These bikes made by a company called Linus are the only IGH bikes that have really looked appealing to me. I think the emphasis on practicality/ comfort goes well with the IGH. Or maybe I just like their aesthetics. http://www.linusbike.com/models/

Part of why I picked my bike is so that I don't have to do mechanical screwing around. I need another hobby like I need another hole in my head! There are a bunch of solutions if you're willing to fiddle, but I'm not. The OP said right up front that he's not willing to fiddle either.

(I'm not because I know where that leads... and there's no way my landlady will let me have enough power tools to really be happy.)

Apart from wearing out a rapid-fire shifter with overuse, my Alfine has never required any sort of special care or feeding. Once in a while I squint at the little window on the hub to make sure the marks are lined up, that's it apart from oiling the chain. I've ridden to work at -22 C here in Saskatoon, through drifting snow, and never had a problem. My own tolerance for cold is the only limiting factor.
For a long highway ride I'll use my road bike with derailleur gears. For lugging potatoes home from the farmer's market, the IGH bike is a much easier ride.

- Lots of users hate removing the Alfine/Nexus hub from the frame to do rear wheel maintainance like tire changes and fixing flats.

- When you have your hub serviced (oil dipped) it can be difficult to find an LBS that can do it without making the hub work worse. Adjusting the bearing clearence on an IGH takes some knowledge/skill that seems to be lacking at some LBS based on posts here on this forum.

I didn't say "difficult maintainence", I did say "unique care and feeding". BTW, 15K miles without servicing is a little long.

One man's "mechanical screwing around" is another man's hobby. I agree with your sentiments which is why I've avoiding becoming an IGH prophet to my friends. Lots of people ride derailliuers bikes and don't mind it, LBS service is routine. IGHs are still in the cult mode, moving out slowly.

I guess I've had experience now with 3 systems, SA, Shimano Nexus and now Nuvinci. I like them all for city bikes but prefer derailler systems for any road or touring uses.
The Nuvinci seems to be the best value right now with, at least in practical terms, an unlimited gear selection within it's range and a $300 price tag.The manufacturer claims it is permanently sealed and maintenance free for "the life of the unit." Unfortunately we don't know what that means yet.
The Nexus provides a great range of gears and works smoothly but I have worn worn out a tapfire shifter,a shifter cassette and now the right hand seal has come loose and made it unusable until I can take it apart. All this in less than 4 years.
Sturmey Archer-well they seem to be bulletproof. Tried and true quality,easy,diy maintenance and they never seem to wear out. If I replace the Nexus unit I will use an SA 3 speed.

After the apocalypse there will only be Keith Richards herding cockroaches on an old Raleigh.

Marc

Interesting. I'm getting an IGH for reduced winter time maintenance, but the "hobby" factor makes it more fun for me. My thought is that once it's installed there would be less "mechanical screwing around" than with a derailleur. I suppose it's like an automatic vs. manual in a car. The automatic is way easier to use and the maintenance is pretty low, but when it breaks, - ouch. It's going to cost you.

I think an IGH would be great for my wife. Even though she's ridden with a fair amount of frequency in the past, she really doesn't get how front and rear shifting work together. Just one shifter labeled from 1 to 8 (or whatever) would be much more straight forward.

To the OP. I looked back at your original thread and I suggest another alternative, a trailer. I like this one. It handles well and won't slow you down much on the commute when not loaded but actually handles quite well under load (better than loaded panniers). There should be no problem using it with your current bike.

For my IGH bike I use a Rohloff with dropped bars. I like this mounting solution for the shifter very much but, alas, it will only work with a wishbone stem.

I originally had my shifter mounted on the stem but didn't like it and had it moved it to the bar-end.

http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/46...500x500Q85.jpg

Mittelmeyer, in Germany, makes a drop bar shifter, for Rohloff hubs.
it is bigger so as to slide around the curves
and includes an eccentric like piece to clamp around the bar via setscrews ,
It's ID the OD of a road bar, and leaves a gap to run the brake cable thru .

May be imported from the Manufacturer, direct, see:
http://www.mittelmeyer.de/html/rennlenker.htm

Got one 2nd hand, that's what he did, yet to build it onto a bike..

Just curious about those handlebars. What are they? I'm looking for something I can set up to have flat ramps AND drops with campy shifters. Those look pretty good from the pictures.

FSA K-Force Compact.

I can't imagine (though I'm no expert) using a single speed for a bike that sometimes carries groceries and sometimes does not. The gears you would use with 20 pounds of food on the bike are different than the gears you would use with no food on the bike. And then there's hills, the more weight you have on the bike the more helpful gears are. So I would go with gears, myself.

I own both an IGH bike (a Civia Highland) and several derailler bikes.

My advice to the OP is to stick with a regular derailler bike.

There are disadvantages to an IGH -
1. IGH is more expensive
2. Harder to find a bike with one
3. Harder to find a shop to work on an IGH that has any idea what they're doing
3. Makes the rear hub noticeably heavier.
4. May or may not be less efficient - all I really know is that even with summer tires my IGH bike is slower than my road bike
5. Taking the rear wheel off is more annoying, as people have mentioned. The biggest problem is just that it's different, so you have to learn different steps. Civia has some videos on how to do it -
http://civiacycles.com/resources/tech/
Watch "Alfine Shift Cable Removal", then "Rear Wheel Removal", both are needed. It looks easier in the video than I found it in real life, frankly.
6. Gear range has been fine, but the bigger gaps between each level of gears is annoying.
7. I've found the supposed maintenance benefits when you have an IGH + chain (without a full chaincase, at least) to be very, very overated. The chain is still the source of most of the maintenance, and you're still stuck with it. So in my opinion if I got another IGH bike I'd go with a belt drive...though obviously they're even more expensive.

It's mostly that I find a lack of benefits with an IGH + chain. As I said, I find maintenance stuff highly, highly overated since most of the maintenance is with the chain. Maybe the chain last longer if you put on the right chain - but is it an overall savings? The other stuff seems like a bunch of tradeoffs to me.
- Can shift while stopped, but shifting time is unpredictable when shifting under load. My Alfine will shift under load, but it suddenly takes longer. This is not a problem with my derailler bikes. When you combine a stoplight + igh + hill right after the light, it can be pretty annoying.
- Both systems need adjustments in the first 100-200 miles because the cables stretch. In my experience with decent components (Shimano Sora and Tiagra), neither develops any serious shifting issues after that.

I don't know - for Minnesota winter riding, if you got a belt drive, I think it would probably be worth it. But for San Diego I don't think, in my opinion, that it's worth the extra hassle and cost.

P.S. Adjusting the derailler in the back is a matter of turning a little knob on the back of the derailler to increase or decrease tension. Doesn't require special tools or anything.

Great. After I'm halfway through my IGH conversion purchases you go and post this. ;)

My derailleurs don't come through the winter very well and always require a really thorough cleaning in the spring. I also have periodic shifting problems that I know is partly due to cable freezing. I suppose an IGH doesn't necessarily cure that but I'm really hoping for fewer shifting issues and less cleaning with the IGH next winter.

A belt drive would be awesome. Maybe someday, but for now I am looking forward to being able to use my cache of KMC "Rust Buster" chains again. You can't get them for 8 speed or higher, - at least not in the U.S. as far as I can tell, but they do stay cleaner looking. They don't necessarily last any longer.

I have very limited experience with modern IGHes. The 3 speed Nexus Hubs on the local bike-share bikes definitely don't shift on a dime. I'm hoping for better with the Red Band.

As far as the OP goes I agree with you. If this was San Diego I wouldn't even be considering an IGH. I took my road bike out for the first time since mid November (it's been a loooooong winter). The shifting was great. No adjustment required after months of riding followed by several months of just sitting. It's not like I baby that bike.

IGHes do have a loyal following though and part of the reason I'm getting one is curiosity. I'm going to weigh the bike before and after to figure out how much of a penalty there is after you get rid of the derailleurs and extra chainrings. I'm also going to do some tests with the computer and HRM to see if there's any real speed difference. It's not the bike I take when I want to go fast anyway, but like I said, I'm curious.

haha, well my main point was that since OP *isn't* biking through a Minnesota winter an IGH wasn't worth it. :-)

If the problem is that the bike isn't shifting, then an IGH might help. 'course the reason it might help is because you put some decent shifting cables on the bike - might make a big improvement no matter what you used. :D

If someone asked me if it was worth it to use an IGH + Chain in a Minnesota winter, the answer isn't quite as clear. While I think the maintenance benefits are overblown, and while the time to shift can become unpredictable, it's also true that the bike doesn't "not" shift or anything. It's never stopped shifting no matter how cold it's gotten, it just doesn't shift in a predictable amount of time (let's say it's a random amount of time somewhere between 2 seconds and 6 seconds). And it's never frozen up and refused to shift altogether - something I've heard sometimes happens with derailler's in the winter. And as other people have said, if you want to nudge the bike into shifting sooner you mostly just ease up on your pedalling for a second. And while the majority of the maintenance work seems to be with the chain, it sounds like there's some with the derailler that you might not have to worry about with an IGH. Biking through the salt, sand, and freezing temps really puts the bike through different conditions than biking through above-freezing conditions.

+1 to alot of the recent discussion.
I think a cyclocross bike would be a good sweet spot. Perhaps a trailer for better utility on big errands/grocery runs, leaving you with a bike that has 90% of the speed of a road bike with more comfort and durability (and utility - racks, perhaps fenders).

Bikesdirect ti looks tasty
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/..._pro_ti_xi.htm

The most important difference between IGH and derailleur is the shifting technique...derailleurs don't shift well in traffic (although they fit like a glove for "le tour"). Since I always ride in traffic I would never consider a derailleur, even in San Diego or bone dry Phoenix.

Only the upfront cost is more expensive. In the long run IGHs are way cheaper because they don't wear out like cassettes do (or all the new chains you have to buy to prevent damaging your cassette). Chains and chainrings are also cheaper because you can use whatever is on sale.

Derailleurs are cheap crap which cost you more in the long run like all other cheap crap.

A common misconception is that all chains require the same maintenance. This isn't so. The way a derailleur treats a chain is completely different from the way an IGH treats a chain. With an IGH you can "maintain" your chain just as you would a belt (ie not at all) and it will still be more efficient and longer wearing than a belt.

The only thing overrated about the maintenance advantage of IGHs are that some people don't know how to get out of the derailleur mindset and stop obsessing about maintenance.

Also the same things applies to efficiency. Hub gears are more efficient derailleurs, but since 99% of people don't know how to set them up correctly they lose out on this benefit and are left with the misconception that derailleurs are more efficient.

That's the nice thing about an IGH: I never find myself in too high a gear because I always shift to bottom gear when stopping. So it's not possible for me to "realize I'm in too high a gear until I start moving". Besides, you quickly get used to shifting at the dead spot of your stroke (or when getting out of saddle...which is a very effective technique while accelerating: light turns green, spin through the intersection while watching for red light runners, then upshift while standing up to hammer).

This is typical of derailleur users...they criticize problems that simply don't exist with hub gears. What you think is a problem is only a problem because you have poor derailleur specific riding technique.

You can't?
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_...oducts_id=2444

Once again a false comparison because unless you're using a lower spoke count your IGH wheel will be much stronger than your derailleur wheel. A fair comparison would be to weigh your bike with a 36 spoke derailleur wheel vs a 32 spoke IGH wheel or a 32 spoke derailleur wheel vs a 28 spoke IGH wheel.

Also before you go measuring your heart rate make sure you use the largest rear cog possible for maximum drivetrain efficiency. Most riders don't know about this because it's not possible to fix it with a derailleur, but using a small (vs large) external cog actually causes twice as much friction as the hub internals.

I think you can fix it with a derailer somewhat:

http://www.bikeworldnews.com/wp-cont...Derailleur.jpg

That's just the idler, but the real losses are from the loaded cogs in the cluster which are as small as 11T. The problem is inherently unfixable for a derailleur system because efficiency optimization via cog size conflicts with the very principle of adjusting gear ratio via cog size.

I measure chain wear by counting how many NJS certified parts I've snapped in half beating my chains into submission:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=195613
With this measure my chains last more like 20-30 times that of derailleur equipped bicycles for which chain wear must be measured in mm.

With the way things are going I fear derailleur users will soon give their chains the right to citizenship and I'll be forced to pay my chains minimum wage. :p

...this is pretty silly. Obviously deraillers don't shift differently in traffic as they do in a race.

An IGH with a chain requires replacing the cog on the back just like a derailler requires replacing the rear cassette. Assumably a single cog does cost less than a whole cassette. Though how often is a single cog on sale? I would hardly call it "way cheaper".

I can see where this is going. A lot of lies and hyperbole about the thing you've decided is "below you", deraillers in this case.

The idea that a chain would ever outlast a belt seems pretty ridiculous. Belts last a lot longer than chains, and chains last quite a long time themselves (as long as you aren't riding in a Minnesota winter). To be fair, the belt really should last longer as it certainly costs more.

If you obsess with maintenance you'll need to maintain the chain on a derailler or igh. If you don't obsess with maintenance (and most people do not), you won't.

Now that's just hilarious. They're "more efficient" than deraillers. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. The "I love my IGH" crowd doesn't even usually try to make that claim.

That sounds like a lot of work, a lot more work than with a derailler if you're shifting to your bottom gear when stopping anyways. And I don't have a dead spot in my pedal stroke, not since I saw a bike fitter about my pedalling technique.

However, since I'm not on an agenda to bash one over the other, I will say that if you end up to high of a gear at a light I don't find that any better or worse on either my IGH bike or my derailler bike. It's also a pain to get out of it with a derailler as you need to keep enough momentum up to keep the bike upright, while you're trying to keep your head up to look around the intersection, which is tough if the gearing is way to high. If anything an IGH might be easier because you need to keep pedalling to shift, whereas on an IGH you can let up for half a second to shift.

(rolls eyes)

lol - what? Now adding an IGH hub to a wheel with the same spoke count magically makes the wheel stronger?

Except so far much more civilized.

All those smug IGH fanbois are being helpful. And so are the elitist derailer gear-heads.

:innocent:

(edit: oops. chucky spoiled the party...)

+1 My next bike will have a Rohloff at any cost.
+1 The 11T cog is a boat anchor.
+1 The chainline for going 16 to 22 MPH is always crosseyed. In/out or out/in combos, take your poor pick.
+1 Single steel cogs and chains last forever. See pic of mine and dads 1938? Rudge. Used every summer since 1968. Chain not even clean, lubed with plain oil. Before that it commuted to work for 10+ years.
At least 28,000 miles I figure.

What do you mean by "don't shift well in traffic" ? Just curious.

So far I've only replaced one cassette because I wore it out. I've replaced others because I've wanted a different range, or closer spacing.

Why can't you buy on sale? 7-9 speed cassettes aren't all that expensive unless you want Dura-Ace or Campy.


Everything I've heard says just the opposite. Well maintained derailleur systems are more efficient than IGHes.

Shifting while pedaling is not "poor technique", it just doesn't work well with IGHs.

Not sure why your trying to argue this point since it's an advantage I see for IGHes and single speeds, - inexpensive rust resistant chains are readily available. But, since you brought it up, the product you linked to is what I have. You'll see the Z51 listed as 6,7, and 8 speed some places and other places only 7. The reason is that it's very marginal for 8 speed, - a tad too wide. It didn't work very well at all on my bike and I eventually switched to an SRAM chain.

The wheel I'm replacing with an IGH wheel has 36 spokes, and a slightly wider/heavier rim. It's a MTB wheel and plenty strong enough. I got a good price on the 36 hole Nexus which is why I chose that over the 32. The weight of 4 spokes and nipples isn't going to be much anyway.

I'll use whatever combination of chain ring and rear sprocket makes the most sense for the conditions I need to ride under and my budget. Besides, I wouldn't be comparing it to the most efficient derailleur setup possible, I'll be comparing it to what's on the bike now, which is a fairly gunky derailleur and a chain that's near the end of its life. In other words, a real world test that if anything unfairly disadvantages the derailleur system.

For all the reasons above, I prefer IHG. Right now my commuter is an old Trek I modified by adding fenders, racks, a chainguard, swept-back handlebars, and a NuVinci CVT. When I need to replace it I'm planning to get either a Worksman Classic Cruiser (http://www.worksmancycle.com/) and have my LBS add a Schlumpf or go to Morgan Imports and get one of their Flying Pidgeons and have my LBS install an IHG and a Schlumpf.

Exactly. Derailleur shifting is optimized for races which don't have stopping vs traffic which involves a ton of stopping and accelerating from said stops (perfect for the shifting method employed by hub gears).

Since you can't shift while stopped with a derailleur, you have to shift while accelerating or decelerating. That means you're in the wrong gear when you're accelerating and decelerating....which is a large percentage of the ride in traffic.

A single cog costs less than $3-$4, is made of steel, and lasts 10x longer than a cassette due to the difference in chain operation between IGH/derailleur. A cassette costs $30+ and requires a new $10-$20+ chain every couple thousand miles. In the long run, IGH is wayyyyy cheaper.

I was talking about the other parts, chain, chainrings, etc. If the ones on sale aren't the correct width, don't have the proper ramps/pins, etc then you can't get them, but with an IGH they're all compatible so you can buy whichever one is on sale.

Fools and their money...

...at which point the derailleur chain will wear out rather quickly and the IGH chain will keep working flawlessly and efficiently for tens of thousands of miles.

I guess the "I love my IGH" crowd isn't too smart then. The measurements speak for themselves: Larger cogs are way more efficient and hub gears enable you to use them in ways you can't with derailleurs.

What it sounds like is "whoosh" while I leave you behind at the traffic lights.

Even Lance has a dead spot. If you don't then maybe you should take your derailleur and join the Tour.

If you build it right it does (and always has), but maybe the "I love my IGH" crowd couldn't figure out that one either?

chucky - I really want some of those special lube free frictionless chains that last for tens of thousands of miles that you use.

All my bikes have a place and purpose and as my IGH bikes are all three speeds they are primarily urban , recreational, and foul weather machines and if I am going to mountain biking, racing, or touring the derailleur is my preferred weapon of choice and my primary summer commuter is also derailleur equipped.

I have ridden a number of my IGH bikes 100 miles and have also ridden these distances on my fixed gear bikes and of course, on the derailleur equipped bikes... the derailleur equipped bikes do long distances better as the road isn't flat and the wind is always blowing here so being able to find the optimal gear for the conditions is more efficient.

A number of people use IGH equipped bikes for touring and the Rohloff offers the best range while the Nuvinci has constantly variable gearing so eliminates the broader jumps you get with most IGH systems.

The IGH is also favoured among those who ride smaller wheels as the reduction gearing can greatly expand their gearing range.

A clean and properly serviced derailleur system is more efficient than an IGH but only marginally so and the IGH does not suffer the same efficiency losses that happen to derailleur equipped bikes when they get dirty as you can lose as much as 10% if you are running with a filthy exposed drive train.

Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages and just because you can't deal with a derailleur equipped bike in traffic does not mean that other people can't, and most do pretty well.

An 8 speed internal hub offers pretty much everything the average user desires... a nice gear range, low upkeep, long service life, and that ability to shift when stopped which really benefits those who do not practice their shifting technique.

But so very few of us are actually average and all have our own special needs.

That whoosh you hear might be someone on a derailleur equipped bike who knows how to shift and while you are dealing with a larger jump in gears and spinning back up the person on the derailleur equipped bike will pull away as they smoothly transition from one gear to the next in efficient little steps.

In most cases, the derailleur equipped bike offers advantages in that it has a wider gear range and closer steps than most internal hubs (there is usually a trade off between low and high) with less weight so if the road gets steep or if you'd like to go really fast this is the way to go.

This thread is deteriorating pretty fast, but as someone who rides both modern and vintage derailleurs and IGH, maybe I can help clarify some of these points.

Like a single-speed or an old long-chainstay 5-speed derailleur setup, the chainline of an IGH allows using a chain with full bushings, the same sort of chains used industrially for far longer lives than any bike chain. A full bushing has many times the bearing surface of a derailleur chain, and in better full-bushing chains, the bushing is an alloy chosen for lubricity and wear resistance without needing the tensile strength of the side plates. Finally, the full bushing holds lubrication better against wash-out. So, while they don't last forever, and do have friction, it's not unusual for a full-bushing chain with a chainguard to last tens of thousands of miles.

The wear issues of smaller cogs are more complex, but have to do with the greater angle of articulation of each chain joint as the chain moves around the cog, as well as the greater load per joint on smaller cogs. Similarly, the angled chain lines of modern derailleur systems stress the chain joints while they're articulating, creating greater friction and wear than the same chain on a straight chainline.

If you're really interested, your local library may have a copy of Mechanics of the Roller Chain Drive for the math behind the greater friction and wear of small cogs and angled chainlines.

Roller brake Nexus is a mess. Drum brake Sturmey, not so bad. Single indicator Sturmey, like butter.

Unfortunately the difference is probably more due to user error than any particular chain. If I had to guess I'd say:
1. The lubrication you're so fond of is behaving as more of a dirt magnet than a lubricant, thus shortening your chain life.
2. You're replacing your chains before their useful life has been spent. When the chain becomes so worn that it starts to skip teeth there's no need to replace it (though somehow I doubt you even let it go that far). Simply install a good chain tug and it will wear itself back into correct engagement.

Hope that helps and please accept my apologies if your experience excepts you from learning better ways of doing things.

Not according to scientific inquiry.

Surely, but just because it's possible to get by with an inferior system it doesn't mean that system is equivalent to superior alternatives.

Or maybe by that point I'll be standing on the pedals (already instantaneously shifted into the correct high gear) and half way to the next stop. Smoothly transitioning between little steps may be an advantage on the open road, but in traffic it's far more important to be able to quickly transition directly between highest and lowest gears (often in the midst of unforeseen stops which cannot be anticipated).

This might be beneficial to people who ride bikes with single drives to extend chain life... might explain why some very old igh bikes run out as long as they do.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html