UberGeek

I first taught my son how to drive in a parking lot, with placed obstacles. After some competency there, then it was onto the streets.

I didn't toss my son into the streets first. It's a progression.

kmv2

See, this is what I mean..

People driving over the limit, dangerously = normal
kids playing in the street = not normal,

In fact, kids playing in the street is SHOCKING! horrifying. Everyone should teach their kids to play in the designated 10x10 lawn and walk/ride on the sidewalk (if there is a sidewalk, otherwise stay on the 10x10 fenced in lawn and wear your "outdoors helmet" so you don't fall onto the grass, its a particular blade of grass that is harder than others and may cause minor abrasions and cuts to the face if fallen on or touched. Also, wear your beekeeper suit, don't want to get any insect bites! I saw a kid once without his beekeeper suit and thought "such terrible parents, he could have malaria, better stay in my car and avoid him."). But I digress.

What kind of priorities do we have in North America?

kmv2

good idea, and not on the sidewalk too....hmm

oldskoolwrench

Here in our little hamlet, riding on the sidewalk is technically against the law, although you see folks do it here all the time.

UberGeek

Cars are a little bit bigger than a sidewalk lol.

I would say parking lots are the equivalent of a sidewalk for cars

deeth82

This is quite true. Not to turn this into too political of a conversation, but...check out our media. They want to "warn" us about EVERYTHING! And if you ever see daytime television programming advertised, there are shows like The Doctors, where at least a few times per week they discuss something "...that could kill you! How to be prepared...only on The Doctors!" Certain 24-hour news channels want you to be afraid of what your government is doing, while others want you to be afraid to look away from "Kim Kardashian's new wardrobe!"

When I first bought a motorcycle, it was because I had always wanted one and was tired of being afraid of them. People at work and elsewhere told me "You're not very smart, are you...those are dangerous!"...to which I replied "Remind me of how dangerous it is when one day you're in a car accident and end up pinned inside of all that metal and plastic...anyone can die anywhere; at any time".

When I finally started bike-commuting, the same thing was said all over again, and I've had to explain to more and more people that a life prolonged through fear is no life at all. Now, fear is a gift born of instinct...it could tell us to swerve at the right moment, or we could get that heavy feeling in the pit of our guts and decide not to do something that could potentially harm us, but certain fears are just ingrained in us from all too early an age by societal interactions. Bike and Motorcycle commuting were first and foremost about facing fears and realizing that even though I must be vigilant, I don't have to be afraid. After that, they just became plain fun. I'm still learning to work through most of the fears, and in the meantime I'm festooned with festoonery; looking like a multi-colored caution sign.

xuwol7

Now I'm afraid to post......lol

I use streets or bike trail and only use the sidewalk when:

1. Like a previous post, I commute approx. 1 mile+ up an insanely steep hill with a lot of traffic on the street.

2. A 5 mile commute in an industrial area with fast big rigs and cars, and there is never anyone on the sidewalk(don't even know why there is one, probably city ordinance).

It boils down to common sense but I generally avoid and don't like riding on sidewalks.

I also wear a helmet, hi-viz clothes and lights even in the day, not fear, just common sense. Where I live cyclist seem to always be in season and not well liked.

Drew Eckhardt 

Riding on side walks is one of the most dangerous things you can do, especially in the opposite direction of traffic.

Cars aren't looking for vehicle speed traffic on side walks and much, much, much more likely to hit you at a driveway or intersection than if you were riding on the road.

Statistics back this up.

This also applies to "bike paths" which run along side but are separate from roads. I switched to commuting on a 35 MPH shoulder less road after getting hit where one intersected a road because it was safer.

buffalowings

Bike lanes are the safest option: liability/insurance wise. That's where you are legally supposed to be on. The sidewalk is a big no

91MF

just to be clear i quoted you, but am addressing the others as well who imply my 'taking the lane' comment has anything to do with testosterone and is 'total nonsense'.

in toronto, riding on the sidewalk is illegal and i 100% agree -- its for peds.

i take the lane with authority and caution WHEN NECESSARY.

i ride about 20-40cm off the curb normally but when required i take what the MTO HTA allows me. this is possible.

making eye contact at 30kmh is possible. even when they see you, pretend they didn't see you. sometimes its better when they don't. you can be a ghost in traffic. if i catch a bus leaving a stop and entering an intersection i follow tight curbside near the bumper. traffic is irrelevant for a few seconds as you 'become part of the bus'. (you can do this with cars too but i advise more caution. the bus wont go unless it is for sure clear)

making calculations based on experience is possible. when the light is green, pretend you are running a red. watch the front wheel angle on all cars around you and ahead in turn lanes. watch walk/dont walk signs. the countdown is a timer for that subaru to hit you. double shoulder check in anticipation for a necessary manoeuvre. if you dont have time to double check, you dont have time for the manoeuvre.

i can keep going but, high alert, focus and patience are the keys. twice a day for about an hour and i have no issues. its relaxing.



good luck enjoying your commute riding afraid.

bhchdh 

I don't ride on the sidewalk because I'm not walking.

ItsJustMe

I live in Chelsea, work in Dexter and have been into Ann Arbor a few times. I don't really have any trouble riding in A2. I haven't ridden there extensively but I generally come down Dexter-Ann Arbor road, cut through subs and go down Eisenhower, which is pretty busy.

I guess I'd use the sidewalks as needed especially around tricky intersections, but as a navigational option, not because I fear traffic. The big thing to remember is that every transition between sidewalk, road, driveway and crosswalk is an opportunity to be surprised in a bad way. Use extreme caution on each transition point.

caloso

well put

CommuteCommando

Sidewalks are almost always a stupid place for a bike. There are some instances where the roadway is so scary that even I take to the sidewalk, but those are exceptional circumstances. To be safe on a side walk involves riding at damn near a walking pace (gag). I avoid areas like that unless I have absolutely no other alternative. If there is a designated bike lane adjacent, riding on a sidewalk is inexcusable.

Don in Austin

How can statistics possibly back up sidewalk riding being more dangerous than street riding when the typical sidewalk rider is very different from the typical street rider? That enormous variable makes any statistics meaningless. Sidewalk riding is as safe or as dangerous as you and the nature of the particular sidewalk make it. That is why absolute statements about it being dangerous are silly. Sure going 20 mph on a sidewalk full of pedestrians and busy business entrances is pretty much impossible to make safe. What about the sidewalk that is deserted except the lone cyclist who chooses to ride it and that has virtually no driveways across it? Who holds a gun to the cyclist's and prevents the cyclist from yielding to driveway traffic and pedestrians? Riding in the opposite direction of traffic has the advantage that you can easily see if someone is going to turn in. If they are, just stop. You can make sidewalk riding dangerous, but it doesn't always have to be.

FWIW, here in Austin, Texas I am sorry to say we lose several cyclists a year. To the best of my knowledge, they have all been hit in the road. But again, statistics mean absolutely nothing when you have huge variables there is no way to adjust for.

Don in Austin

91MF

maybe when you sidewalk riders are old and you are out for your 4pm stroll back from seniors discount dinner you are struck by a MTB on the sidewalk and break your hip. then you can use one of those motorized little scooters.

they are allowed on the sidewalk.

PatrickGSR94

The section of street where I live is a dead-end. No cars except those who live on that short section of street. Kids are often seen in the street and it's not a big deal. On an adjacent street there are often kids playing basketball with a goal set up facing out into the street. Again no big deal. I was just referring to one particular area that almost ALL cars in the entire neighborhood must drive on to get to their homes, and as such the traffic is pretty high, especially in the morning and the evening. Combine that with the blind curve, cars parked on both sides so that there's only room for a single through lane, and kids right there in the street on that curve not paying attention. Yeah, it's just asking for something bad to happen, if nothing else because most drivers in the US are dolts.

And if you must know, my son and I often walk the neighborhood and walk to the park with NO SHOES ON! Much to the chagrin of my wife... barefoot is best. I just have to endure the shoes while at work or on my bike.

cooker

You can't do a controlled study where you assign matched pairs of cyclists to ride on the sidewalk or road, you can only infer from naturalistic data. It took about 10 seconds of bing searching to find this 1994 article which purporst to show higher risks of sidewalk cycling. I can't open it as I don't have a subscription to the journal.
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art82242
However, here is one person's summary of the findings:
https://onelesscar.wordpress.com/2008...oad-bicycling/

for example: "The greatest risk found in this study is for bicyclists over 18 traveling against traffic on the sidewalk. Each of these characteristics is hazardous in itself; combined, they present 5.3 times the average risk."

xuwol7

I feel like living on the edge today, I'm going to ride barefoot on a sidewalk with no helmet against traffic.
Can't find any stats so I am probably safe....lol

When commuting I choose the best and safest option, time of day and weather also play a big role in this too.
Last winter I was caught in a hail storm with snow and 30mph wind mixed in and I took the sidewalk home, nobody else seemed to be using it at the time (10pm).
Trucks and cars were driving sideways mostly, no fear here but did have a helmet, lights and studded snow tires.
I actually enjoy riding on the street because my fitness level can keep up with the cars (15-20mph streets)

PatrickGSR94

Hail AND snow? That's gotta be rare...

Around here most of our streets, if not in a residential area, are 35 - 55 MPH speed limits. No way in heck any cyclist of any fitness level could ever keep up with cars on those roads. But I ride the roads anyway. High-viz and lights help motorists see me earlier, so they can move over and pass earlier.

kmv2

No, unless you're in one of the rare areas where that is true.

If you were legally supposed to be in a bike lane, cars should then legally only be on major highways, right? If we didn't have double standards, you'd park at the offramp, turn the car off and into neutral and push it through the bike lane (don't drive in the bike lane! bike lane is for bikes!) to the next highway, and remount turn the key and be off.

kmv2

Good that you agree!
Its just looking at the circumstances with a different set of eyes. I just don't think it should be accepted as normal that motor vehicles should be accommodated at all costs.

I spent the summers barefoot growing up. Barefoot is great!

kmv2

Oh thought you taught him to ride in a parking lot.
I did my first couple drivers ed courses in a parking lot though. From a liability point of view its a good place to have your first at fault crash!

UberGeek

Well, the lots were empty when I had him out there... But, in NYS, collisions in a parking lot are always considered "No fault".

PaulRivers

I do whatever makes sense.

The thing to remember about a sidewalk is to act like a pedestrian on foot any time you intersect with a street or there's anyone else near you on the trail. If this is to annoying, then you should be riding on the street.

I ride the sidewalk when I cross a bride near my house that has on and off ramps from the freeway, as I personally find it absolutely insane to ride on the street through that mess of merging cars, stoplights, higher speed traffic, etc etc. I'd rather act like a pedestrian than be on the road there.

I'd also rather ride the sidewalk on a stretch of sidewalk that runs along a park by where I work than ride the road, because there's never anyone on the sidewalk (and if there is I slow way down to near-walking speeds when going by them), and there's no roads intersecting the sidewalk for about a mile.

On the other hand I definitely take the road when there's a sidewalk that actually has people regularly walking on it, or sidewalk where there's a lot of intersection. Though there I usually try to find low traffic side roads to take instead.

In order of preference, I'd say that generally I prefer -
1. Dedicated off-road bike path with few or no road crossings (well duh, lol)
2. Side roads with little or no car traffic, including bike...what is it called? The ones where they choose a low traffic road and stripe it and mark it as only local car traffic only
3. Sidewalks with pretty much no pedestrian traffic and no intersections
4. Roads with medium traffic but 2 lanes in each direction so cars can pass me - but pass me without doing that "wow that car is really close" thing

Honestly, I just won't ride on most other roads unless it's only for a short stretch to connect to something lower traffic. And I find most bike lanes to be hazardous - often it's cars on one side, parked cars with the risk of being doored on the other. They always seem to put them on high speed, high traffic roads, to.

I'd far rather ride on a low traffic side street than ride a sidewalk with intersections along a road, but sometimes riding on the sidewalk is a far better choice when using it as a short connection between 2 low traffic stretches of road/trail etc. Like I said above, I have 2 rules for riding on the sidewalk -
1. Act like a pedestrian when crossing a street
2. Act like a pedestrian when passing or coming up on people actually walking or jogging

If my choice is between a chaotic high traffic road or a sidewalk with a lot of pedestrian traffic or a lot of intersections - sorry, I'm just going to drive. It's not worth the risk for me.