Flashing rear lights ? (IL law?)
11-17-10 | 10:04 AM
#26
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I think the lawyer answer wins the prize, though... In the end, law or the interpretation thereof is only as valid as the winning lawyer's opinion.
11-17-10 | 10:12 AM
#27
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I would be interested to know what these things are? I can think of things where there is some use which is illegal. But what kind of things do they sell for which the intended primary use is illegal?
11-17-10 | 10:26 AM
#28
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One shining example (pun intended) is fireworks. Many which are legal for sale are not legal for use in the jurisdiction where they are sold.
Last edited by n9yty; 11-17-10 at 10:27 AM. Reason: fixed grammar
11-17-10 | 10:27 AM
#29
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From: Far beyond the pale horizon.
How confusing the code is...
(625 ILCS 5/11‑1502) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 11‑1502)
Sec. 11‑1502. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles. Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this Code, except as to special regulations in this Article XV and except as to those provisions of this Code which by their nature can have no application.
So, that would tell me that all applicable laws for sec 625 would apply, right?
So, does this apply?
(625 ILCS 5/12‑212) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 12‑212)
Sec. 12‑212. Special restrictions on lamps. (a) No person shall drive or move any vehicle or equipment upon any highway with any lamp or device on the vehicle or equipment displaying a red light visible from directly in front of the vehicle or equipment except as otherwise provided in this Act.
(b) Subject to the restrictions of this Act, flashing lights are prohibited on [B]motor[/B] vehicles except as a means for indicating a right or left turn as provided in Section 12‑208 or the presence of a vehicular traffic hazard requiring unusual care as expressly provided in Sections 11‑804 or 12‑215.
(c) Unless otherwise expressly authorized by this Code, all other lighting or combination of lighting on any vehicle shall be prohibited.
(Source: P.A. 86‑664.)
A bicycle is not a "motor vehicle", but I just wondered if it was subject to the whole of section 625. Like many things, I guess you don't find out for sure until someone arrests you or sues you.
Since 625 ILCS 5/11 does spell out lighting specifically for bicycles, I suppose this is the full scope of the law for bicycles and overrides 625 ILCS5/12.
(625 ILCS 5/11‑1502) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 11‑1502)
Sec. 11‑1502. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles. Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this Code, except as to special regulations in this Article XV and except as to those provisions of this Code which by their nature can have no application.
So, that would tell me that all applicable laws for sec 625 would apply, right?
So, does this apply?
(625 ILCS 5/12‑212) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 12‑212)
Sec. 12‑212. Special restrictions on lamps. (a) No person shall drive or move any vehicle or equipment upon any highway with any lamp or device on the vehicle or equipment displaying a red light visible from directly in front of the vehicle or equipment except as otherwise provided in this Act.
(b) Subject to the restrictions of this Act, flashing lights are prohibited on [B]motor[/B] vehicles except as a means for indicating a right or left turn as provided in Section 12‑208 or the presence of a vehicular traffic hazard requiring unusual care as expressly provided in Sections 11‑804 or 12‑215.
(c) Unless otherwise expressly authorized by this Code, all other lighting or combination of lighting on any vehicle shall be prohibited.
(Source: P.A. 86‑664.)
A bicycle is not a "motor vehicle", but I just wondered if it was subject to the whole of section 625. Like many things, I guess you don't find out for sure until someone arrests you or sues you.
Since 625 ILCS 5/11 does spell out lighting specifically for bicycles, I suppose this is the full scope of the law for bicycles and overrides 625 ILCS5/12.
Here's how to interpret the laws.
** Laws mentioning "motor vehicles" do not apply to bicycles or bicyclists (this is true for every state).
** Laws indicating requirements for a particular class of vehicles (eg, bicycles) supersedes the laws discussing general requirements.
** The flashing light prohibition above does not apply to bicycles (since it says "motor vehicles").
** The first law above (Sec. 11‑1502) says that the general traffic laws apply to bicyclists outside of any laws that pertain specifically to bicyclists or specifically do not pertain to bicyclists (eg, laws mentioning "motor vehicles").
11-1507 Lamps and other equipment on bicycles - Permalink
(a) Every bicycle when in use at nighttime shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front and with a red reflector on the rear of a type approved by the Department which shall be visible from all distances from 100 feet to 600 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle. A lamp emitting a red light visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear may be used in addition to the red reflector.
(a) Every bicycle when in use at nighttime shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front and with a red reflector on the rear of a type approved by the Department which shall be visible from all distances from 100 feet to 600 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle. A lamp emitting a red light visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear may be used in addition to the red reflector.
================
Flashing compensates for a lower-power light. A small solid light is more likely to be lost in the noise. (Emergency vehicles use flashing lights because they are more noticeable.)
Last edited by njkayaker; 11-17-10 at 10:42 AM.
11-17-10 | 10:46 AM
#30
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From: Far beyond the pale horizon.
One thing to keep in mind about the law. It is not just a question of whether or not the police will enforce the law but also a question of your liability if you are in an accident. If you get hit by a car while you are using a flashing light on your bicycle and that is illegal in your jurisdiction you run the risk that some lawyer will use this as an excuse to find you are at fault. The lawyer will claim his client was confused by the bicycle who was riding with illegal equipment. This is why I got the law changed here in Hawaii to permit (but not require) bicycles to ride on the shoulder. No policeman ever ticketed a bicyclist for doing so but it could have been used against the cyclist if there was an accident. Same is true of a lot of laws. If you signal a right turn with your right arm instead of you raised left arm and get hit what will the lawyers say - you were improperly signaling your turn ... an so forth. You may say, well safety first, I'm going to use my strobe blinkie no matter what the law says because it makes me more visible. Well, hope you don't get hit, but if you will notice the number of threads where the moving Christmas trees got hit anyway it should be obvious the strategy doesn't always work. This is why it is a good idea to get the law changed even if the police are not ticketing for it.
You may say, well safety first, I'm going to use my strobe blinkie no matter what the law says because it makes me more visible. Well, hope you don't get hit, but if you will notice the number of threads where the moving Christmas trees got hit anyway it should be obvious the strategy doesn't always work. This is why it is a good idea to get the law changed even if the police are not ticketing for it.
Last edited by njkayaker; 11-17-10 at 10:50 AM.
11-17-10 | 10:56 AM
#31
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From: Far beyond the pale horizon.
That would be nice and convenient, but unfortunately not the truth. There are a lot of things in the USA that you can readily buy that are not legal to use. Go figure.
I think the lawyer answer wins the prize, though... In the end, law or the interpretation thereof is only as valid as the winning lawyer's opinion.
I think the lawyer answer wins the prize, though... In the end, law or the interpretation thereof is only as valid as the winning lawyer's opinion.
I suspect that flashing lights are typically explicitly prohibited for motor vehicles, which means the law is aware of flashing red lights.
I have never heard of anybody in the US getting a ticket for using a flashing red rear light.
Given that there is no prohibition against them, your first responsibility is avoiding getting hit rather than worrying about highly-speculative weirdness about being "at risk" legally subsequent to being hit.
That is, pick the one (flashing or solid) that you think will better make you noticeable. (I'd say that flashing will be better at doing that).
11-17-10 | 10:58 AM
#32
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11-17-10 | 07:44 PM
#33
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11-17-10 | 08:19 PM
#34
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11-17-10 | 09:41 PM
#35
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Ok, but that must be even more rare. Things you can't legally buy, but are sold by legitimate businesses? I would figure if you bought such products you would know they are illegal and not have to ask on a forum...
I mean it's not like you're buying blinking red lights in a dark alley somewhere. They're distributed by the major bike accessory manufacturers to all bike shops in the country...
I mean it's not like you're buying blinking red lights in a dark alley somewhere. They're distributed by the major bike accessory manufacturers to all bike shops in the country...
11-17-10 | 10:32 PM
#36
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Ken
11-18-10 | 08:27 AM
#37
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The main reason for my objection was that I felt there aren't lots of things for which this is true (at least I think this sort of thing is a narrow class of exception). And my original statement was that the lights being available at stores probably meant it wasn't illegal to use them.
11-18-10 | 09:11 AM
#38
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You seem to miss the point. I was agreeing that nothing "always works" and that whether something is legal or not doesn't affect whether it is effective. The point I was making was that if you are going to use flashing lights it is worth your while to make sure they are legal, whether or not the police will ticket you for using them, because if you get hit, and anyone can get hit, you have a better chance of being awarded damages if you weren't doing anything illegal at the time you were hit.
11-18-10 | 09:12 AM
#39
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11-18-10 | 09:14 AM
#40
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Okay, Is there a way to request the thread be locked? I don't think it's useful if it degenerating into such nuanced bickering now. And, once you ride on a sidewalk do you not technically leave the vehicle code and move into the pedestrian legalities? So flashing lights are fine if you ride on sidewalks at night, so there is reason for stores to sell them even if you could not ride with them on the road.
Based on the best reasoned input that referenced the actual Illinois code in this thread, I'm comfortable that the code restrictions on flashing lights applies to "motor vehicles" of which a bicycle is not, and that the requirement for a rear reflector is all that is codified. So it would seem that supplementing as you see fit to be visible is up to you.
Now, all the hearsay evidence and opinions have value, because as has been shown many times if an officer does stop you, the actual code is not nearly as important at that moment in time as his opinion of it, which you can not know of in advance anyway. But I think that practice has shown they have not targeted this.
Thanks to all for your input, it has helped me a lot and been thought provoking, but I think it is moving outside the scope of the initial inquiry.
And, once you ride on a sidewalk do you not technically leave the vehicle code and move into the pedestrian legalities? So flashing lights are fine if you ride on sidewalks at night, so there is reason for stores to sell them even if you could not ride with them on the road. Based on the best reasoned input that referenced the actual Illinois code in this thread, I'm comfortable that the code restrictions on flashing lights applies to "motor vehicles" of which a bicycle is not, and that the requirement for a rear reflector is all that is codified. So it would seem that supplementing as you see fit to be visible is up to you.
Now, all the hearsay evidence and opinions have value, because as has been shown many times if an officer does stop you, the actual code is not nearly as important at that moment in time as his opinion of it, which you can not know of in advance anyway.
But I think that practice has shown they have not targeted this.Thanks to all for your input, it has helped me a lot and been thought provoking, but I think it is moving outside the scope of the initial inquiry.
11-18-10 | 09:21 AM
#41
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Ok, two arguments have come up in this thread that are wrong. The first is that because you can buy lights in bicycle shops with a flashing mode it must be legal to ride with them in flashing mode. Cars come with flashing lights. It is legal to use them in an emergency when you are pulled over and not moving but that doesn't make it legal to use them when you are cruising down the highway at the speed limit. The fact that the cars come with flashing lights doesn't mean it is legal to use them in all circumstances.
Second, is that because you have never heard of anyone being ticketed for using flashing lights on a bicycle means they must be legal. But Judge, I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for it so it must be legal ... obviously that is not going to win.
Second, is that because you have never heard of anyone being ticketed for using flashing lights on a bicycle means they must be legal. But Judge, I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for it so it must be legal ... obviously that is not going to win.
11-18-10 | 09:44 AM
#42
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Thanks! I had seen that elsewhere, but I find it vague with regard to flashing or solid. I suppose one would have to look into the regular motor vehicle code to see if there is a problem here or not. I also had read the Illinois bike "rules of the road" and found nothing specifically about it.
And, outside of "legalities", the question as to which is safer for the cyclist is always important. I guess one of each is best.
And, outside of "legalities", the question as to which is safer for the cyclist is always important.
I guess one of each is best.Everything I've read tells me that over the last few years Chicago has become very bicycle friendly because of the mayor. Let's hope it continues under the new administration. Looking forward to visiting in the near future for the purpose of re-locating.
11-18-10 | 09:51 AM
#43
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It's not that confusing.
Here's how to interpret the laws.
** Laws mentioning "motor vehicles" do not apply to bicycles or bicyclists (this is true for every state).
** Laws indicating requirements for a particular class of vehicles (eg, bicycles) supersedes the laws discussing general requirements.
** The flashing light prohibition above does not apply to bicycles (since it says "motor vehicles").
** The first law above (Sec. 11‑1502) says that the general traffic laws apply to bicyclists outside of any laws that pertain specifically to bicyclists or specifically do not pertain to bicyclists (eg, laws mentioning "motor vehicles").
This indicates that a red reflector is required and that a red light is allowed but optional. Since it does not prohibit a flashing light (which are explicitly prohibited for motor vehicles), the law allows for flashing red lights.
================
Flashing compensates for a lower-power light. A small solid light is more likely to be lost in the noise. (Emergency vehicles use flashing lights because they are more noticeable.)
Here's how to interpret the laws.
** Laws mentioning "motor vehicles" do not apply to bicycles or bicyclists (this is true for every state).
** Laws indicating requirements for a particular class of vehicles (eg, bicycles) supersedes the laws discussing general requirements.
** The flashing light prohibition above does not apply to bicycles (since it says "motor vehicles").
** The first law above (Sec. 11‑1502) says that the general traffic laws apply to bicyclists outside of any laws that pertain specifically to bicyclists or specifically do not pertain to bicyclists (eg, laws mentioning "motor vehicles").
This indicates that a red reflector is required and that a red light is allowed but optional. Since it does not prohibit a flashing light (which are explicitly prohibited for motor vehicles), the law allows for flashing red lights.
================
Flashing compensates for a lower-power light. A small solid light is more likely to be lost in the noise. (Emergency vehicles use flashing lights because they are more noticeable.)
Laws that I have seen say that bicycles have all the rights and responsibilities of motor vehicles. Maybe I am unclear about how this applies to lighting?
11-25-10 | 05:27 PM
#44
The Professor
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The responsibilities apply to behavior on the road, it does not apply to equipment which is vehicle specific for obvious reason.
11-25-10 | 05:34 PM
#45
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One thing to keep in mind about the law. It is not just a question of whether or not the police will enforce the law but also a question of your liability if you are in an accident. If you get hit by a car while you are using a flashing light on your bicycle and that is illegal in your jurisdiction you run the risk that some lawyer will use this as an excuse to find you are at fault. The lawyer will claim his client was confused by the bicycle who was riding with illegal equipment. This is why I got the law changed here in Hawaii to permit (but not require) bicycles to ride on the shoulder. No policeman ever ticketed a bicyclist for doing so but it could have been used against the cyclist if there was an accident. Same is true of a lot of laws. If you signal a right turn with your right arm instead of you raised left arm and get hit what will the lawyers say - you were improperly signaling your turn ... an so forth. You may say, well safety first, I'm going to use my strobe blinkie no matter what the law says because it makes me more visible. Well, hope you don't get hit, but if you will notice the number of threads where the moving Christmas trees got hit anyway it should be obvious the strategy doesn't always work. This is why it is a good idea to get the law changed even if the police are not ticketing for it.
(1) Every bicycle when in use during the hours of darkness as defined in RCW 46.37.020 shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least five hundred feet to the front and with a red reflector on the rear of a type approved by the state patrol which shall be visible from all distances up to six hundred feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of head lamps on a motor vehicle. A lamp emitting a red light visible from a distance of five hundred feet to the rear may be used in addition to the red reflector. A light-emitting diode flashing taillight visible from a distance of five hundred feet to the rear may also be used in addition to the red reflector.
Personally, I always use flashing, and I don't agree with the common hypothesis that it's harder to determine the range of a flashing light. What's fairly certain is that (1) the flashing mode is more distinctive and noticeable, particularly in an ocean of steady red lights in traffic; and (2) it's associated with bicyclists and pedestrians, giving the right cue to the motorist.
If you do want to give range cues, then divergence is a good way to have your cake and eat it too. Bar-tip taillights, and/or a bike taillight plus a helmet taillight, have physical separation so the viewer can triangulate. As they get closer, the lights diverge.
Last edited by mechBgon; 11-25-10 at 05:51 PM.
11-26-10 | 06:04 PM
#46
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Thankfully, there is no ambiguity in my state:
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.780
Personally, I always use flashing, and I don't agree with the common hypothesis that it's harder to determine the range of a flashing light. What's fairly certain is that (1) the flashing mode is more distinctive and noticeable, particularly in an ocean of steady red lights in traffic; and (2) it's associated with bicyclists and pedestrians, giving the right cue to the motorist.
If you do want to give range cues, then divergence is a good way to have your cake and eat it too. Bar-tip taillights, and/or a bike taillight plus a helmet taillight, have physical separation so the viewer can triangulate. As they get closer, the lights diverge.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.780
Personally, I always use flashing, and I don't agree with the common hypothesis that it's harder to determine the range of a flashing light. What's fairly certain is that (1) the flashing mode is more distinctive and noticeable, particularly in an ocean of steady red lights in traffic; and (2) it's associated with bicyclists and pedestrians, giving the right cue to the motorist.
If you do want to give range cues, then divergence is a good way to have your cake and eat it too. Bar-tip taillights, and/or a bike taillight plus a helmet taillight, have physical separation so the viewer can triangulate. As they get closer, the lights diverge.
11-26-10 | 06:08 PM
#47
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In every state I'm familiar with, there's also a separate set of vehicle lighting rules for bicycles, which supersedes any rules applicable to vehicles in general.
11-27-10 | 10:28 AM
#48
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I prefer to ride with a solid red tail light (3). I also have a lighted reflective vest, I have that on flashing mode. I figure that way I have the best of each.
11-27-10 | 01:03 PM
#49
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I use my rear and front light in flashing mode always. I haven't gotten in trouble with the cops yet. Heck, in my part of town, I see cyclist at night with no lights at all. And cops are all over the place. I never seen anyone of them got pulled over.
But then I live in the northern ghetto of Chicago.
But then I live in the northern ghetto of Chicago.
