Grant Petersen :fred:+ rivendell:troll:= 5 pages in one day!:popcorn

pretty cool:thumb:

Marc

P.S. I love my Hunqapillar:beer:

I'm beginning to think that SlimRider *is* Grant Petersen.

:commute:

Well..Ha! So much for your keeping a secret! :rolleyes:

I don't understand why people aren't working in spandex. It's like wearing nothing at all!

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=265948

^ stupid sexy Flanders.

I agree, but here we are. :p

I see folks from all the stereotypical cycling cliques, some who dis people in the other cliques out of some weird sense of tribalism, others who are cool with anybody on 2 wheels (sometimes even 1 or 3). GP is just one of the folks in that clique who like to rag on the other cliques. I don't agree with it, but it's hardly an anomaly.

And at the risk of inciting the hatred of Apple fans, I think Jobs was an elitist jerk selling an elitist image as well. Bloody genius, but a jerk nonetheless.

Hello there MTB123,

During the Grant Petersen interview, Grant openly admits that true road racing bicyclists are a fringe group. Throughout the interview, he's constantly making a point about making commute cycling and cycling in general, an easily accessible activity, as opposed to a sport. If a person views cycling as a sport, it can become quite easily interpreted as an extra unnecessary source of monetary expense. In this dwindling economy, that type of interpretation can destroy one's view of cycling and cause a person to exclude the wonderful world of cycling from being one of his life's experiences.

Grant is not saying don't anybody wear bibs, jerseys, spandex or lycra. He's not saying that only racing road bike cyclists have the right or the most fitting reason to wear "bicycle appropriate" clothing. Grant is simply saying, that just because you're either riding a bike to work, or have the desire to ride a bike to work, you don't have to assume that there's an extra added image to pursue along with the bike. He's saying there's no extra added expense that must cost you, just to become a commuter cyclist. You can simply purchase a bike, a few safety essentials, and then just go!

Just because you've purchased a road bike, don't assume that you have to purchase a bunch of other stuff that you think should go with a road bike.

Just because, you've owned a hybrid for several years and have grown accustomed to it, that's no sign that it's time to "progress" to a road bike, like they're bicycles that represent tiers of progression or something.

Let's just keep it simple for the majority of us. Let's truly analyze our actual needs and desires. Let's intelligently determine for ourselves as individuals, just what suits our actual needs and what doesn't.

There's no need to assume extra costs, just to persue a false image or to chase a ghost dream. That's what I think Grant Petersen is saying, and I support his position in doing so.

He's not such a bad guy and he ain't the Boogie Man!

I'm glad he's here to tell us these things. Chewie! Take the Professor in back and plug him into the hyperdrive!

I think Grant's view is a little distorted. Don't most people get their bikes from Walmart, Target, or the like? Clearly they don't feel like they need to spend thousands of dollars and that the cost isn't really turning people away from commuting. In fact commuting surged when gas prices jumped. Folks recognize that it's a way to SAVE money.

A quote from Grant: "Yeah. Well, racing is presented to us as the goal that we should all aspire to, and I totally don't believe that. Racing is fringe. Racing ruins bicycle riding for a lot of people. They think that, well, I've been riding a bike for a few years. It's time for me to get a racing bike, get the clothes, get the click-in shoes and start not having fun on a bike. And it ends up being a big trap. And I was trapped in that for 20, 22 years, probably"

I really don't believe that most people think like this. The vast majority of people I know have a bike tucked into their garage, house, or apartment someplace. Yet few of them have had any inclination to race. I'm not saying that the popularity of cycling as a sport is entirely positive as it relates to commuting but I believe that it mostly is. In this town we simply would not have the cycling infrastructure we do without a lot of hard work from cycling enthusiasts, - many of whom came to cycling because they were attracted to it as a sport.

It was my interest in cycling as a sport that got me to move from a multi-modal commute to riding the entire distance, - all of 6 miles. I was convinced that it would take me a lot longer than it would to drive or take the train all the way in. I was wrong.

And my last point, - the next generation. My son rides his bike to school. It's a little under 3 miles. If I didn't ride to work, he would not have had that example, and we'd be driving him (there's no bus service from where we live). I wear cycling shorts or tights most of the time when I ride to work and we have this running joke. I'll say to him: "You know, I could ride with you to school if you like. I could get you a pair of tights like mine." "NOOOOOOOO! Dad please don't come anywhere near my school with those tights!"

So in spite of the fact that he's an impressionable young man, and that his prime example of a bike commuter is a man in tights, he's managed to come to the conclusion all on his own, that spandex is entirely optional.

So no I don't worry that the fact that I wear spandex is leaving people with the impression that it's a required part of commuting.

There are all kinds of bike commuters out there, just as there are all kinds of motor vehicle commuters. Some like to "race" to work on a road bike or sports car, others are riding an MTB or driving an SUV, and other are riding or driving hybrids. To say one is better than another is offputting. However, what is completely over the top is the fashion advice, which reveals his very limited perspective.

my evolution as a cyclist was that when I got my first capable bike, I would ride it everywhere for fun. Then I did decide that racing would be fun, and did that for a while. But I was still enjoying myself riding places. I really don't know how many people out there actually race without enjoying riding a bike. It's a pretty small number in my experience.

I ride to work in my PJs, no kidding.

I wear an athletic shirt and shorts to bed at night (I normally shower at night). I wake up, roll out of bed and put on my shoes. I get on my bike with my backpack and ride to work. I shower and dress there. I don't ride a road bike, though I might in the future but I can't see myself going full kit except if I get into racing or go on some long rides.

My wife was a college tennis player. She was used to playing at a high level. She continued to play and compete some after college but as she spent less time doing it, her game suffered. It got to the point where playing was a source of frustration and for a long time refused to pick up a racket. It was impossible for her to play "just for fun".

So I can see how might happen and maybe Grant knows some former cyclists that had a similar experience. But it doesn't work like that for most people. I dabbled in competitive tennis and I'm entirely capable of enjoying it as way to kill a few hours even though I'm not at the top of my game and haven't been for a long time. Maybe that's because I was never very good. ;)

And I think he's entirely overlooking how the sport and the athletes can serve as an inspiration. Someone who thinks riding 5 miles to work is too far might re-evaluate when they learn that TDF riders average over 100 miles a day.

That's why I think he's more of an Apple-esque business model rather than being super concerned about Freds. Good merchandise, but you're really paying for the image and aesthetics. The rest is fluff towards that end.

In his defense he says that $300 or $400 is enough to spend on a commuter bike. Clearly for his own bikes he's marketing to a different set of customers.

I have very mixed feelings about him. I like that he's concerned that the workers in his factories get paid a decent wage and while I see some similarities between he and Jobs, in the end they are probably very different people. Jobs was pretty much a self-centered ass. He was a visionary perhaps, successful no doubt, but I don't think he gave much of a crap about the average Joe. On the other hand, I think Jobs did know how to make computing more accessible to the non-geek. Maybe Grant is trying to do the same thing, but I think he's mistaken as to what the barriers to cycling/commuting really are.

And while I don't want to turn this into a debate about Apple or Rivendell, what Apple has done in the industry goes far beyond fluff.

Yeah, but we're catching up to lap you.

Spandex hasn't been the thing that people ask me about when I tell them I rode my bike to work. I get the usual questions about distance, danger, and weather, but no one has every asked me about spandex. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I'm going with a tweed jacket, wool pants, oxford shirt, tie, and loafers tomorrow on my 15 mile commute. Not planning to change at work or take a shower. Hopefully won't get caught in a thunderstorm on the way home. Guess I'll tuck my pants legs into the socks, even though it will look silly.

I get similar questions. People do ask if I have a shower at work. It's not a direct question about clothing but people assume that a shower will be needed over a certain distance. Certainly not everyone will have a shower available and that's a barrier.

One of Grant's points was that cycling doesn't have to require a lot of work and his view was that for a commute under 10 miles you should be able to just dress for the weather and be fine. He might be right for flat commutes in moderate temps. I'm tempted to try it when we get some cooler weather. For me the exercise is part of the benefit. I've been a distance runner for a long time so the "work" factor of riding has never been a downside to me. But what if it was?

So the next time the early morning temp is in the low 60s or cooler I'm going to ride to work in my work clothes on my all-rounder. I'm going to deliberately go slow to limit sweat. I'll take a route that avoids the small hills that I normally encounter. I'm going to see how long it takes me, and I'll report back.

Any time that I've tried riding in the clothes that I intend to wear at my destination, pedaling easy and taking my time, sure, I avoid sweating during the ride, but as soon as I get off the bike, I turn into a furnace and end up sweating through my shirt anyway.

Have you owned, or extensively ridden, a Rivendell? If not, you really aren't qualified to say that.

They are absolutely beautiful, and yes...that's worth a premium to me. They retain value well, better than the Surly Varsentinals that will be worth $100 in 10 years. The folks I know who own them ride them hard and often...and they swear by them. Rivendell owners typically ride their bikes, so I tend to listen to their input.

As a reformed Windows user who is middle aged and who doesn't give a rat's behind about branding or imaging, my iMac is a pleasure to use and rarely frustrates me. It's now two years old and runs like it did from the box. I have never used a Windows based computer that didn't leave me frustrated after two years. When you compare Apple to Windows computers apples to apples...the pricing isn't that different; most Windows just use inferior specs.

I am a dorky, middle aged corporate guy...I have no delusions of being hip or cool...and my next computer will be an Apple because it's a superior product for my usage.

Dress for the weather? I thought the part of the argument was specifically NOT to dress differently.

Where I live the vast majority (perhaps 1:10) of utilitarian cyclist dress in non cycling clothing (although I don't know if they are dressed differently because they are riding). People motoring to work pretty much only see commuter cyclists in regular clothing with a few in spandex here and there. This whole argument that spandex is a turn off is absurd, manufactured. Who hasn't grown up riding bikes in regular clothing?

If one want to help breaking down barriers to cycling giving advice on what clothing is most comfortable, tips on carrying stuff, free deodorant samples, etc. may be more productive vs. telling experienced commuters they are doing it wrong.

the only cyclists that I hate are the ones that have a shower at work. hate, hate, hate

Agreed. I spent several years thinking about riding my bike to work, but what stopped me was not a lack of cycle-specific clothing or a racing bike, but that it was too easy to drive, and I had cheap or free parking! When the free parking was taken away, and I started taking the bus to save money, that's when I was motivated to start cycling.

I remember soon after I started cycling to work, a colleague of mine who did triathlons started razzing me about not wearing spandex. My response at the time was, "Clothing is not currently a limiting factor for me." Since then, I've learned the value of cycle-specific clothing for long rides, but I still wear loose cotton shorts and t-shirts for commuting.

No problem, it washes off easy after my commute.