The thing I have found about clipless and the "pulling up" is that it allows you to quickly rotate through muscle groups. When you need to make time the easiest way to increase your speed is to plant your rear in the saddle and focus your efforts on cadence. When you are out of the saddle it is significantly harder to pull up, your body is in a position to put pressure downward. But when you are saddled you can just focus on a smooth pedal action and it really shows.

Unless I'm in a hard sprint, it's extremely rare for me to ever come out of my saddle.

In all seriousness, that study was the first that Lance did, and the first time that anyone measured forces in multiple directions on pedals, and found that he could improve his power output in such a way that required solid foot retention*.

Besides, the quote you cherry-picked said, "In other words, the best you can do with the upstroke leg is to get it out of the way so it doesn’t subtract from the force being exerted by the leg on the downstroke." No doubt that so-called "merely unweighting the upstroke" eliminates the inefficiency created by the back foot essentially pressing against the front foot.

Plus, it was eighteen years ago. Some BF members weren't even born yet.

*"Solid foot retention" meaning either clips & straps with shoes that have cleats to lock them into the pedals... or clipless pedals.

Been riding a lot for the last 20 years (more on the bike than the car). 19 of them in clipless - original Look - spd and similar. This year I put some old clipless on my main comute bike (2O year old Pug 14 speed). I find I am no slower - traffic lights are a tiny bit more difficult - BUT - because I can move my feet a marginal amount on the pedals - knees are feeling the best they have in 5 years.

All in all clipless are great - but toe straps do serve a purpose.

+1 And the ironic thing is that this is precisely what being stuck to the pedal prevents you from doing.

On the flip side, the problem with being unretained is you can't pedal like a mad man when you start losing motor coordination from bonking and you can't pedal as fast. Toe clips are probably the best compromise between efficiency and control (with clipless giving less efficiency and more control), but since clipless is a goldmine for the manufacturers that's what they convince people to use.

Studies- "Nobody pulls up, not even the pros."
Commuter- "I know for a fact I'm pulling."

Obviously the logical conclusion is that you're pulling in a direction other than "up". You might be working the crank arms, but you're not adding force to the drivetrain. So you might as well tie your ding dong to the saddle and pull on that too (I guarantee you will feel the difference). :p

Um....I'm confused. Haven't you been saying that clipless pedals don't increase efficiency?

Yes, it's about efficiency. Efficiency that cyclists gain with clipless pedals over other pedal types, especially platform pedals. If they didn't gain efficiency, elite...and not so elite...cyclists wouldn't use clipless. They still be using toe clips or platforms because those systems are lighter then just about any clipless system.

The problem is that you haven't demonstrated nor proved much. You've cited one study...and you've not even cited the original study but only a single journalistic article about a study. The study was done under laboratory conditions of which there is little detail. Questions to ask about that study are: Was it done under steady state conditions? What were the resistance levels? What was the effect of sprinting on the pedal forces? What were the effects of climbing a grade? Etc.

tjspiel makes many valid points in this post about the studies.

Whether the action is pulling 'up' or 'back', the effect is the same...more efficiency in some situations.

Even the Petersen article you linked to says this about when you need to have your feet securely attached to the pedals:

Finally, I never said that pedals increase efficiency in a stead state situation. While they might, the magnitude of the increase is probably too small to make a difference. I said that they were useful in sprints and hard effort situations...situations that bicycle commuters encounter all the time.

90RPM is not fast. Maybe for comfort bike riders on the MUP, but not for anyone who refers to themselves as a cyclist.

Bollocks. If you really believe that then your technique isn't as good as you think it is. Whether you call it "lifting up" or "unweighting" makes no difference. You absolutely can reduce downward pressure on the upstroke at high cadences.


Thread title: How much difference do clipless pedals make?

It's about both. They're related.

Without foot retention, you're using muscle groups just to keep your foot on the pedal. I don't care if the pedal has gigantic metal spikes in it to keep your foot from slipping, you're still exerting energy to keep your feet down on the pedals.

With foot retention, those muscles can be focused on propelling the pedals.

Switching from platforms to clipless you notice immediately that if you push too hard some of your muscles get sore, because you're using muscle groups that weren't active before in the pedal stroke. How does that not equate to a noticeable improvement in efficiency? It's not going to make you 10mph faster on average, but to claim that clipless pedals aren't more efficient is bogus.

Yes, better technique does make you more efficient, but better foot retention allows you to better use the muscle groups responsible for a smooth pedal stroke.

I think perspective is important. Considering many of us are chubby freds riding to work and back with full fenders and panniers, we can't exactly pretend that clipless make a big difference in the scheme of things. It definitely locks your foot in and smooths out your strokes, and it might make you slightly faster, but it certainly isn't a major factor in whether you'll make it to work or not.

i ride both clipless (speedplay x2s) and use traditional mks platforms with clips and straps. i like both and each has their specific benenfits. the problem i personally have with clipless as a commuting platform is that commuting isnt just going to work and back. its going to the grocery store, running errands, stopping off to other life stuff. bike shoes with a cumbersome cleat or stiff shoe seem awkward if you are also on your feet alot. i like clipless however when im only riding for riding's sake. no stop and go, just me, my bike and what ever terrain im riding that day.

Sure. But, the more out of shape I am, the more help I need. :D

this +1

You can argue semantics about whether or not pulling up on the back part of the stroke makes a difference and all that, but to me it mostly comes down to the above. If you have no retention, you are almost guaranteed to be putting some back pressure on the pedals just to keep your feet on them. With retention it's a non-issue. To me the gains in performance are mental, because I can just focus on going. The other gains are mental. I like not worrying about positioning my feet. The cleats are set where I'm comfortable on my bike. I clip in and go. Straps vs. clipless is mostly dependent on how well each is set-up and individual preference, but both are useful, and there's a reason why people use each, otherwise there wouldn't be a huge market for them.

[QUOTE=shouldberiding;12287641

With foot retention, those muscles can be focused on propelling the pedals.


Yes, better technique does make you more efficient, but better foot retention allows you to better use the muscle groups responsible for a smooth pedal stroke.[/QUOTE]

I agree... but clipless pedals are not neccssity for that... my toe clips and straps accomplish this very well, and I have many choices as to what shoes I want to wear. I have a very smooth pedal stroke no matter what pedals I use, but that's because I ride fixed a lot and not because of what pedals I use.

I totally agree with you. Clipless pedals are vastly superior to toe clips in every respect. My only gripe with clipless is the sometimes totalitarian attitude of some clipless users. The assumption that you're not a serious/competent rider if you don't use clipless kind of offends me.

Or, conversely, that your pedaling technique sucks if you use clipless...

Really, the only time I feel comfortable tightening toeclip straps is on spin bikes at the gym -- but then my gym shoes are pretty flexible and not so great for pedaling. I certainly don't want to scuff up my nicer shoes with toeclips while riding to work, either (the leather-covered half-clips I have now scuff them up, too). It would come back to wearing certain shoes, preferably beater shoes with a stiffer sole, for riding with toeclips... and that's not very different from using cycling shoes with cleats and clipless pedals.

As a bike commuter I feel safer with my feet clicked in. Because my mountain bike, road bike and commuter all have clipless pedals I go from bike to bike without having to rethink how my feet feel on the pedals. Works for me these past 7,500+ miles since I bought my commuter.

I would only suggest using the sort of pedal that makes you feel safest and in tune with your bike.
(BTW, I keep a pair of regular shoes at my office)

I didn't read anyones responses, so someone may have said this but...

I went clipless & have never looked back. Faster. More power. More fun. I even got the pedals that have one clipless side & one flat side, for regular shoes, just for convenience. Since I got the pedals/shoes, I haven't biked with anything else. If you're worried about falling, it's not that hard. Soon enough it's second nature. Have fun!

I don't find a meaningful difference between them. For any non-race application, I think clipless pedals are part of the kit that makes someone feel like they are a cyclist. If you commute in heavy traffic, I think it is safer not to be clipped in. Just my opinion.

I've commuted in heavy traffic with toe clips, power grips and now (for about 15 years) clipless. I don't see any safety disadvantage to clipless - or toe clips or power grips.
I do feel sorta like a cyclist when I use clipless.