IGH vs. Derailer
 

As a sort of follow-up to my previous commuting thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-would-you-do/) I've decided that I do want a separate bike for commuting. As I mentioned there, the commute is ~8.3 miles, slightly hilly. I must be able to carry groceries (sometimes a lot) on the ride home. If I can't carry groceries by bike, I can't commute by bike regularly - simple as that.

At first I thought about touring rig (like a Surly LHT) since that can easily accommodate a rack and panniers and remain stable under a load. Then some of the new IGH and belt drive systems caught my attention. I've read about all the pros and cons of these systems but what seems great is the low maintenance and resilience to adverse weather. I've never really liked derailers much either, probably since I don't really know how to adjust them well, though I may learn.

So, two questions:

1. Are derailers and an exposed chain really THAT bad in the rain? Bad enough to get a potentially less suitable or more expensive bike just for that reason? Is it just a matter of applying a little bit of lube or is it like some people say - the whole system will rust out in a matter of hours. In San Diego we don't get that much rain compared to other places, no snow and the roads are never covered with salt or anything like that. But it does rain sometimes and I would commute then as well.

2. Can someone make any suggestions on a good long distance commuter with IGH and/or belt drive (no SS/fixed)? It seems like you can find this mainly on more "urban" bikes not really meant for longer commutes. The Civia Bryant seems good but it's a tad out of my price range.

1. No. I'm putting an IGH on one of my bikes due to the effects of winter riding (snow, sand, salt, slush, thaw and freeze) on the derailleur drive train. The rest of the year I ride in the rain all the time with my derailleur equipped road bike and it hasn't lead to any shifting problems.

2. I was going to suggest the Bryant but I don't think the Trek SOHO would be too bad for your distance.

Right, I saw the Trek SOHO. Three things though. First, I'd really prefer a steel frame - I just want to own one. Second, I'd really prefer drop bars albeit more upright ones than on my race bike. Third, the SOHO looks really boring. I know that's a stupid one but I can't really bring myself to like it at any angle. I'll still consider it though.

Thanks for the reply.

They're not bad. On actual rain days, there's no noticeable effect - the water seems to provide some lubrication value. After it stops raining, dry chain can be noticeable - depends how much rain - but a 30 second reapplication of lube and quick wipe is enough to counteract this. Cleaning the chain is useful, but not necessary...you certainly don't need to do it every time it rains. The system keeps working regardless...it's very robust. Dry chains are just noisy and noticeably more effort to ride.

Chain bites are a bigger problem than maintenance issues. A belt drive or chain-guard will keep your pants clean, but can't work with derailleurs.

The IGH/Belt feature might be nice, but it would be relatively low on the list of priorities in an ideal bike. I wouldn't sacrifice your desired geometry for it. But it might be worth hunting for a bike that gives you both.

IGH's, at least the modern ones with more than 3 speeds, are an expensive piece of equipment. My understanding is that the belt drive is also patented, so Gates gets monopoly pricing power on it, plus the split frame means you can't just take a standard mass-produced frame and stick a belt drive on it...specialty frame again ups the price. The result is that bikes sporting these features are going to be high end in whatever category they belong to. A high end city bike is still fairly affordable, this isn't true of some other types of bike.

This stuff is still emerging technology. If IGH + belt drive gets popular the way disk brakes got popular, cheaper models will pop up and eventually you'll be able to get them on $200 Walmart specials. But that's still a long way off. For now, you've got to deal with premium pricing. I doubt you'll do much better than the Civia without more tradeoffs on other design features.

I've been riding my road bike all winter in a six-months-long down pour. After 2,300 miles, I wore out a (10-speed) chain, but the derailleurs are fine. Actually, they're great.

No, no, no. There's enough to tell you shouldn't get it.

Rain will not hurt a derailleur, as SeattleForest points out. Keep it reasonably clean. And I think if you keep your chain clean and lubed, especially somewhere like San Diego, you shouldn't have trouble for many, many miles.

So, no I wouldn't get a more expensive, less suitable bike just to avoid the derailleur/chain. Look at it this way, would there be so dang many of them around if they weren't practical?

For your needs, either a derailleur or IGH-equipped bike will work just fine. Rust will not be an issue on any quality bicycle if you take care of it (you'd need to leave in the elements for quite a while before rust would really become an issue - the salty air does help rust thrive, but it still takes time).

Derailleurs
The derailleur-equipped bike will give you a wider gear range and perhaps a little bit closer gearing (closer "steps" between gears) than an IGH. Once set up and adjusted properly, you should not have to worry about your derailleurs, except for a one-time quarter (or half, or whatever) turn of the adjustment barrels as the cables stretch during break-in.
However, derailluer-equipped bikes have some drawbacks when compared to an IGH. First of all, a 27-speed bike with 3 chainrings up front and 9 speeds out back will probably only have 13-14 useful gears (not duplicates with other combinations or "cross-chained" combinations), so he comparison with an 8,9 or 11 speed IGH becomes a bit easier. The Harris Cylery (Sheldon Brown) gear calulator can really help you determine what works for you.

IGH
IGH's offer a simple, clean, low maintenance, easy to use system that can accommodate reasonably hilly terrain with loads. Gear selection is really a no fuss process, and you can change gears when stopped. You don't have to worry about your chainline (cross-chaining) or optimal front/rear combinations, and the system is much easier to keep clean. (simple wipe/lube of the chain and you are good to go. No pulleys, pivots, multiple cogs/chainrings to fuss with). Maintenance intervals on the IGH system make them virtually maintenance free. A new oil/fluid bath every 5-10k miles should keep you in business for years. The straight chain line and steel rear cog tends to result in much longer lifespan for the chain and cog and cheaper replacement cost when the time comes to do the maintenance.
The downsides to IGH systems lie primarily with the "steps" or gaps between gears and the overall gear range. The Shimano 8 speed system, for example, offers a pretty wide gear range, with larger steps between the gears than you'd find on a comparable road/hybrid derailleur system. This difference is less noticeable on wide-gear range derailleured bikes such as mountain and touring bikes with larger range in the rear cogs.

Belt Drive
I'd still qualify this drive system as being in its early stages of existence - experimental.
I've put about 2,000 miles on my belt-driven (IGH equipped) bike, including some aggressive single track riding in "cyclocross" mode, and so far, so good. The system has some real potential, IMO. It is MUCH cleaner than a chain system, requiring almost no upkeep, and it works quite well from what I've seen. It is sensitive to rear wheel alignment, but if everything is squared up it works beautifully.


The wrap up
Personally, I like IGH's for just about every type of biking except racing. I've ridden most types of bikes, raced, commuted, on road, off road, you name it since the late 70's. I'm at home on bicycles. I love IGH's and see no need to use a derailleur system for my needs (commuting, errands, general fitness, fun).

The Bryant is a very nice bike, but 8sp Alfine bikes (and some 11sp Alfine bikes) can be found for less.
Alot depends on your preferences. A correct fit is paramount, and it is difficult to assess fit on your own.
Try test riding several different styles of bikes and get some professional (knowledgeable bike shop) advice on fit considerations for your purposes. A racing fit will be different than a touring fit or commuting fit.
Ride drop bar bikes - cyclocross, touring, club racer - flat bar bikes - sport hybrid, townie, etc etc. Get an idea for what works for you.

I'd avoid picking by aesthetics alone - getting a drop bar bike because it looks cool is a bad choice. If it is more comfortable and natural for you, go for it.

Then check out your options.

Brakes - disc, internal or rim are fine. If your weather was consistently wet or icy I'd say disc or internal, but SoCal levels the playing field IMO.

EDIT: noticed the updated posts where OP mentions steel - that post hit while I was composing this, so bear in mind there are some aluminum bikes in the mix below.

For the money, this bike looks like a potential winner in the "sport hybrid" category, with the Shimano Alfine 11 speed system.

More sporty hybrids with 8 and 11 speed IGHs can be found:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...&category=4078
http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/perf.../cadent-i8-11/
http://www.swobo.com/catalog/product...Path=2448_2449
http://www.rei.com/product/809921
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-US/....0/7342/44056/


More casual:
http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/stee...e-roadster-11/
http://www.globebikes.com/us/en/glob...sp?pid=11LIVE3
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes.../soho/sohodlx/
http://www.swobo.com/catalog/product...Path=2448_2569
http://www.rei.com/product/809007

I don't see any major issues with derailers and rain.

IGH are nice and have some advantages, but they tend to cost more money.

If you want gears and hate adjusting derailers you could just go friction instead which would be easy if you end up with a bar end shifter bike.

If I was going to load up a bike with groceries and all that type of thing I think I would go with a geared bike espcially since all you are having to deal with is rain. I doubt you would go wrong with an LHT.

Having said all that IGH bike might be the bike for you. I would test out a few and see what you think. I have a Bianchi with a 3-speed hub that I might be tempted to use it for commuting if it was the next size up, but its too small so its on Craigslist waiting for a new owner.

I commute in north San Diego county on an IGH (chain driven) bike I put together. I used the IGH setup for no other reason than I was intrigued with it and thought the 8 speeds would be perfect for my commute and the surrounding areas.

Both my "road" bike and mountain bike have traditional drive trains and in our area I don't see any disadvantages to riding these as opposed to the internal hub.

It really comes down to what you want to do. From what I have seen the belt drive aspect tends to drive the price up. The Trek Soho looks to be a nice option, though

Yes.
I'd guess by $100 retail compared to a comparable chain-driven bike (both factory-specced). The separate components cost about double the difference if buying them at full retail. Belt $50-65, rear pulley $100-120 Front Pulley $130-200. Compare to $20 for a chain, $15 or less for an IGH cog, and $40-50 for a decent quality chainring.

Any steel frame (with typical seat stay diameter) can be modified to take a belt drive http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/s...onmachineworks + basic brazing and paint touch-up skills = belt ready. Horizontal dropouts or an EBB would be a requirement, as well.
http://images.goemerchant.net/StoreD...0_MS1035_1.JPG

I put an Alfine 8 on my Surly 1X1 for the same reasons. With studded tires, rack and MTX bag it's at 36 pounds. I consider it good winter training.

Gates belt drive parts alone, = several hundred bucks, .
the Hebie chainglider that encloses a regular chain is like 50.

derailleur stuff has external parts to maintain and replace as they wear,
IG hub setups have many fewer.

buying my 2nd Rohloff hub fitted bike , this one a Bike Friday,
406 wheels ..

Smaller folder, a Brompton, has 2 planetary gears now,

1 in hub, 1 in Crankset .. simple durable AW3 can climb mountains now.

I tend to agree with others here that a conventional drivetrain would work just fine for you.

If you were in a snowier climate, I'd advocate the IGH more strongly, but for you it will really boil down to what you prefer.
Test ride some bikes, see what you like.

I realize this is commuting and generally not a factor, but IGHs are pretty heavy as well. If I built a dedicated commuter, I might do it with an IGH and belt drive. No grease would be the main benefit I see. I wouldn't use one for an all-around bike due to weight and gearing limits. Traditional deraileurs really aren't a problem in any weather above freezing. They are dirty though.

I have more or less given up on derailers, chain/cogs maintenance is more hassle than I want to devote to transportation. So I have been SS/FG-ing primarily for a while now and life is much simpler. I am curious about an IGH wheel but not really feeling the need.

Derailleurs work well when properly set up, and almost any setup will give you a good gear range and spacing. However, I prefer an IGH due to the simplicity of operation- there's one shifter, and no hassle about cross-chaining and juggling two shifters. If you want a higher gear, you just shift up. In snow or freezing rain, ice can sometimes build up on the sprockets of a derailleur setup, preventing shifting.
I get around fine on a 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub, which have been around for decades and are virtually bombproof, and only need a drop of oil occasionally.

For a commuting bicycle with derailleurs, you will probably get by quite happily with a 6 or 7-speed rear and a single front chainring. This keeps the simplicity of operation as with an IGH. If you can't get enough range with a single chainring, you could have a 'granny' chainring as well. Most of your riding would be done on the larger chainring, with the 'granny' there for hill climbing in the larger rear sprockets.

A 1x9 or 1x10 derailleur setup is worth looking into. What you'll find, though is you will have difficulty getting the same gear range as an IGH.

Thanks for the replies all, keep 'em coming.

To the pro-IGH people, I know the pros/cons of the IGH. What I'm looking for are bike suggestions. I'm not mechanically knowledgeable enough at this point to do a frame-up build or conversion.

To the FG/SS people, how hilly is your area? Do you also carry a load of groceries at times?

Look towards the bottom of my first post.

IMO derailleurs are not bad at all in the rain. When I have trouble is when they ice up. As far as rust, my problem with that isn't so much the rust as the clay/sand mixture they put down on the gravel roads around here. If I were on pavement all the time, and only riding when it's above freezing, I wouldn't have much use for an IGH. I don't actually have one but I think I'd really like to have one. I would already except for the need for a horizontal dropout or other chain adjusting hardware.

I'd probably give the NuVinci hub a try myself. The newer version seems pretty decent and not horribly heavy.

http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/kilott_wt5.htm
This one looks good, i wish they got more in stock. If you take a 62 bike then they still have some. Otherwise you could go with the 3 speed one they have that uses a fixed igh:http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...kilott_s3x.htm I don't know if that would be enough for the hills you have to deal with but it looks pretty nice and the price is right.

I've seen these and they look like great bikes for the money.
I'd imagine the OP could change out the rear cog for a larger one (or a smaller chainring) if a lower gear is needed for the steeps.

OP - Bikesdirect (BD) is a great resource for well equipped, decent quality bikes for really good prices.
For example, for the price of some of those IGH bikes I linked below, you could have this . It has eyelets for a rack and/or fenders, if desired. Pretty sweet ride for the money, and a well made ti frame, to boot. Just sayin' :D

Other than the Civia Bryant, there are not many drop-bar bikes with IGH's on the market. Just about any flat bar bike can be converted to drop bars (non-hydraulic brakes) pretty readily.

BD has 2 hybrids with IGH if you were interested in that type of bike or wanted more gears or are willing to switch one of these bikes to drop bars. If I was looking at a IGH bike I would be interested in the Motobecane for that price for an 8 speed IGH. That Kilo WT5 looks freaking awesome though. One issue with it for a commuter is it has pretty short chainstays.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...e_express8.htm

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gt/gt_nomad_ltd.htm

It really makes me smile to hear someone in San Diego asking if rain is a good reason to get an IGH. It has rained here 32 of the past 38 days and the 10-day forecast shows at least 9 days of rain coming, and I'm very happy with a derailleur on my bikes.

I used to have a fixed gear bike, until I moved to the top of a 20% grade hill. My commute minus that hill, which is nearly identical to the commute I had when I used the fixie, is flat to rolling hills -- maybe 60 feet variation in any given stretch. When I first started biking, after 20 years as a couch potato, those hills were vicious even with gears. It didn't take long for my legs to adapt though. I generally carry 5-15 pounds of stuff. With the right gearing, a ss/fg bike can be a very good option. It's also a lot of fun. I don't know if I'd want to carry more than a messenger bag full of stuff though.

If I were going to go IGH, I'd probably want something with a belt drive. If you're going to eliminate the derailleur, you may as well get rid of the oil and grime too. That said, I kind of get the impression that the belt drive system still has a few minor kinks to be worked out. I may be misinterpreting the reports. I really like the looks of the Civia Bryant.

I don't think anyone has mentioned my favorite benefit of an IGH: shifting on a dime, even while stopped. In city riding, this is incredibly convenient, since you're frequently hitting stop lights and stop signs.

Isn't shifting while pedaling an issue for some IGHes ? To me that would be even worse. To realize I'd left myself in too high a gear when I stopped and then to have to be gingerly about shifting after I start moving again. Yes I know I can shift while sitting there, but sometimes I don't realize I'm in too high a gear until I start moving.

In my experience (shimano, 8 speed, specifically), yes, but it is not a significant enough difference to sway me away from using the IGH. This is particularly pronounced well below freezing (say around 0-10 degrees F). I keep my pedals spinning, but ease up on the pressure momentarily as I shift. It comes pretty naturally for me, since I learned to shift during the old friction shifting days, and folks were penalized by their bikes for shifting under load.

When the temps are above freezing, I don't really notice it. If I'm really hammering I will notice a very slight delay in the shift, or will ease up slightly to ensure everything meshes up.

All in all, I'd compare the shifting of the IGH to a mid-level short cage derailleur system. It is definitely no match for top end racing setups.

Mine is hilly, but not one big climb. I climb about 400' total over 7 miles each way. I carry 2 25L panniers that can get pretty heavy. For toting kids (trailer, trail-a-bike) I definitely use a geared bike.

Dynamic Synergy?

This is the closest to IGH one can get w/o actually getting one. Would recommend sticking to 1x7 or 8 though. The chains are a little more stout. If one goes w/a 1x set-up make sure there is some sort of retainer above the chainring to hold the chain on the ring. Something like this: http://www.paulcomp.com/chainkeeper.html A cheaper route is to go w/a 'narrowed' front der.

A 1x deraileur system is pretty easy to keep up with in terms of maintenence. I rode w/a 1x7 mtb about 5 years. It was an urban commute, so I had to maintain my ride about once per week. Nothing big...cleaned and lubed the chain and wiped the bike down, etc.