indeed.



i don't believe in religion...... and i certainly don't believe in grant.

I feel the same way about religion as I do about Grant - it works for some people, most of it isn't for me. There are a lot of things in each that are of value and things i don't appreciate. Often both are too judgmental of apostates. I really enjoy looking at their houses of worship...in Grant's case, his beautiful bikes.

I'm glad Grant is happy.......I'm happy for Grant also.......He still charges too much for bikes made in China.....

Yeah, all that stuff. Maybe even more importantly would be to survey potential commuters and people that used to commute but quit. I've heard that there exists a group of people who might commute but don't because they don't want to wear spandex. Somewhere along the line they came to the conclusion that spandex is part of the deal. Personally I suspect that this group is pretty small. Further I believe that if you convinced them that wearing spandex is completely optional, they'd find some other reason for not commuting.

Where I do think Grant and others might have a point is in regards to taking it easy vs. going hard. I think in the U.S. we want to get places as fast as possible. On a bike for a shorter trip there probably isn't that much net difference in time between riding easy and riding hard. So if the temps are cool enough, the terrain flat enough, and you can ride slow enough, changing and a shower may not be necessary at all. For me, riding at some level of intensity is half the point.

It was disgusting enough not having a shower September thru Jan and having to wipe down in the bathrooms. At least I had a change of clothing.

Better would be to advocate for showers at desitinations instead of for stinky cyclists.

I am glad to hear Grant's perspective. Their is always something to learn from such an experienced cyclist. The problem, as I see it, is that Grant is very bitter towards anything associated with "racing." He seems to be almost unable to talk about things based on their merits. Instead if it's associated with racing, it's bad.

Here is my summary of the point he is making in the NPR piece posted by the OP:

You are not a racer. Racers wear lycra. Since you are not a racer, it would be ridiculous to wear lycra.

Am I a racer? No, but I think there certainly are benefits to racing type apparel. Are bibs with a chamois necessary? No. Do they have features that increase my comfort when I ride? Yes, I think so. Same with jerseys. I think jersey's are very practical. I love their wicking ability, the rear pockets, and a full front zip to help regulate temperature. And what about arm warmers? I think they are a brilliant little accessory for cycling.

The point is, if we are trying to educate folks about cycling let's be honest about the pros and cons of the different options out there. Don't just categorically write off anything associated with racing.

I also would have to disagree with the comments quoted above. So, a roadie kit is "unnecessary" but rack and fenders are "necessary." Well, I could flip that around and argue the exact opposite. If I ride to work in dedicated cycling gear then perhaps a rack and fenders are "unnecessary". I don't care about road debris and back sweat as much if I have dedicated cycling clothing. On the other hand, if I bike in my work clothes I am more concerned about keeping them clean and minimizing sweat.

I think SlimRider's comments are a little misleading in terms of educating new commuters. Again, let's be honest here. We're talking about trade-offs, not right/wrong or necessary/unnecessary. While we could come up with a list of bare minimum necessities,I think most of us are interested in making our commute as enjoyable as possible and just having fun riding our bikes.

I'd have to agree about them finding some other reason, from my limited sample. In the offices where I work, out of about 1400 people I am the only bike commuter. In fact I never see another commuter at this end, out of I don't know how many office buildings and other businesses. But there are a lot of cyclists among my co-workers, there is even a cycling club, matching jerseys race bikes, the works. It's not the garb that stops them. Whenever I talk to someone it's usually the traffic, followed by the weather.

Frankly I'd done it both ways. Currently, with an office gym and showers I prefer to hard effort shower and change, which takes just about the same overall time as a slow ride in office clothes.

Well put, mtb123.

I remember that interview because it came on the radio as I was about to step out to the garage to get my race bike, while wearing a jersey and bibs. I had my backpack and would end the ride at work; I was going to take a long detour on the way to work as a tempo ride, which was part of a fairly structured training plan. My reaction was "Hey Grant, some of ARE racers."

I've probably pinned a number on 20 times this season and have a handful of road races left. Then there's cross season in the fall, but that's more for grins. I'm no big shakes, I'm perpetual Cat 3 pack fodder, but I still like to improve my placings, maybe sneak onto a podium or grab a prime here and there. Most of my teammates commute too. For those of us with fulltime jobs and families, there's really no other way to get the saddle time to be competitive.

I'm not anti-Grant Petersen. I'm just anti-dogmatism. I would love to have a handbuilt lugged steel frameset. And I love my wool jerseys. But I also love my Quarq and my carbon tubular race wheels.

Grant is selling an image. Like Steve Jobs (RIP), was the frontman for Apple image (although, Jobs was an actual genius :p). That's it. It's either a style you dig, or it isn't.

He can sell an image without being an elitist and insulting those who don't do it his way as 'American Bike Geeks". We need fewer people trying to divide cyclists.

I've heard Grant Peterson is a fashion genius. Not the same as being an actual genius, but perhaps the next best thing.

10 1/2 miles morning to work, 15 (long way) going home. The last couple months in central IL (and most of the US) have been a scorcher. I ride to train as well, since I do race road races, criteriums, and time trials. My work has a shower & full size lockers.

^^^ I commute in a full kit, with clipless pedals.

If I need to go pick up milk at the grocery store, I just go with whatever I'm wearing. I can ride easy enough to not even break a sweat in 90+ heat, so shorts and a tshirt work fine when I'm tooling down the street to the store. Every ride is different, I use my bike for different reasons, not just to commute and run errands.

I could care less what others wear.

Over/under? 134 posts.

I'll take the over.

I seem to be riding a middle ground in this discussion.

During these summer days (temps. in the high 60's to work, mid 90's riding home) top to bottom: Helmet, skull cap (lycra), T-Shirt (cotton), reflective vest (some non-natural but-not-lycra material) real road cycing shorts next to my skin, floppy mountain bike shorts over the road shorts, cycling socks, 6-6-1 sandals w/SPD cleats.

So, neither Pro-Look nor Grant Approved casual.

Never a cycling jersey. In the winter I'll wear a base layer (wool or poly pro) and BMX shoes instead of sandals, plus jacket, knee or legs warmers as necessary, but otherwise as with my summer clothing noted above.

I have met Grant, and spoken with him at length, but never discussed commuting. Pity that! Next time (if there is one) I'll bring that up in our conversation.

My commute 8 mi. by bike, 11 mi. by Metro Train - each way.

Rick / OCRR

Some of his bikes used to be made in Japan and by Waterford (here in the US, if you are not familiar).
Now they are split between Taiwan and Waterford (I think it's the larger sizes made in the US). A Waterford-made bike is quite nice. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, though, I'm probably not going to get a frame made in Taiwan.

I'm in the middle too...I disagree with some of what GP says, particularly about clipless pedals, clothing, anti-racing stance, CF and pretty much anything critical of other cyclists. I think he tends to exaggerate his presentation and is not the best at diplomacy.

On the other side, I love his bikes, I think often times a steel bike with tire clearance and eyelets for fenders/racks is most practical for many riders, I like his advocacy "just ride" approach, which goes against his own products and I really like his approach to practical weekend touring. Most shops didn't carry Brooks saddles for a 15 year stretch...but GP did. Does GP have a lot to ad to the hobby? Yes...he does. I'm glad he's around. Is he going to influence my decisions on cycling? Not so much.

+1!

There are people in here that don't care what Grant has to say.

You can't begin to imagine how little my company would care about what Grant has to say.

I rarely see other commuters, but when I do I've seen everything from roadies in full kit to invisible riders on BSOs. And yet somehow we all seem to be relatively content with what we're doing, and it looks like we've all figures out what works for us.

At this pace we could hit 150!

Did you ever stop to consider that for those of us who where technical clothing, it is practical? That, perhaps, we have some experience with bicycle commuting and kind of know what works and what doesn't?

As for 'marketing', show me any kind of marketing for bicycle products outside of enthusiast magazines. There is no national mass media advertising for bicycles let alone bicycle clothing. Bicycle clothing, as well as bicycles, are almost entirely word of mouth. Further those of us who do wear technical fabric bicycle specific clothing don't usually do it because of fashion. I don't. Not a whole lot of the population looks all that good in lycra but we wear it for many of the reasons listed in the 4 pages (so far) of posts. We wear it because it does a job that polyester/cotton blends really can't.

As the great Pee Wee Herman said "Everybody's got a big "but", Simone. Let's talk about your big but." Having to wear bicycle clothes, not having a shower, it's hot, it's cold, it's too far, it's too close, it's too dangerous, you can't wear lycra, etc. is all a giant "but" that people use as an excuse. That's all it is too. Grant Petersen...and Slimrider...are just giving people another 'but' so that they don't have to put their butt on a bike.

Cyccommute says:

Yes, I have given it much thought, Cyccommute. I have concluded that most of us who are serious cyclists have already determined for ourselves just what we'd like to wear when we're cycling whatever we're cycling upon. Of course, some of us are very serious cyclists and will always wear lycra and spandex, because it's what we've always worn when cycling on our road bikes, because that's just a part of the road bike culture. Then there are that portion of us who wear lycra and spandex, because we feel as though it suits our attempt at adapting to our immediate environmental conditions, while cycling. Then of course, there are those of us who don't really know the difference between lycra, spandex, and polyester, because they are hopelessly addicted to jeans and cotton.


Have you ever heard of REI, Dick's, or Nashbar.com? You mean to tell me you've never seen them advertise sportswear. As for word of mouth, that's true, as well. However, it's more like a fringe culture of sorts. Like when you join your first road club and begin to socialize with other road cyclists. You get schooled fairly quickly! We all learn to associate things and events with other groups of things and events.

It's sorta like joining the Boy Scouts. There's no TV, Radio, hard copy print, or INTERNET advertising for the Boy Scouts, but it's a part of our culture. Once you're in, you become an integral part of the subculture and you learn all of the fundamental requirements for becoming an official genuine Boy Scout, which includes a uniform, a moto, an oath, a law, and a code. There's no great big advertising campaign exposing our American male children to the Boy Scouts. However, our male children continue to join the Boy Scouts and they wear the uniform and learn the required laws, oath, code, and motto. It's just a part of our culture. It's a subculture, of which I was proud to be a member for a portion of my childhood. No TV, radio, or newspaper announced it. However, the information was there as a part of our culture. With that information came an image of which, I yearned to become a part. The same is true of many roadies and commuters, alike.

Where do you think the term "Fred" came from in the first place? What goes on within our subconscious minds that conjures such an image, as "Fred"?

What is the converse of a "Fred"? ...To make a long story short, you'd better believe that a large portion of the road bike culture includes image. Image means much to many people. It tends to be the banner of our own personal egos. You ought to know all about that, Cyccommute. As I imagine you to have a huge banner waving 24/7, to represent everything Cyccommute....And there's nothing wrong with that!

Those leaders voted most likely to succeed will also most likely, have gigantic egos, as well, in order to confirm those votes!

A pox on all your houses. I'm just going to keep on wearing my deep sea diving suit complete with the brass helmet.

I'm so far ahead of you guys it isn't even funny.

Gotta quote Bugs Bunny: "Whatamaroon!"

My commute is 16.5 miles each direction w/a 500 ft elevation difference. I use a CX bike w/panniers, rack, etc. Yes, one can get a decent commuting bike for 3-400.00USD w/ENTRY LEVEL COMPONENTRY...not that there's anything wrong with that. :rolleyes: Except if one commutes any distance you'll be changing it all out in a year. I have to change clothes completely upon arrival at work. Fortunately, there's a locker room w/a changing area. I'd like to see these guys do my commute in 90-100F/60%+ in their regular clothes, work a full shift then ride BACK w/a 500 ft climb at night...in a suit. I don't think so. My 'commuter rig' is a combination of 3 bikes, 4 helmets, 5 pr fingerless gloves, 6 or 7 jerseys, 6-7 padded shorts, winter gear, rain gear, tools, truing stand and accessories like lights, chargers, etc. Anything and everything to keep my stress to a minimum and my 'road time' to a maximum.

And the guy owns RIVENDELL for Pete's sake. The most self-important, pretentious, retro-grouchy bike makers in the country. He's WEALTHY. Trump as bike maker. And he's going to tell me I'm chasing away potential cycle-commuters because I wear spandex on my commute? Been doing this for 25 years. WAY before it became 'green'. Started in Chicago before there was such a thing as a bike lane. It was an economic necessity for me. The health benefits came secondarily. My clothing is something I arrived at the same as every other part of my commuting rig...because it works! The fact that I wear mtb shorts over the padded shorts is out of respect to my co-workers and nothing more. When I'm on a recreational or group ride it's spandex/lycra all the way.

The guy sounds really patronizing. Walnut Creek? The pretense center of the universe...except maybe Topanga Canyon. But, it was very gracious of Grant to dab his toe in the mess that is we poor unwashed and bless us w/3:34 of his infinate wisdom.