Traffic ticket
07-12-12 | 08:28 PM
#52
Certified Bike Brat
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 6
From: Montreal, Quebec
You are so off track.
First, cops can easily check your identification with just your verbal name and birth date. The in car computer can look it up, including address, arrest and warrants in just a few seconds.
You are only required to carry a drivers license if you are operating a MOTOR vehicle. NO ID card is required for riding a bicycle. Cops cannot legally confiscate your bicycle for not having an ID card on you.
Here is the US Supreme Court - Hiibel case that establishes that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police:
HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA
https://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...&invol=03-5554
Here is the bottom line on cyclist and ID Cards. The Hiibel US Supreme Court case firmly establishes that if a cyclist is stopped by police either for investigation or arrest, all the cyclist must do, is verbally provide their correct name and birth date. No state laws can override this. So no state can legally compel cyclist to carry or present an ID Card to police.
If a cyclist wants to carry an ID Card for emergencies, fine, but cyclist are not required to so. Cyclist can also put an emergency contact number into their cell phone under ICE (standing for In Case of Emergency) which would also allow police or EMTs to quickly contact someone who knows you, and may know any special medical conditions you have.
Now if you are in a state like California, that has a law that a citizen who has committed a traffic infraction and if that citizen is willing to show a valid ID Card and sign a promise to appear, then the police must release the citizen with a citation and cannot take such citizen into custody; then it might be a good idea to carry a valid ID Card with you, IF you plan on breaking traffic laws and you are also going to carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items on you. In such a case, the ID Card might be a get out of jail free card for the illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items. For those of us that do not break the traffic code and do not carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items; NOT carrying the ID Card when cycling has no legal impact.
Choosing to either carry an ID Card or NOT carry an ID Card is YOUR legal choice when cycling.
You cannot be arrested for not carrying and presenting an ID Card to police when cycling.
Folks, if you are truly interested in the ID Card subject and confirming for yourself that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police, please read the Hiibel case. It is long and may be a little hard to follow, but it is worth while to understand your rights.
First, cops can easily check your identification with just your verbal name and birth date. The in car computer can look it up, including address, arrest and warrants in just a few seconds.
You are only required to carry a drivers license if you are operating a MOTOR vehicle. NO ID card is required for riding a bicycle. Cops cannot legally confiscate your bicycle for not having an ID card on you.
Here is the US Supreme Court - Hiibel case that establishes that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police:
HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA
https://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...&invol=03-5554
Here is the bottom line on cyclist and ID Cards. The Hiibel US Supreme Court case firmly establishes that if a cyclist is stopped by police either for investigation or arrest, all the cyclist must do, is verbally provide their correct name and birth date. No state laws can override this. So no state can legally compel cyclist to carry or present an ID Card to police.
If a cyclist wants to carry an ID Card for emergencies, fine, but cyclist are not required to so. Cyclist can also put an emergency contact number into their cell phone under ICE (standing for In Case of Emergency) which would also allow police or EMTs to quickly contact someone who knows you, and may know any special medical conditions you have.
Now if you are in a state like California, that has a law that a citizen who has committed a traffic infraction and if that citizen is willing to show a valid ID Card and sign a promise to appear, then the police must release the citizen with a citation and cannot take such citizen into custody; then it might be a good idea to carry a valid ID Card with you, IF you plan on breaking traffic laws and you are also going to carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items on you. In such a case, the ID Card might be a get out of jail free card for the illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items. For those of us that do not break the traffic code and do not carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items; NOT carrying the ID Card when cycling has no legal impact.
Choosing to either carry an ID Card or NOT carry an ID Card is YOUR legal choice when cycling.
You cannot be arrested for not carrying and presenting an ID Card to police when cycling.
Folks, if you are truly interested in the ID Card subject and confirming for yourself that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police, please read the Hiibel case. It is long and may be a little hard to follow, but it is worth while to understand your rights.
And lets not forget about this part of that case that you linked to:
"Hiibel was tried in the Justice Court of Union Township. The court agreed that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself as required by §171.123 "obstructed and delayed Dove as a public officer in attempting to discharge his duty" in violation of §199.280. App. 5. Hiibel was convicted and fined $250."
Nothing apparently changed that.
07-12-12 | 09:02 PM
#53
Been Around Awhile
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,664
Likes: 1,980
From: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
In Iowa a resident can be issued a state ID or a Driver's License, but not both. Getting one requires turning in the other.
07-12-12 | 11:20 PM
#54
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 587
Likes: 0
"Hiibel was tried in the Justice Court of Union Township. The court agreed that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself as required by §171.123 "obstructed and delayed Dove as a public officer in attempting to discharge his duty" in violation of §199.280. App. 5. Hiibel was convicted and fined $250."
"Yeah, buck if you want to, boy. We've got something for you."
07-13-12 | 07:27 AM
#55
Zip tie Karen
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,005
Likes: 1,546
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
I was stopped this spring for entering an intersection just a split second (literally) before my side received its green light. Motorcycle cop cited me for failure to obey traffic signal. I had no ID on me, but I gave him my correct name and address when asked.
I'm not a saint. I contemplated giving him the name of another person in town...
I'm not a saint. I contemplated giving him the name of another person in town...
07-14-12 | 07:57 AM
#57
SE Wis
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 4,329
From: Milwaukee, WI
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970
As far as I know there is no state in the union that REQUIRES anyone to carry an ID. In most jurisdictions you need to only identify yourself (some not even that). That said, it takes some balls to excersize this right when confronted by a LEO and they typically can take you into custody until your identity is confirmed. You do need to carry a DL when driving.
07-14-12 | 06:15 PM
#58
Certified Bike Brat
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 6
From: Montreal, Quebec
And lets not forget the most obvious one - any cyclist contemplating crossing international borders better have not just any ID on them, but a valid passport - otherwise prepared to be turned away. Of course showing such ID is discretionary but so is your permission to pass. Anyone that actually believes they 'live in a free country' probably hasn't explored many boundaries.
07-14-12 | 06:26 PM
#59
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 800
Likes: 2
From: Overland Park, KS
Bikes: 1999 Giant TCR 2T 2009 Giant Cypress DX 2015 Giant Anyroad 1
As you said:
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"
When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"
When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.
07-14-12 | 06:30 PM
#60
While technically that may be true, being obliged to spend a ridiculous amount of time in court to try to protect those 'rights' seems like a really big waste of time to me. Is it socially unacceptable to co-operate with your local police force? Maybe you'd rather co-operate with your local street gangs - oooooops - they wouldn't be the least concerned about your 'rights'.
And lets not forget about this part of that case that you linked to:
"Hiibel was tried in the Justice Court of Union Township. The court agreed that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself as required by §171.123 "obstructed and delayed Dove as a public officer in attempting to discharge his duty" in violation of §199.280. App. 5. Hiibel was convicted and fined $250."
Nothing apparently changed that.
And lets not forget about this part of that case that you linked to:
"Hiibel was tried in the Justice Court of Union Township. The court agreed that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself as required by §171.123 "obstructed and delayed Dove as a public officer in attempting to discharge his duty" in violation of §199.280. App. 5. Hiibel was convicted and fined $250."
Nothing apparently changed that.
As to your garbage about supporting cops or gangs, when cops fail to follow the law in performing their duties, then they have become the worst kind of gang.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
07-14-12 | 06:48 PM
#61
Certified Bike Brat
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 6
From: Montreal, Quebec
What are you dribbling about? Hiibel refused to even verbally give the police his name or date of birth. That is the only thing the Supreme Court stated he did wrong. The Supreme Court clearly stated that Hiibel was not required to show a picture ID in the case, since he was not driving at the time.
As to your garbage about supporting cops or gangs, when cops fail to follow the law in performing their duties, then they have become the worst kind of gang.
As to your garbage about supporting cops or gangs, when cops fail to follow the law in performing their duties, then they have become the worst kind of gang.
07-15-12 | 03:20 AM
#62
Or is this just an amateur attempt to ignore how wrong your prior post are?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
07-15-12 | 03:56 AM
#63
Certified Bike Brat
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 6
From: Montreal, Quebec
07-16-12 | 02:11 AM
#64
Giftless Amateur
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,319
Likes: 844
From: MD / metro DC
Bikes: Cross-Check/Nexus commuter. Several others for various forms of play.
So let me try to summarize the trends relevant to the OP's question before I throw a wrench in the works.
We have a definition of vehicle and operator which varies by state, which determines whether the state considers an infraction on a bicycle to be part of your overall vehicle or "motor vehicle" driving record.
We have a federal law that indicates you do NOT have to carry or produce ID (as opposed to a motor vehicle operator license when in a car) but do have to identify yourself. But absent some smoke & mirrors identity fraud (not advisable and an offense in itself), since the cops have computers and such, whether or not you present your vehicle license at the scene of the bicycle infraction is somewhat irrelevant. The event is either going to go or not go on your driving record depending on the state's policies if cited. And, of course, the cop's druthers to cite or not which may be influenced by your perceived level of cooperation, which may include the ID thing.
The level of information sharing between the state(s) and your insurance company may vary. There is some hope that they may not find out about a valid ticket, and some concern that they may find out about a bike ticket but incorrectly perceive it as a motor vehicle violation. Though I'm not sure if the latter means the insurance companies are expected to have their own bike-vs.-car policies that may vary from the states', or if that's simply a concern about the states' recordkeeping.
OK, now the trouble making:
I see this thread has rapidly trended to include a strong bill of rights theme about ID. I think there are a lot of problems with a "mandatory ID carry" law, primarily focused around the logistics of carrying while you're, for example, at the beach or out for a run. Ignore that, and just stick to the current requirement to identify yourself to the law enforcement officer in the event of an offense or probable cause.
==> Does anyone really have a problem with that?
Please do not answer based on some slippery slope. i.e. do NOT assume "identify yourself" is abused for fake stops, let's say you or the theoretical "they" really are an offender.
We have a definition of vehicle and operator which varies by state, which determines whether the state considers an infraction on a bicycle to be part of your overall vehicle or "motor vehicle" driving record.
We have a federal law that indicates you do NOT have to carry or produce ID (as opposed to a motor vehicle operator license when in a car) but do have to identify yourself. But absent some smoke & mirrors identity fraud (not advisable and an offense in itself), since the cops have computers and such, whether or not you present your vehicle license at the scene of the bicycle infraction is somewhat irrelevant. The event is either going to go or not go on your driving record depending on the state's policies if cited. And, of course, the cop's druthers to cite or not which may be influenced by your perceived level of cooperation, which may include the ID thing.
The level of information sharing between the state(s) and your insurance company may vary. There is some hope that they may not find out about a valid ticket, and some concern that they may find out about a bike ticket but incorrectly perceive it as a motor vehicle violation. Though I'm not sure if the latter means the insurance companies are expected to have their own bike-vs.-car policies that may vary from the states', or if that's simply a concern about the states' recordkeeping.
OK, now the trouble making:
I see this thread has rapidly trended to include a strong bill of rights theme about ID. I think there are a lot of problems with a "mandatory ID carry" law, primarily focused around the logistics of carrying while you're, for example, at the beach or out for a run. Ignore that, and just stick to the current requirement to identify yourself to the law enforcement officer in the event of an offense or probable cause.
==> Does anyone really have a problem with that?
Please do not answer based on some slippery slope. i.e. do NOT assume "identify yourself" is abused for fake stops, let's say you or the theoretical "they" really are an offender.
07-16-12 | 03:54 AM
#65
Please answer the question.
Details of a Supreme Court ruling are not important to the case - is that what you are really claiming?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
09-04-12 | 10:52 AM
#67
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: W.Massachusetts
Bikes: Raleigh Cadent FT2
In Massachusetts: Required, a verbal identification of your name and current address. Cycling infractions do NOT apply any influence upon your Massachusetts state drivers license.
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