I'd think that riding a 'bent would be more difficult with platforms... :innocent:

The only thing I don't like about that requirement is that there are many clipless systems and they're incompatible with each other. I'm trying to think of a good reason to require clipless on an organized tour, and the best I can think of would be to change bikes or pedals in the even of a breakdown. Changing bikes wouldn't be a problem, though, because pedals can be swapped; repairing or replacing pedals, however, would require several backups of varying brands unless the organizers chose a single system.

At any rate, instead of griping about it anonymously, I'd suggest to ask them why.

BTW, I still think toeclips aren't very good for retention unless the straps are tightened down to hold the feet in place. The problem is, if they're tight enough to be useful, they're hard to get out of quickly.

You averaged 18 mph over A 14 mile route? That's extremely impressive. But that's your moving average, yes? Not including time spent stopped at controlled intersections? Do you think your better speed is due to the new pedals or because of increased fitness?

I respect your choice to use use clipless pedals, and I agree that they're a lot better than toe clips. Clipless pedals offer all the advantages of clipless, with fewer of their disadvantages.

However, even for mountain biking, clipless pedals are not necessarily the best choice for everyone. Regardless of what you say, no one actually pulls up on pedals, even while riding up steep single track; it's a purely subjective experience. There seems to be a lot of quantitative bio-mechanical research to back this up. And the performance of these pedals is vastly overrated. My own experience tells me that clipless pedals don't make much difference on flat ground at steady speeds. Their primary advantage is on hills or during sprints, and even then, the advantage is small, maybe 5%. Obviously, if you're racing, a 5% advantage is huge, but if you're just commuting or touring, it's much more a matter of personal preference.

Don't get me wrong: I have absolutely no problem with clipless pedals. If they work for you, that's wonderful. However, I don't agree with the assumption that an unwillingness to use clipless pedals equals a lack of riding skill. I'm perfectly competent with clipless pedals; I just prefer not to use them, and I feel that my own preference, which is at least as safe, should be equally respected. If I can't be treated like an adult when making travel plans, you won't get my money; it's that simple.

I will continiue to use my toe clips and straps, because they work very well for me. I am amazed how many people are complaining about the old fashioned toe clips and straps and how much of a pita they are. No they are not a pita if you know how to use them. In wintertime I use flat bmx pedals with pins, I don't like the idea of being glued to my bike when riding on snow and ice. People who complain about their feet slipping off of the pedals ?, you must be doing something wrong.

I tried clipless, but they weren't for me. I'm pretty sure I had them adjusted right, but I also royally screwed up one of my knees. A cousin had the same experience even after being fitted and refitted by a professional. He had to switch back to platforms just to save his knees. I like being able to move my foot on the pedal and use different muscles to pedal. I also like the versatility of platforms for doing a variety of things on a bike, like commuting, running to the grocery store, or just down the street, or riding through traffic. They work for some, but mileage varies. I bought some cheap online and they didn't work so I sold them on Craigslist.

I'm always interested in the debate between how much they affect performance. Replies on this post vary between almost none to monumentally. My understanding of physics however makes me side with the almost none argument. I think Commodus in post #11 said it best. If you find value in having a pedal that makes slipping almost impossible, it might work for you. If that's not a concern, or you're not into racing, you can probably live without.

Please link to some of that bio-mechanical research to back up the idea that "no one actually pulls up on pedals" [emphasis added]. So far, I haven't been able to find anyone who has stated what you just did. I have found people who state that pulling up on the pedals is important when sprinting or racing up hills.

Pedal one legged and you'll find that you have to pull up on the pedal if for no other reason than you have to get the pedal back to the top of the stroke. I can feel the tension in my lower leg as I pull upward on the pedal to return it to the top of the stroke. Follow someone as they pedal and watch their legs. I happen to be able to watch someone yesterday on the way home. The muscles of the trailing leg...the one on that is being pulled...were under tension and hardened as you'd expect under load. On the front leg...the one pushing down on the pedals...the muscles are much more flaccid. The guy was obviously 'pulling' with his rear leg and with no small amount of force.

We have independent legs that can do more than move one leg at one time. Just in walking, our legs are moving independently and doing very opposite actions at the same time. One leg is being pushed down and one is being pulled up while pushing off of the ground all at the same time. The motion on a bicycle isn't all that different to what you do when you climb stairs. Both legs do an almost equal share of propelling the body up the incline. All a bicycle does is translate that motion into a circular motion.

As for assuming that clipless equals a lack of riding skill, go back and see what I wrote about the touring company. I did not say that you have to use clipless to be proficient at bicycling. I said "maybe the company wants to ensure that the riders on their ride are at a certain skill level" presuming that the company equates clipless with a certain skill level. People who ride platforms may be skilled or they may be totally unskilled. An unskilled rider on a long tour riding platforms could require much more attention and help then the touring company wants to deal with. I've lead rides with riders who are way over their heads in terms of skill and they can make the entire ride difficult for everyone. On one of the worst incidents of this I've experienced, a 4 hour ride turned into a 12 hour ordeal.

Of course toe clips are a PITA. That's why clipless were invented. They are an improvement over the old system. In road riding, perhaps not so much but in off-road, a 2-sided pedal is vastly superior to a toe clip pedal. On steep hills, you can just mash your foot down on the pedal and be engaged without all the hassle of flipping the pedal while losing momentum or catching a dragging clip on some trail object...which doesn't do your momentum any good.

And, the people who seem to feel that we can only work one leg at a time notwithstanding, once in the pedal you can apply power all the way around the pedal stroke which helps you power up the hill.

Lance Armstrong doesn't. They spared no expense finding his optimal pedaling efficiency, and even they said point blank, you do not actually "pull" upwards, just unweight the non-pushing foot.
http://www.trainright.com/articles.asp?uid=4613&p=4366

Read this article, a few paragraphs down, where they say:

Someone is pulling up, or people wouldn't talk about coming unclipped in a sprint or climb. It may be bad form, but it happens.

They also say

Pull back, or pulling at the bottom of the stroke, is what most people are doing when they 'pull up' on their non-drive foot.

Additionally, how do you think 'unweighting' is accomplished? You could just pull your foot off the pedal and catch the pedal at the top of the stroke. That would reduce any downward force on the pedals to zero. But I doubt that you are going to see that from any rider. You could accomplish this with platforms very easily and yet I don't recall ever seeing an elite cyclist using platform pedals in an event.

And as pallen has mentioned above, people pull out of the pedals all the time when sprinting and climbing. They don't pull out of the forward, or drive, pedal but out of the rear pedal.

Further, did the measurements done include sprinting and hill climbing resistance? The pedaling dynamics are different there.

Climbing stairs? Pfft... Everyone knows that skilled stair-climbers never lift their feet.

:p :lol:

I just think it's pretty stupid to say that "nobody pulls up on the pedals" when I can feel the soles of my shoes -- especially the cheaper, more flexible, casual-style shoes I've had -- pulling away from the bottoms of my feet on the upstroke.

In all seriousness, the study I cited was for a professional racer, and was designed to increase his efficiency at 90+ RPM cadences. So, taking that into account, you don't really have time to pull or lift a foot when spinning that fast or faster. This whole thing is about efficiency, not foot retention. I would imagine most people would see just as much gains in efficiency with toe clips if they learned proper technique. Nobody is going to argue clipless pedals retain your feet better than anything else, but saying they make you more efficient is marketing hype. Better technique makes you more efficient.

I could go on and on about it. No matter what I say, demonstrate, or try to prove, there will be people who still insist they make you more efficient because you can pull up, which is pure speculation. I will continue to insist under normal pedaling conditions (not including bunny hops, etc.), you can't pull up with enough force to make a difference, and therefore they are no better (efficiency-wise) than toe clips. I will concede they are more convenient while riding (as well as impractical when not) and better at general foot retention, but I never disputed that to begin with.

That's just the way it is. We can agree to disagree. Can't we all just get along? This isn't the 41. :)

Haha I thought the point of the internet was so we could all sit around and anonymously gripe all day! :lol:

The thing I have found about clipless and the "pulling up" is that it allows you to quickly rotate through muscle groups. When you need to make time the easiest way to increase your speed is to plant your rear in the saddle and focus your efforts on cadence. When you are out of the saddle it is significantly harder to pull up, your body is in a position to put pressure downward. But when you are saddled you can just focus on a smooth pedal action and it really shows.

Unless I'm in a hard sprint, it's extremely rare for me to ever come out of my saddle.

In all seriousness, that study was the first that Lance did, and the first time that anyone measured forces in multiple directions on pedals, and found that he could improve his power output in such a way that required solid foot retention*.

Besides, the quote you cherry-picked said, "In other words, the best you can do with the upstroke leg is to get it out of the way so it doesn’t subtract from the force being exerted by the leg on the downstroke." No doubt that so-called "merely unweighting the upstroke" eliminates the inefficiency created by the back foot essentially pressing against the front foot.

Plus, it was eighteen years ago. Some BF members weren't even born yet.

*"Solid foot retention" meaning either clips & straps with shoes that have cleats to lock them into the pedals... or clipless pedals.

Been riding a lot for the last 20 years (more on the bike than the car). 19 of them in clipless - original Look - spd and similar. This year I put some old clipless on my main comute bike (2O year old Pug 14 speed). I find I am no slower - traffic lights are a tiny bit more difficult - BUT - because I can move my feet a marginal amount on the pedals - knees are feeling the best they have in 5 years.

All in all clipless are great - but toe straps do serve a purpose.

+1 And the ironic thing is that this is precisely what being stuck to the pedal prevents you from doing.

On the flip side, the problem with being unretained is you can't pedal like a mad man when you start losing motor coordination from bonking and you can't pedal as fast. Toe clips are probably the best compromise between efficiency and control (with clipless giving less efficiency and more control), but since clipless is a goldmine for the manufacturers that's what they convince people to use.

Studies- "Nobody pulls up, not even the pros."
Commuter- "I know for a fact I'm pulling."

Obviously the logical conclusion is that you're pulling in a direction other than "up". You might be working the crank arms, but you're not adding force to the drivetrain. So you might as well tie your ding dong to the saddle and pull on that too (I guarantee you will feel the difference). :p

Um....I'm confused. Haven't you been saying that clipless pedals don't increase efficiency?

Yes, it's about efficiency. Efficiency that cyclists gain with clipless pedals over other pedal types, especially platform pedals. If they didn't gain efficiency, elite...and not so elite...cyclists wouldn't use clipless. They still be using toe clips or platforms because those systems are lighter then just about any clipless system.

The problem is that you haven't demonstrated nor proved much. You've cited one study...and you've not even cited the original study but only a single journalistic article about a study. The study was done under laboratory conditions of which there is little detail. Questions to ask about that study are: Was it done under steady state conditions? What were the resistance levels? What was the effect of sprinting on the pedal forces? What were the effects of climbing a grade? Etc.

tjspiel makes many valid points in this post about the studies.

Whether the action is pulling 'up' or 'back', the effect is the same...more efficiency in some situations.

Even the Petersen article you linked to says this about when you need to have your feet securely attached to the pedals:

Finally, I never said that pedals increase efficiency in a stead state situation. While they might, the magnitude of the increase is probably too small to make a difference. I said that they were useful in sprints and hard effort situations...situations that bicycle commuters encounter all the time.

90RPM is not fast. Maybe for comfort bike riders on the MUP, but not for anyone who refers to themselves as a cyclist.

Bollocks. If you really believe that then your technique isn't as good as you think it is. Whether you call it "lifting up" or "unweighting" makes no difference. You absolutely can reduce downward pressure on the upstroke at high cadences.


Thread title: How much difference do clipless pedals make?

It's about both. They're related.

Without foot retention, you're using muscle groups just to keep your foot on the pedal. I don't care if the pedal has gigantic metal spikes in it to keep your foot from slipping, you're still exerting energy to keep your feet down on the pedals.

With foot retention, those muscles can be focused on propelling the pedals.

Switching from platforms to clipless you notice immediately that if you push too hard some of your muscles get sore, because you're using muscle groups that weren't active before in the pedal stroke. How does that not equate to a noticeable improvement in efficiency? It's not going to make you 10mph faster on average, but to claim that clipless pedals aren't more efficient is bogus.

Yes, better technique does make you more efficient, but better foot retention allows you to better use the muscle groups responsible for a smooth pedal stroke.

I think perspective is important. Considering many of us are chubby freds riding to work and back with full fenders and panniers, we can't exactly pretend that clipless make a big difference in the scheme of things. It definitely locks your foot in and smooths out your strokes, and it might make you slightly faster, but it certainly isn't a major factor in whether you'll make it to work or not.

i ride both clipless (speedplay x2s) and use traditional mks platforms with clips and straps. i like both and each has their specific benenfits. the problem i personally have with clipless as a commuting platform is that commuting isnt just going to work and back. its going to the grocery store, running errands, stopping off to other life stuff. bike shoes with a cumbersome cleat or stiff shoe seem awkward if you are also on your feet alot. i like clipless however when im only riding for riding's sake. no stop and go, just me, my bike and what ever terrain im riding that day.

Sure. But, the more out of shape I am, the more help I need. :D