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New bikes sold with internal hub, vertical dropouts?

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Old 08-24-12 | 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sauerwald
I'm confused as to the benefit of a quick release with an IGH. Because of the cabling for the shifter, it is never going to be easy to pop the wheel off of an IGH bike...
Disconnecting the shift cable on my Sturmey XRK8(W), RS-RF3, SRAM T3, iMotion3 or S7 hubs adds maybe another 5 seconds to removing the rear wheel. There's weight and rolling resistance to consider with 'bullet proof' tires. YMMV.
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Old 08-24-12 | 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sauerwald
I'm confused as to the benefit of a quick release with an IGH. Because of the cabling for the shifter, it is never going to be easy to pop the wheel off of an IGH bike, and my strategy would be to use a bulletproof tire so that I never have to fix a flat, and then not worry about it. In terms of production models, one bike which I know of which is offered with an eccentric BB is the Thorn Raven.
The main advantage of a quick release to me is one less tool to have to carry around. On the other hand, IGHs aren't cheap and if a nutted axle makes it less likely that somebody's going to walk off with that expensive wheel, then that's a plus.

I don't find the cabling hard to deal with. Once you've done it a couple of times, it's pretty simple.
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Old 08-24-12 | 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
I don't find the cabling hard to deal with. Once you've done it a couple of times, it's pretty simple.
it is a little funny how some people seem to be so intimidated by removing an IGH wheel because it takes a few seconds longer than removing a derailleur wheel.

on my IGH bike, the longest part of removing my rear wheel is loosening the axle nuts. disengaging the cable from my alfine 8 is pretty damn quick and simple now that i know what i'm doing. just pop in a tiny hex wrench to release the tension on the cable, then pop the nut out. done. what does that take, maybe 5 seconds?

if i had a QR axle for my IGH, it wouldn't be substantively longer than removing a conventional derailleur wheel with QR.
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Old 08-24-12 | 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
Kinda pricey though, but building a bike around the hub would be the way to do it.
Carrying a 15mm wrench or a 6" adjustable and buy the standard setup seems to be a lot more sensible and far less pricey IGH solution for every bad-weather commuter cycling scenario that I can think of.

Perhaps the OP can state why he wants the unique and unusual setup for a bad weather commuter and the $5 solution to his problem won't work.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 08-24-12 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 08-24-12 | 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Carrying a 15mm wrench or a 6" adjustable and buy the standard setup seems to be a lot more sensible and far less pricey IGH solution for every bad-weather commuter cycling scenario that I can think of.

Perhaps the OP can state why he wants the unique and unusual setup for a bad weather commuter and the $5 solution to his problem won't work.
Why do people buy garage door openers or cars with motorized doors?

Convenience.
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Old 08-24-12 | 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan
it is a little funny how some people seem to be so intimidated by removing an IGH wheel because it takes a few seconds longer than removing a derailleur wheel.
It actually takes me longer with a derailleur wheel! I always end up having a little trouble getting the cassette past the derailleur arm.
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Old 08-24-12 | 01:19 PM
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I carry a short 15mm box wrench and a 2mm allen wrench for the cable removal. If anything it may take me 2-3 minutes longer to get it all back together.
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Old 08-24-12 | 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
Why do people buy garage door openers or cars with motorized doors?
Muscle atrophy?
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Old 08-24-12 | 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kookaburra1701
The Windsor Kensington bicycles on Bikesdirect.com have vertical dropouts, but they have nutted wheels. I kind of view that as a bonus, makes theft harder. I keep a cheap 15mm wrench in my trunk bag just incase I need to change the tire out on the road.
The Windsor Kensington actually has forward facing dropouts, not vertical dropouts. It's the best dropout option for the Kensington. Vertical dropouts require chain tensioners or eccentric bottom brackets for setting chain tension. Rear facing track dropouts usually require you to remove the fender to remove the rear wheel. Forward facing dropouts take care of both issues.
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Old 08-24-12 | 07:26 PM
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A conventional drop out really works best for IGH if you are looking for economy and ease of use, and as stated allows for easier wheel removal if you run fenders which are almost mandatory on most commuter bicycles.

An eccentric bb and vertical dropout is nice solution but does add cost as a decent eccentric will add costs and they are not totally problem free and more complex than a conventional bottom bracket.

There is a little learning curve when it comes to removing and re-installing an IGH wheel on a conventional frame as you have to know how to set the chain tension and dial in the shifter, the vertical drop out and ebb eliminates this.

Track ends are a good solution when you are not running fenders and tug nuts can be used to easier alignment of the wheel and tensioning of the chain.
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Old 08-24-12 | 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
... An eccentric bb and vertical dropout is nice solution but does add cost as a decent eccentric will add costs and they are not totally problem free and more complex than a conventional bottom bracket...
I love the idea of eccentric BBs for the one fact that it puts to use all of the outdated/obsolete ashtabula BBs that were re-marketed in a more exclusive/profitable fashion.
As for vertical dropouts, they were a nice addition to bikes that had derailleurs and would allow wheel removal/installation without the need to readjust the rim brakes but when it comes to IGHs, (IMHO) horizontal dropouts are the better choice over eccentric BBs.
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Old 08-24-12 | 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
Why do people buy garage door openers or cars with motorized doors?

Convenience.
Are you serious? Do you actually believe convenience is driving the trouble and expense the OP is proposing with his peculiar requirement for a bad weather commuter? He already stated his reason is because of his "dislike" for horizontal dropouts and nutted axles based on his fussy inability to get "it" right. Whatever "it" is, it is not convenience.
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Old 08-25-12 | 09:10 AM
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Once nice feature of vertical dropouts (sliding or with EBB) is that you don't need to tighten the nut so hard so you can use a stubby wrench. I use a 5" dumbell.
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Old 08-25-12 | 05:27 PM
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Another great feature of vertical drops is that they allow you to roll with disc brakes.

I freaking love having disc brakes on my foul weather IGH commuter.
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Old 08-26-12 | 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan
it is a little funny how some people seem to be so intimidated by removing an IGH wheel because it takes a few seconds longer than removing a derailleur wheel.
That intimidation is just fear of the unknown. People don't want to accidentially damange an expensive part. Once shown that intimidation disappears. For those of us too lazy to go to a shop or living our lives online thank god for youtube. Of course once you've done it a couple times it's no big deal. But that first time, I was anxious.
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Old 08-26-12 | 08:23 AM
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It seems to me that a horizontal dropout would be easier to use than an eccentric bottom bracket. I don't understand why igh bikes don't come with track dropouts, myself. I almost considered buying a Masi Chixed mixte for that reason (until I picked it up and realized how heavy it was).
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Old 08-26-12 | 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sauerwald
I'm confused as to the benefit of a quick release with an IGH. Because of the cabling for the shifter, it is never going to be easy to pop the wheel off of an IGH bike, and my strategy would be to use a bulletproof tire so that I never have to fix a flat, and then not worry about it. In terms of production models, one bike which I know of which is offered with an eccentric BB is the Thorn Raven.
A lot of people are confused as to what gear they need to be in to take the wheel out, thinking they need to be in 4th or whatever gear it is that is used for cable tensioning. In fact, you want to be in the lowest gear as that's when the cable tension is slackest.
The first time I ever changed over to studs for my Metropolis, I first put the back tire on backwards, then pinched the tube and had a blowout, then finally got it right. Doing it three times in one hour was great practice and now it's dead easy, but I don't recommend that second step for obvious reasons.
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Old 08-26-12 | 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhodabike
A lot of people are confused as to what gear they need to be in to take the wheel out, thinking they need to be in 4th or whatever gear it is that is used for cable tensioning. In fact, you want to be in the lowest gear as that's when the cable tension is slackest.
Unless of course it's one of the many IGHs where the cable is slackest in the highest gear.
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Old 08-26-12 | 03:12 PM
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Unless of course it's one of the many IGHs where the cable is slackest in the highest gear.
Like Sturmey AW3, If the cable breaks , it fails into high gear.
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Old 08-29-12 | 07:15 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. (And hi Mark!)

To start, I never realized the cable tension changed on an IGH depending on what gear you had it in. I've never paid attention to what gear it was in when I took the wheel off. Maybe that's part of the "fussiness" I'm claiming to find. Also, I also look at this as the "work bike", so I usually want to have my trailer hitch on the axle, and for the winter I have a set of Reelights that I like to run, which also go on the axle, so trying to get all those things tightened onto the axle and also get the chain tension right, well, it's kind of a pain when you only have two hands, especially if I'm changing a flat on the side of the road in 30-degree F weather. (Thankfully, that doesn't actually happen too often, but theoretically it could. But my garage is none too warm in the Maine winter either, even with a space heater.)

What seems to happen is that I'll get it right before I start tightening, then when I tighten it seems the chain is a different tension than when I started tightening. I've learned to tighten alternating sides a little bit at a time, instead of each all at once, but it still sometimes takes me a few tries. I think I'm just a slow learner mechanically.

Finally, the hybrid I'm looking to replace is getting pretty old and the dropouts could be getting corroded or worn, so I'm sure that doesn't help.

By the way, in terms of the shifter cable issue, after several times taking the cable off and not being able to get it back on (I told you I'm not mechanically inclined), I did figure out how to change the tube without taking the cable off, but of course that still involves at least taking the wheel out of the dropouts.

Anyway, thanks for the education. The Axle Release product in particular looks like a good compromise. Sure, it only saves you having to carry a wrench, but I might consider them worth the convenience for the reasonable price.
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