tinfoilhat

I've been commuting 23 kilometres each way to downtown Vancouver on a Kona Dew Deluxe or a Giant OC3 for almost 3 months now after a layoff off about 15 years. The Kona is very comfortable (like riding a marshmallow) and I've added a rack and fenders so I'm ready to go for the winter. The Giant is a totally different animal, much faster and way more options for hand positions so it is the one to go to for longer rides on pavement, but it isn't designed to pack a load. Ultimately I'd like to get one bike that can fulfil the roles of commuter, light tourer, and mild off-road jaunts. I've been thinking that a cyclocross bike might be the ticket. There is clearance for racks and fenders, and the larger tires should give a more comfortable ride.

I was at a local bike shop the other day talking to the owner. When I told him what I was thinking he thought that it would work fine, but he very strongly suggested going to one with disk brakes. He said that the amount of braking involved in commuting in our weather would very soon wear out the rims with cantilever or centre pull brakes.

I love the disk brakes on the Kona, but I also am a tad afraid of their complexity. Pretty easy to maintain or fix rim brakes, especially if you are out in the boonies. How much credence should I give to his advice?

Thanks

tjspiel

I'd say if you live in a wet climate disk brakes are a good thing.

wolfchild

Disc brakes are great in wet and nasty weather. If you are afraid of complexity of disk brakes then I recommend some Avid BB7 mechanical disks, they are very simple and effective.

chasm54

Since you now have two bikes, why revert to having only one? 'cross bikes are great, and versatile, no doubt about it. But given that you now have a perfectly good commuter, and a road bike, why not make your next purchase a bike that complements rather than replaces them? A tourer, for example (the Kona Sutra has discs, if you like Kona's - nice bikes) or a MTB if off-road is what you want to do.

As for your question, discs certainly have advantages and they certainly do mean that your rims don't wear. I'm slightly surprised by the vehemence of the advice, though, given that it was my impression that Vancouver's winters aren't severe. In fact acccording to the stats they seem similar to here, and I commute with rim brakes without problems.

AdamDZ

Disclaimer: I'm a huge fan of disc brakes

Avid BB7 disks are very reliable. Once properly installed it's extremely unlikely that they will break en-route during this type of riding. They're designed for mountain biking, mud, grit, sand, lots more stress. Replacing pads is also very easy, it doesn't require taking the brakes apart or removing them. All you need to do is check the bolts periodically for tightness and and make small adjustements now and then as the pads wear out, which is also easy.

The only downside to disk brakes I can think of is that they squeak sometimes. You should also remove the pads when washing the bike to avoid any chemicals from getting on them. It's not critical, but I like to do that.

Cheap rim pads may harden in very cold weather lowering your breaking power. It happened to me. Since then, and for other reasons, I always replaced the stock pads with Koolstops, but eventually I stopped using rim brakes altogether. All my bikes have disc brakes. Disc brakes are less likely to accumulate any ice as well, since they will scrape off anything that gets between the rotor and the pads (metal on metal) while rubber pads can ice sometimes in extreme conditions.

Also, what I don't like about rim brakes: no matter how carefully and tightly you fix them, the pads may eventually move (twist) from the braking forces and start rubbing against the tire. Unless you give the brakes a quick inspection frequently you may miss that.

Juha

I'm in the meh camp regarding disc vs. rim brakes. I have both, and I've been able to stop when required, regardless of brake setup, and in pretty much all kinds of weather, including severe winter conditions. What is being said about disc brakes is true, you will get better modulation, less maintenance (although I haven't changed pads to the disc setup yet, so this remains to be seen for me) etc. Question is, will it make a huge difference? In my case, meh. There are a bunch of other things that dictate which bike I ride, brake type doesn't enter into that equation.

[edit] Disclaimer: I don't do any off-road stuff, just commuting, touring and utility cycling. [/edit]

--J

coldfeet

I also am a fan of disc brakes, have been running BB7s for a while, no adjustments yet except for cable.

As others have said, grotty Winters are where they really shine, ( Come over to Calgary , say, January? to see what I'm talking about. ) But at the moment, it's very Vancouver like here, and am enjoying the complete reliability of the discs.

They tend to squeal and howl when wet, until the use dries them off, but I'll put up with that for brakes that work, like NOW.

tsl

I like my disc brakes--Avid BB7s. Especially in the wet or the snow. I never have to guess how much power they've lost due to being wet, because they always work the same. It's one less thing to have to think about in adverse conditions.

When commuting, I don't always have the luxury of being able to begin braking in advance. If someone cuts me off, I need to brake now, not 20 feet from now, right effing now. Just yesterday, I had some yo-yo turn right in front of me--from the left-turn-only lane, with the left turn signal still on. Stuff like that, I don't want to squeeze the levers and have nothing happen for 20 feet. I won't live that long.

ItsJustMe

Yes, I won't consider a winter bike without disc brakes. They're very predictable, and they don't destroy rims. I ride 8 miles a day on gravel, so if the conditions are wet at all (including in the summer) rim brakes grind the rims down constantly.

Also in the winter, I've had rim brakes become almost useless when riding in freezing rain; unless I ride the brakes every minute or so the rims get covered with ice. Not a problem with discs.

Ease of maintenance is also a huge plus. It's actually far easier to adjust, they require less adjustment, and changing pads is easier too. (Avid BB7)

colleen c

I love my disc brake on my Hardrock and FS Novaro MTB. They have that feeling of solid grip instead of a softer grip type of sensation. Only time I don't recommend them is if are planning to remove the wheel from the forks such as transportating your bike on a roof rack. I had trouble getting them to center evenly so they don't rub or squeak. Playing with the tension on the QR helps and I have yet to try some of those QR that keeps the same tension everytime the rims are remove. Don't know if it just me or is this a common problem, but as a daily commuter bike where I do not have to remove the front wheel, I love disc brakes.

cyccommute 

I think it's a much more common problem then people let on. I have currently have only one disc brake equipped bike and have had only one in the past. One bike has Avid Juicy 7s and the other one had BB7. Both require recentering of the brake caliper if either wheel was removed.

I also help people at work with bike maintenance and have to deal with the same issue on their bikes. Sometimes the brake is so far off that the wheel won't turn a full turn. That's not a good thing when trying to grind up a steep hill.

alan s 

I remove my front wheel every day and have no issues with disc brake centering. Just need to make sure the axle is in the same position as it was when the disc brake was initially centered. The easiest way to do this is to put a small mark with nail polish on the fork dropout and axle.

Hydraulic disc brakes are even better than mechanical for power and modulation. They are virtually maintenance free as the system is completely sealed. The only limitation is that the bike needs to be more or less upright or you run the risk of air bubbles entering the lines, necessitating bleeding. Nonetheless, I turn my bike over at least once a week to swap wheels without any issues.

Just_Ryan

I've previously been on here saying that disc brakes are great, but V-brakes do the job fine. Since then, I had a rim sidewall give out on me on August 31, which you might remember was the wettest day in 5 years in Vancouver and the wettest day in August on record here. Now I have a different opinion I'm not sure how many kilometers I actually put on that set from my beater bike, since they were used, but the sidewalls were razor thin - I knew I only had a few days left on them, but I overestimated. On my fair weather bike I went through a rear rim in one year, and that bike stays inside on the worst 30 or so days of the year. I ride a bit over 30k/day. So the short story is that disc brakes will be a lot cheaper in the long run. I've had discs before - they're not complicated - I wouldn't worry about that. Also, get hydraulic if you can justify the cost, it's a huge upgrade in performance over cable discs.

We seem to have a tremendous build up of grit on our roads, and that all gets sloshed up onto the braking surface when it's wet. I don't know if that's a typical urban problem or a Vancouver thing. I do know that I swallow a few pounds of sand every morning riding over the Knight St bridge.

cyccommute 

I make sure that the wheel is in position each time I center the disc calipers when I work on them. It's also the first thing I check on a disc that is dragging. It doesn't seem to make much difference because the bikes end up with dragging brakes after wheel removal.

As for modulation, i.e. the ability to adjust brake pressure in a certain proportion, I've found discs to be the touchiest brakes around. They are either full on or full off with very little ability to adjust in between. Rim brakes take a lot of cable pull to go from off to a locked wheel. That's modulation.

Seattle Forrest

I love having disc brakes on my cyclocross bike. I broke my word and bought a road bike with rim brakes, but was pretty unhappy about it. They work as well when it's dry. In the rain, you need to wipe them off before hoping to actually use them, which means you need to begin the braking process earlier, which ultimately means it takes longer to stop, eg you have less stopping power. The discs will get soaked, but they work reliably in all weather conditions I've ever put mine to use in. For the record, we don't get a lot of snow in Seattle, and while I've been on the road while it's been falling, there hasn't been enough to really test this.

You get wonderful modulation on disc brakes, but this is true with good rim brakes, too.

The discs are very easy to adjust. After going through some pad on the front wheel and realizing I had less stopping power than I should, I was able to fix the issue at a red light. You just twist two red knobs ( one on each side ) of the braking surface.

I get a little nervous about taking the wheel off, though, as you have to make sure it's perfectly centered when you put it back on, or things won't work properly. Disc brakes apply the torque at the center of the wheel, which means your fork needs strength in different places. You can't just buy any carbon fork and expect (front) disc brakes to work with it. On the same note, I've heard that if you never check your stuff, the front brake can shake your quick release open over the course of several months. A friend of mine ( with disc brakes ) found that his had come loose on a ride once, although I have no idea if this was the cause.

alan s 

I said the axle needs to be in the same position as it was when the caliper was adjusted. Reread my post.

If your disc brakes are operating as you state, there is something wrong. I have used high quality hydraulic, low quality mechanical and everything in between, and have never experienced the "full on, full off" sensation you have. You should have a mechanic check out your brakes if they are operating that way.

Kojak

This is my commuter; I'm a big fan of disc brakes, especially in this corner of the world. I've worn down a set of rims to the point of failure once.... I don't want to do that again. I was lucky, and nothing locked up and the tire stayed seated on the bead. I'm not sure I'd be that lucky twice.

exile

I never had disc brakes and can't comment on their complexity or ease of use. I would probably get more opinions from people who ride in the conditions you are talking about.

A cyclocross or tourer usually make good all arounders. If you like the quicker handling and feeling with good ruggedness than probably a cross bike. If you like just a smooth and comfortable ride and ruggedness as well than probably a tourer.

I think you should consider more factors than just brakes.

xtrajack

All other things being equal--I would choose the one that has the disc brakes.

coldfeet

I have to say much the same, I've had the rear wheel off 4 times this week, front one twice, no problems with the brakes dragging, and I find the power easy to modulate, possibly easier than the rim brakes I have used. What brakes are you using cyccommute?

tinfoilhat

Well, it doesn't seem to be close. Disks win the day. I've been thinking about a tourer versus a cyclocross bike. Ultimately the choice will depend on the type of riding I find myself doing. I'm hoping to commute throughout the winter months, but I have no real idea about how I will fare when the conditions turn dire. The commute is an hour and there are some parts where I have no choice but to ride with some heavy traffic. A lot will depend on how I am able to cope with the lack of visibility caused by darkness and rain. I'm going to be bright yellow and covered in blinking lights, but we all know that no matter what we do cyclists remain invisible to some people.

BengeBoy 

I don't have any problem stopping any of my bikes in wet conditions in Seattle. None of them has discs.

Tons of people here love discs; a couple of shops warned me away from them based on the number that they take *off* of bikes because riders get tired of rubbing/squealing/etc. The wrench I trust most told me to stick w/what I had, so I did. No trouble stopping -- I haven't worn through a set of commuting rims yet but based on the wear of the current set I have I'm guessing I'll get 5,000-ish miles off of them.

katcorot

Glad to see im not the only "crazy person" who cycles year round in Vancouver. It's funny but I enjoy riding in snow and hoping like crazy we'll get some this year. My bikes just have rim brakes. I dunno if I could put up with the squealing i've witnessed from fellow cyclists disc brakes.

GriddleCakes

I maintain two full-time, year-round commuter bikes, one with disc (mine) and one with v-brakes (the lady's). After reading this thread, I checked the rims on the lady's bike, and they certainly look due for retirement (noticeable, deep concavity). They have about 15,000 miles on them; in all weather (rain, snow, ice, slush); in Bellingham, WA and Anchorage, AK. My rims have about 18,000 miles, in all weather, and have no wear beyond some scratches in the paint from the hook I hang the bike on. I replaced the pads on my front brake for the first time last month, and my rear brake still has plenty of pad left. I've never replaced just the rims before (new maintenance project! yay!), but somehow I don't think that it's going to be as easy as changing the pads in my disc brakes.

tinfoilhat, I think that you'll be happy with disc. Your shop was most assuredly giving you good advise in regards to rim brakes and rim wear. Keep in mind that your new disc pads will squeal for the first few dozen miles. Mine also squeal whenever it's wet (but so did my old v-brakes), and whenever it's cold (below freezing, on account of the rotor being unable to warm up). They modulate braking power better than v-brakes, although honestly both brakes will stop you when you want to stop. The mechanical discs on my bike are very simple (Hayes MX-2), and adjusting them is certainly no more complex than adjusting v-brakes (although I do have to adjust them sometimes when I re-install the wheel, takes about a minute and an allen key). And while it was uncommon, I did occasionally experience enough icing on my rims (pretty much when riding through heavy, wet snow) to compromise braking power in my old v-brakes. With disc, no worries, as the rotor doesn't accumulate nearly as much snow and ice as the rim does.

ItsJustMe

My brakes don't squeal much since I used up the original Avid brake pads and got cheap $6 Asian replacement pads from eBay. They're also supposedly semi-metallic, not organic, and they last longer than the original Avid pads and work as well, but they only squeal VERY occasionally - once in a while when they're wet, and when I first put them on for a day or so, that's it.