realize that that might be just gibberish to you. Anyway, it might be cheaper just to get another wheel.

The basic problem is that the part of the wheel that the cassette slides on to needs to be bigger for 8, 9 and 10 speed cassettes. Since the cassette takes up more room, the "dish" of the wheel has to be different so the tire will still end up centered on the bike. Eight, 9, and 10 speed cassettes are all roughly the same width, the spacing between the cogs is just narrower so you don't have the same issue when going from 8 or 9 to 10 speeds. This is Shimano stuff I'm talking about. With Campy I'm not sure.

bhdavis1978

The Masi does look very pretty, I agree. The potential problem with both of those bikes, is that they don't appear to have anywhere I can attach fenders and a rack to put my panniers on.

Ahh, okay- that makes a lot of sense.

After spending some time looking at the butterfly bars- one of my first concerns is that it appears as though the closest hand position will be much closer than my current hand positions, and the furthest away is maybe only another 2" further out. Am I minimizing how much of a difference an extra 2" would be, or am I mis-estimating from pictures? Using EKW's estimate of how much it'd cost me to replace the handlebars and shifters (about $100), and just a quick check of the price of cassettes (about $50 to $60 for what seems to be a pretty decent 9 speed cog)- how much would a new rear tire, tube, and wheel cost? Would it be unreasonable to estimate that I could probably do this for about $250? If I added clipless pedals, that'd give me an extra $100 + something for shoes, so maybe $400 in total. In contrast, it seems like I'd need to spend at least $800 to get another bike to do what I want it to do, significantly better- and that still wouldn't have clipless pedals. From that perspective, it sort of seems like spending $250 to alter my current bike doesn't seem like a bad value. I could improve the bike that I have now (that I'm pretty happy with, except for the aforementioned issues), for about 20-30% of the cost of replacing it.

On the other hand, now I've spend $250-$400 on a bike and I'm still left with pretty low level components (I think I have a Shimano Altus rear deraileur, and some no-line Shimano front deraileur). Putting it that way, it seems maybe a little insane.

I suppose one thing I need to do, is go on a few test rides- just to see what I like.

Brad

EKW in DC

Yeah, good points. I was thinking about my wheel which I put a 4.5mm spacer on so I can use a seven speed cassette on an 8/9/10 speed freehub body. I guess a bike w/ a 7 speed cassette as a stock component would have a 7 speed freehub.

tjspiel

To be honest, I'm guessing he has a 7 speed freehub. It could be an 8/9/10 speed hub with a spacer or maybe even a freewheel.

ratell

They actually both take racks and fenders. The local bike shop here sells the Masi with road tires, fenders, and a rack for list price.

tjspiel

If you get a new rear wheel, you can keep the existing tire and tube. You could sell your old wheel/shifters on craigslist to offset some of the costs. Check online sources like Nashbar to see what another rear wheel would cost you. You might also have to add in the cost of new cables if your shifters and brakes end up positioned farther away from the frame.

When comparing costs between upgrading and buying new it's also worth considering the value of having a second bike or the ability to sell your current one if you decide you don't really need two.

I agree though that the best thing to do is test ride a few different bikes. Then you'll have a better idea if what you really want is another bike.

I think adding 2 inches of reach will make a big difference. My stem is a little too short and I've ordered one that's all of 10 mm longer.

EKW in DC

There's really a lot you can do with the butterfly bars in terms of adjustment. I find that the closest hand position is somewhat closer, but the way I installed my bars, that position is also much lower, so it tends to be close to a wash all things considered. In actuality, I think the lower position of that grip makes me less upright than my old 2"-ish riser bars did. When I ride, I do most of my cruising with my hands on the outsides of the bars or on one of the corners (front or back depending on mood/comfort/etc.)

In addition to changing the tilt on the bars, you can flip the bars over so that the closer in grips are relatively higher as opposed to dropping down.

Finally, you may consider trying a different length stem if the reach isn't quite what you want.

My bike had a 110mm adjustable stem on it, which I thought I might need to replace, but so far I feel at least as comfortable w/ the same stem as I did before. I may eventually change for aesthetic reasons, but I'll probably keep the same size, although that's neither here nor there.

I think just handelbars and shifters will be under $100 if you end up using the components I linked to and do the work yourself/at co-op, but we'll stick to 100 for estimation purposes...

100+50=150

I think it's reasonable, especially if you're not having to pay labor charges at an LBS and take on the lion's share of the work yourself (and/or with the co-op's help).

Still better than what I got (Tourney rear derailleur and no-name Suntour front derailleur) and I've got over 3,000+ happy miles out of my bike so far -all times of year rain or shine, light and dark. I keep tinkering and doing little upgrades and getting happier and happier. Still in for way less than I would have been for a nicer, newer bike, appealing as a new one may be. Plus, I'm constantly learning new things about bikes as I make the changes...

There's always that. You may ride something and know it's "the one".