This is what I have the most trouble with. Why on Earth would anybody care what kind of pedals you use? It's because they were told clipless is the only thing worth riding, and all "serious" cyclists use them... and they believed it. There is so much ignorance and misinformation being passed around as fact.

Ugh! Just this morning, saw people posting in the Road Bike forum about how clipless will "make you faster and is more efficient." Groan.

Well I have to say when I started this thread I wasnt expecting it to cause so much controversy! glad I gave everyone somthing to talk about!!

oh and i'm liking the PEDALS and shoes so far but cant say i've noticed a massive change in performance...although I did manage to reach my goal of averaging 18mph over my 14 mile route yesterday...

I went to several bike shops the other day and one of them I overheard on a conversation of a salesman explaining the benefits of clipless pedals and shoes to a customer buying a road bike. I cringed because I wondered if the person was a new rider. If so buying clipless pedals makes no sense to me. Just get out and ride for a while and come back to get your free adjustments and decide on pedals and shoes if you want to go that route. Of course he could have been saying all the right things for the situation since I didn't hear the whole conversation. He did mention the whole being able to pull up with the pedals etc...

I am glad the OP is enjoying the new pedals and shoes. I am glad other people enjoy them because that made it easy to sell all the ones I had laying around. =)

If you couldn't care less and you think it's a personal choice...as you first posted...then why are you getting your knickers in a such a knot about whether or not people use clipless?

Clipless pedals do offer advantages over toe clips just as toe clips offer advantages over nonclipped (would that make them clipless clipless pedals:rolleyes:) platform pedals. Toe clips and clipless offer a better connection to the bike over platform pedals. That means less possibility of slipping off the pedal in all kinds of situations where you don't want to slip off the pedals. They offer more efficiency while pedaling because even though the anti-clipless crowd says that you don't pull up on the pedals, you really do, especially when sprinting up to speed and it situations that call for more power like hill climbing and pedaling out of the saddle.

Clipless pedals, especially double sided mountain bike pedals, offer the advantage over toe clips of not having to flip the pedals and/or tightening the straps to secure the pedal/foot connection. If you don't want to clip into the clipless pedals, you can just misalign your foot a little and pedal. If you don't want to get into clipped pedals you have to deal with scraping the toeclip on the ground.

Then there is the comfort issue. Clipless pedals are more comfortable then clipped pedals. If, in an attempt to gain some efficiency and security, you tightened your straps with clipped pedals, the strap creates a pressure point across the top of the foot...I rode for 15+ years in toe clips so I know a little about them:rolleyes: Clipless pedals have some other hot spot issues but at least the shoes fit across the top of your foot more comfortably.

Liability? Someone one on one of their tours probably crashed when their foot slipped off a platform and crashed. Or they may have had someone crash into a vehicle or object while trying to flip up a toe clip.

Or maybe the company wants to ensure that the riders on their ride are at a certain skill level. While saying that everyone on the ride has to use clipless may seem silly, it's the touring company's choice. If you don't want to abide by their conditions, you don't have to pay money to use their services.

I also noticed that you ride clipped pedals on your chopper bike on your signature line. You don't seem to use them normally, so why do it or a 115 mile ride? Efficiency? Comfort? Choice? Advantages?

I'll stick with 72% and not fall over at the light, thanks. (I use toe clips without straps.)

did you get the answers you were seeking?

A small addition is something tjspiel touched on, shoe stiffness. Most clipless shoes have a stiffer soul then regular shoes. This adds to the efficiency of the system, but is also a draw back if you want to walk anywhere.

Half of my bikes have clipless, half are platforms, each serves it purpose.
Learn to track stand and you will have to un-clip half as much. ;) I can usually track stand even the cargo bike for 10 seconds or so (platform pedals). Fixed, which is SPD clipless with no brakes, can have me at a 10 minute light and I'll still be standing on the pedals like a goof. :)

Because people are passing off opinions as fact. I have issues with that. Personal preferences I have no problem with.

I understand they secure your foot to the pedal (sometimes too well), but you cannot physically sprint downward with one leg and pull upward with any significant force on the other, especially when you are standing. It "feels" like you are, but according to science, you're not. Even if you could, toe clips can do the exact same thing. If you have contrary facts to back it up, I will gladly recind my reprimand.

This is extremely convenient. I agree.

Comfort is opinion. I've been riding toe clips for 15 years as well, and I have no such comfort or hotspot issues. It's personal preference.

That's fine, except that it's quickly becoming common practice for companies to do this. What happens when they all require it? Why do clipless pedals have to be an indicator of cycling proficiency? I'm thinking any kind of foot retention would work.

I normally use toe clips, and have since the early 90's. I actually wished I hadn't used them on that bike, as the toe clips were hard to use with such a laid-back seating position. This year, I will be using pinned platforms on it, which will allow me to climb much more comfortably and still allow for some spin. I'm planning on doing the full 150 miles with it this year.

The study often quoted that demonstrates that people "unweight" more than "pull up" is somewhat suspect and runs counter to what people feel they experience in the real world. There have been endless debates over that study in this forum and others. I will suggest though that people may be pulling back more than up. When you think about the mechanics of running, it's the pulling back that moves you forward, not the pushing down. To me that says our legs were designed (or have evolved) to generate significant force with that motion and clipless takes advantage of that more than toe clips alone do.

Personally I feel I get the most benefit from clipless while standing. Whether it's because I'm pulling up or back I can't say for sure. I do know that when I rode home once without socks and my shoe kind of loose I did nearly pull my foot right out of the shoe.

Either way it's more efficient than without retention. You can certainly get some of the same benefit with pins on BMX style pedals and that may be enough for most people.

FWIW, in normal conditions I've never fallen over with any pedal type, platform, toe clips or SPD. The only time a pedal has caused me to fall was when I was riding on a very crowned road surface with about 4 inches of wet snow on it. When I hit the pedals the rear tire would tend to side-slip, and I had to put a foot on the ground INSTANTLY - a half second delay meant eating snow. I rode in that with toe clips for about the first 200 feet up a hill then flipped it over and rode on the platform side, and put the platform pedals on when I got home that evening (with the toe clips flipped over, they dragged in the snow every rotation).

If you don't like them, don't use them. I have 3 sets of clipless pedals that sit in a closet - I formerly used them, but don't at present.

If you were seeking confirmation that you can ride on regular flat pedals -- you have it.

If you were seeking confirmation that clipless pedals are a complete waste of money -- you don't have it, because people ride bikes for different reasons, which completely blurs the idea of what is a waste or not.

It's opinion.

Clipless pedals follow the ski binding evolution. Most serious cyclists use them nowadays for a reason . . . they offer significant advantages over the alternatives.

+10

:lol:

I'd think that riding a 'bent would be more difficult with platforms... :innocent:

The only thing I don't like about that requirement is that there are many clipless systems and they're incompatible with each other. I'm trying to think of a good reason to require clipless on an organized tour, and the best I can think of would be to change bikes or pedals in the even of a breakdown. Changing bikes wouldn't be a problem, though, because pedals can be swapped; repairing or replacing pedals, however, would require several backups of varying brands unless the organizers chose a single system.

At any rate, instead of griping about it anonymously, I'd suggest to ask them why.

BTW, I still think toeclips aren't very good for retention unless the straps are tightened down to hold the feet in place. The problem is, if they're tight enough to be useful, they're hard to get out of quickly.

You averaged 18 mph over A 14 mile route? That's extremely impressive. But that's your moving average, yes? Not including time spent stopped at controlled intersections? Do you think your better speed is due to the new pedals or because of increased fitness?

I respect your choice to use use clipless pedals, and I agree that they're a lot better than toe clips. Clipless pedals offer all the advantages of clipless, with fewer of their disadvantages.

However, even for mountain biking, clipless pedals are not necessarily the best choice for everyone. Regardless of what you say, no one actually pulls up on pedals, even while riding up steep single track; it's a purely subjective experience. There seems to be a lot of quantitative bio-mechanical research to back this up. And the performance of these pedals is vastly overrated. My own experience tells me that clipless pedals don't make much difference on flat ground at steady speeds. Their primary advantage is on hills or during sprints, and even then, the advantage is small, maybe 5%. Obviously, if you're racing, a 5% advantage is huge, but if you're just commuting or touring, it's much more a matter of personal preference.

Don't get me wrong: I have absolutely no problem with clipless pedals. If they work for you, that's wonderful. However, I don't agree with the assumption that an unwillingness to use clipless pedals equals a lack of riding skill. I'm perfectly competent with clipless pedals; I just prefer not to use them, and I feel that my own preference, which is at least as safe, should be equally respected. If I can't be treated like an adult when making travel plans, you won't get my money; it's that simple.

I will continiue to use my toe clips and straps, because they work very well for me. I am amazed how many people are complaining about the old fashioned toe clips and straps and how much of a pita they are. No they are not a pita if you know how to use them. In wintertime I use flat bmx pedals with pins, I don't like the idea of being glued to my bike when riding on snow and ice. People who complain about their feet slipping off of the pedals ?, you must be doing something wrong.

I tried clipless, but they weren't for me. I'm pretty sure I had them adjusted right, but I also royally screwed up one of my knees. A cousin had the same experience even after being fitted and refitted by a professional. He had to switch back to platforms just to save his knees. I like being able to move my foot on the pedal and use different muscles to pedal. I also like the versatility of platforms for doing a variety of things on a bike, like commuting, running to the grocery store, or just down the street, or riding through traffic. They work for some, but mileage varies. I bought some cheap online and they didn't work so I sold them on Craigslist.

I'm always interested in the debate between how much they affect performance. Replies on this post vary between almost none to monumentally. My understanding of physics however makes me side with the almost none argument. I think Commodus in post #11 said it best. If you find value in having a pedal that makes slipping almost impossible, it might work for you. If that's not a concern, or you're not into racing, you can probably live without.

Please link to some of that bio-mechanical research to back up the idea that "no one actually pulls up on pedals" [emphasis added]. So far, I haven't been able to find anyone who has stated what you just did. I have found people who state that pulling up on the pedals is important when sprinting or racing up hills.

Pedal one legged and you'll find that you have to pull up on the pedal if for no other reason than you have to get the pedal back to the top of the stroke. I can feel the tension in my lower leg as I pull upward on the pedal to return it to the top of the stroke. Follow someone as they pedal and watch their legs. I happen to be able to watch someone yesterday on the way home. The muscles of the trailing leg...the one on that is being pulled...were under tension and hardened as you'd expect under load. On the front leg...the one pushing down on the pedals...the muscles are much more flaccid. The guy was obviously 'pulling' with his rear leg and with no small amount of force.

We have independent legs that can do more than move one leg at one time. Just in walking, our legs are moving independently and doing very opposite actions at the same time. One leg is being pushed down and one is being pulled up while pushing off of the ground all at the same time. The motion on a bicycle isn't all that different to what you do when you climb stairs. Both legs do an almost equal share of propelling the body up the incline. All a bicycle does is translate that motion into a circular motion.

As for assuming that clipless equals a lack of riding skill, go back and see what I wrote about the touring company. I did not say that you have to use clipless to be proficient at bicycling. I said "maybe the company wants to ensure that the riders on their ride are at a certain skill level" presuming that the company equates clipless with a certain skill level. People who ride platforms may be skilled or they may be totally unskilled. An unskilled rider on a long tour riding platforms could require much more attention and help then the touring company wants to deal with. I've lead rides with riders who are way over their heads in terms of skill and they can make the entire ride difficult for everyone. On one of the worst incidents of this I've experienced, a 4 hour ride turned into a 12 hour ordeal.

Of course toe clips are a PITA. That's why clipless were invented. They are an improvement over the old system. In road riding, perhaps not so much but in off-road, a 2-sided pedal is vastly superior to a toe clip pedal. On steep hills, you can just mash your foot down on the pedal and be engaged without all the hassle of flipping the pedal while losing momentum or catching a dragging clip on some trail object...which doesn't do your momentum any good.

And, the people who seem to feel that we can only work one leg at a time notwithstanding, once in the pedal you can apply power all the way around the pedal stroke which helps you power up the hill.

Lance Armstrong doesn't. They spared no expense finding his optimal pedaling efficiency, and even they said point blank, you do not actually "pull" upwards, just unweight the non-pushing foot.
http://www.trainright.com/articles.asp?uid=4613&p=4366

Read this article, a few paragraphs down, where they say:

Someone is pulling up, or people wouldn't talk about coming unclipped in a sprint or climb. It may be bad form, but it happens.

They also say

Pull back, or pulling at the bottom of the stroke, is what most people are doing when they 'pull up' on their non-drive foot.

Additionally, how do you think 'unweighting' is accomplished? You could just pull your foot off the pedal and catch the pedal at the top of the stroke. That would reduce any downward force on the pedals to zero. But I doubt that you are going to see that from any rider. You could accomplish this with platforms very easily and yet I don't recall ever seeing an elite cyclist using platform pedals in an event.

And as pallen has mentioned above, people pull out of the pedals all the time when sprinting and climbing. They don't pull out of the forward, or drive, pedal but out of the rear pedal.

Further, did the measurements done include sprinting and hill climbing resistance? The pedaling dynamics are different there.

Climbing stairs? Pfft... Everyone knows that skilled stair-climbers never lift their feet.

:p :lol:

I just think it's pretty stupid to say that "nobody pulls up on the pedals" when I can feel the soles of my shoes -- especially the cheaper, more flexible, casual-style shoes I've had -- pulling away from the bottoms of my feet on the upstroke.

In all seriousness, the study I cited was for a professional racer, and was designed to increase his efficiency at 90+ RPM cadences. So, taking that into account, you don't really have time to pull or lift a foot when spinning that fast or faster. This whole thing is about efficiency, not foot retention. I would imagine most people would see just as much gains in efficiency with toe clips if they learned proper technique. Nobody is going to argue clipless pedals retain your feet better than anything else, but saying they make you more efficient is marketing hype. Better technique makes you more efficient.

I could go on and on about it. No matter what I say, demonstrate, or try to prove, there will be people who still insist they make you more efficient because you can pull up, which is pure speculation. I will continue to insist under normal pedaling conditions (not including bunny hops, etc.), you can't pull up with enough force to make a difference, and therefore they are no better (efficiency-wise) than toe clips. I will concede they are more convenient while riding (as well as impractical when not) and better at general foot retention, but I never disputed that to begin with.

That's just the way it is. We can agree to disagree. Can't we all just get along? This isn't the 41. :)

Haha I thought the point of the internet was so we could all sit around and anonymously gripe all day! :lol: