This description isn't **completely** off, but I still think it misses a few things -

1. I have a 20 minute commute by car, it's a little under an hour by bike (I've ridden it, so that's a real number not theoretical). Just saying - my general rule of thumb is that a bike commute if it has a good path / route is 2-3 times longer than by car, but I haven't seen a commute with a good bike route that's 20 minutes by car but 2 hours by bike (clearly without a good route it can be).

2. People like to bring up New York. Have you been to New York? I have, I stayed in someone's apartment that was considered "middle class" by New York standards - a 1 bedroom 600 square foot place that costs $3,200 / month. Yeah, I put the comma in there to be clear - for what I could rent a borderline mansion for in the suburbs here, you get a 600 square foot apartment for in New York. I don't think that's worth the tradeoff. Are sky high rent prices a natural result of incredibly pack population density?

3. I've known multiple people who have tried living a car-free lifestyle. They *always* go back to having a car. And it's not *just* about distance either - a lot of times it's about weather, you forgot how much easier it is to get in your car and drive somewhere when it's wet, cold, etc, than it is on a bike. And snow - living in Minnesota, a couple of times a year snow makes it impossible to drive. It's even worse on a bike - even with the best of gear, and even with idealized city plowing of bike trails, more than a couple of inches of snow makes it impossible to commute. Even a Pugsley will often be halted by 6 inches or more of snow, and even when you can make it through the snow your time to get anywhere is 2-3x longer.

And that's for someone who's in fairly good shape, and isn't dropping off small children, or needing the carry large objects...

Lets bring this back to the 5 point the article makes:

1. Stop selling fear.
   Agreed on principle, do not agree on the helmet stuff. I've done an endo as a kid and blacked out before. I'd like some kind of protection, even if it doesn't work at 50km/h or protect against concussions.
2. Start riding like adults.
   The complain by motorists (including myself when I do drive) is that cyclists are unpredictable. With drivers, because they're following some kind of rules, they're more predictable. Some of the stuff he listed is just basically a no-no (left turn from right hand side). Some, I think if all the cyclist act the same way, would make it easier for the motorists.
3. Save the spandex for when you need it.
   I like my junk, and I don't care about style, so I wear the bike shorts. If I feel conspicuous wearing bike shorts, then I wear it underneath a pair of real shorts. Commuting is mostly not fast enough for the tight clothing to matter, but I don't like pain in tender regions. I think it is unfair to blame all cyclist for the attire - That's like blaiming firefighters wearing protective clothing. They don't when they do need to. What we should be letting people understand that they can wear normal clothes, with some awareness that they should keep clothing out of the chains for safety and fashion reasons. We can recommend padded stuff to wear underneath if they are not comfortable with the styling. When people are pounding out 40-50km/h (and I see those people around here, cause they're faster than I and double back on the distances that I do), I won't blame them for wearing tight bike shorts.
4. Be nice to others.
   A lot of that is compromise on both sides. Stay out of sidewalks as much as we can, give people lots of heads up on multi-use paths. The slowest cyclist will have to pass pedestrians, saying hello or not is irrelevent. What is relevent is to give the pedestrian a heads up long enough so that they don't jump around. Also, know where you should pass. I'll be the first to admit I've made mistakes (including yesterday) where I've passed at places where I shouldn't, surprised by incoming traffic, and have to choose on braking hard or sprinting out of the way. Neither way is ideal, and I wasn't as nice as I should be. It's ok to try and put the pedal to the metal, as long as it's clear of hazards, and people are aware of what you're doing to do ahead of time.
5. Tell industry leaders to embrace the reality of a mature, cycling rich culture.
   I really don't agree with the author on this one. He deems that anyone who wants to cycle for sport as immature, and people who cycle in normal attires as adult. I'll be polite and call that shortsighted - cycling is not a transistor, there's no on/off, or right/wrong on this. I have friends that do it for leisure first, fitness second, and avoids road riding by getting on the sidewalk. I tend to see cycling as fitness and commute on equal footing, and head to the road before I ride on a busy sidewalk. Aside from the fact that I want to get him off the riding on the sidewalk part, I think it's perfectly find that we see cycling differently.
   
   I have friends that bombs down a mountain, and outclimbs me on a commuter, and he wear lycra shorts on commuter rides. Is he immature too?
   
   I push myself on a bike not because I'm immature, but because I would be working out hard enough to force myself to focus, and to learn discipline (like commuting instead of taking the bus), and to save a couple of bucks where I can. I don't pretend that this is the vision that other have, so let's find one that work for them. It doesn't have to mean that I should diminish my own views and desires on cycling, or to force my own way onto others.
   
   Just because we prefer speed and distance, doesn't mean we can't guide others to find their own cycling nirvana. It's like watching my friend outclimb me on a urban ride - even though he would much prefer getting caked in mud, he was there to help me find my own place in cycling.

I'm pretty sure Denmark has cooler temps than in Florida. For half the year, I'm dripping sweat just from walking 20 ft outside to the mailbox. The idea of wearing regular clothes to bike anywhere is absurd. I'd be a soggy mess. I wear cycling clothes when commuting to deal with the sweat. Fortunately I have showers at work. More employers need to provide showers.

Regarding not wearing helmets, I know someone who was just riding slowly down the sidewalk with his daughter. Fell over, hit his head, became a vegetable. Yes, not wearing a helmet can certainly kill you. You could probably make a similar argument for wearing a helmet when walking though.

But maybe not everybody else wants to see it so much...

There's another whole school of thought: cycling infrastructure should be designed so that the immature, inexperienced, impulsive brain of an 8 year old can safely navigate it.

My personal belief is that nothing would get adult cyclists back to their cars faster than true, full realized "8 to 80" infrastructure, but hey, you know, public discourse is a marketplace of ideas.

Part of that might be that my commute was 25min at best in a car, almost all freeway; and the bike route on surface roads is a little longer, and has to get across "mission gorge", so there's no avoiding some significant hillage (this was my approximate bike route). And part of it is surely that I'm not as strong a rider as you. There's no way I could average 20mph on even flat terrain without a serious tailwind. And the article is focusing on how to get the masses onto bikes, not just the athletic.

OK, now you're just asking for a flame war, posting that on the bike commuting thread! There's tons of guys around here that have been proudly (and sometimes even obnoxiously) car-free for decades. But I get it; since I moved and commute by bike full time, one car is essentially out of commission (but still once in a while we need to be in two places at the same time), and the wife loves to bike too, but face it, sometimes a family with three kids got to get places, and the minivan is the tool that makes more sense than forcing all 5 of us to kit up and ride our bikes 20 miles, hauling whatever stuff we need to use whenever we get wherever we're going.

That's fair, so if I'm going to bike into town and walk around, I wear shorts to cover the bike shorts. I don't want to walk around in the bike shorts any more than others want to see my crotch.

It doesn't mean the bike shorts has no value (it's useful if you ride long), or doesn't belong in a world where cycling is more pervasive. Nor does it mean that everyone that has bike shorts should be banned from wearing them, just because someone doesn't like the look.

Fair enough -- I just jumped on the punchline; you set up a high fastball, I had to hit it!

Of course everyone's commute, geographical layout and climate are exactly the same. Why else would one do it any differently?

My commute by car is 12.5 miles, and it takes me right at 20-22 minutes. Only a couple of traffic lights to deal with, but it's all 2-lane 35, 45, and 55 MPH rural roads. By bike I go about 14.5 miles (stay off the 55 MPH roads) and it take me right at 61-62 minutes. And believe me I'm a SLOW rider. But I still wear lycra because it's better. And my office has a shower, because it got us a LEED point towards being LEED Gold certified when we designed the building. :)

LEED gives you a point if you put in a shower and bike rack so that people can bike to work. I don't use the bike rack, though, I park my bike next to my desk inside. :thumb:

THIS! THIS right here is pure GOLD! I had never thought of it like that but that is SO TRUE! I've hated suburban sprawl ever since I first learned about it and its effects in architecture school. Me and my family have lived in "suburban" areas since 1993. I personally love the city and wish I could get out of the 'burbs and back into the city, but finances won't allow it right now (city property taxes are several times what mine are now, and in fact were just hiked even more this week).

We are not communists; people are not forced to live where they do, and on the whole Americans prioritize larger houses and yards over a short, bikable commute.

I'm glad this resonated with you. If you want to go more in depth, I think this is the interview in question, but I can't be sure. It was certainly one of these though...

Quoting the blurb,

And, they value the large house and yards, over a short commute because we subsidize the choice in favor of large houses, large yards, and long commutes.

In fact, the US government subsidizes fuel prices at about $7 per gallon.

Then don't look at it?


But we're not communists!
Almost everyone is entitled to a government subsidized food, house, car, energy, etc. If you're lucky you can even work for them (largest single employer in the USA, no?).
Wait.. maybe you are communists..

I know its a leap, but if you own your house, you could theoretically sell now, put the money in a decent savings account and rent in the city and potentially pay rent the rest of your life off the profits of the house. Considering the property tax, etc you pay on the property now too.

I'm part of the "helmet wearing, lycra wearing, fast riding, suburban living, gas guzzling car" crowd.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=321271

haha not likely, my house is probably worth less than what I owe on it right now. Or I wouldn't get for it what I owe right now. But we're not behind on the payments so we just keep paying.

FWIW I bought the house we're in now back in 2006, precisely because it was less than 3 miles from my office. I was living with my parents at the time after college and commuting 100 miles a day (by car obviously haha), so I got my own place as soon as I had money saved up. But then 2 years after I bought the house, my office moved farther away from me (and closer to my boss heh, he's just 100 yards away, literally).

But as far as renting, most rental places that meet our needs are higher than our mortgage note. Plus I HAVE to have a garage with my air tools and all that stuff. :D

I see what you're saying, but that's assuming one has paid the house off/can make substantial profits off the sale. That being said, I keep telling people my age (30) and younger to rent as long as they can; especially if they can't afford a house at 35% or less of their monthly income. I remind them of all the money and energy you sink into maintenance and upkeep that you never see again, even if you get 100% return on the mortgage. When you rent, you pick up the phone and call the landlord, and it's on them. :)

1. I never ride without my helmet. And if not for this policy, I'd certainly have a semi-serious injury. I didn't crack the helmet, but it's severely scratched. I'd at least be missing some scalp.

2. Tough one. I do take lights & Cali roll stop signs. Dead wrong and I'll own that. I do it as safely as possible, for whatever that's worth.

I also ride on the sidewalk and between lanes when traffic doesn't allow me to fit where a bike lane would be. I'd change this if there were bike lanes any where near my commuting route. I'd have to ride a mile out of the way for .5 mi of bike lane. My direct commute is 2.7 mi.

Selfishly, most of what I do is to save time. My commute is only 2.7 mi, and it takes roughly 15 minutes, bike or car. At the same time, frustrated drivers would run me over if I rode the middle of lanes like a car. The scolding & spiteful close passing I experience on the few occasions I do ride the middle of the lane is enough for me to avoid that tactic at all cost.

3. I always commute in regular clothes. And most of the cyclist I see do the same. I currently live in DC and I'm from NYC. I only wear sporting gear on exercise rides in the park, but that's still just basketball/sweat shorts, t-shirt & track sneakers. It's only on these rides that I see a significant number of bikers wearing biking gear.

4. I only greet fellow riders during my commute, but I'm always courteous to walkers & runners.

5. I've been meaning to, but I have yet to join my local bike association. This reminded me.

----

I rented in NY, then rented in MD (DC Suburbs) prior to buying in DC. Being from Brooklyn, I missed city life and its conveniences. My mortgage, taxes & insurance is roughly $125 more than my prior rent. The time & money saved by living in the city more than makes up for it. Commuting, I pay nothing now versus $8/day on public transportation (DC Metro is more expensive than NYC Transit).

I never rode a bike from MD into work, but that would be a hell of a ride and I doubt I could do it on my single-speed. And the direct route would be mostly on a 6-lane busy street in MD and a 4-lane busy street in DC, no bike lanes. I'm not sure how far out of the way I'd have to go to enjoy some bike lanes, but DC is not very bike friend from my experience.

During one neighborhood meeting, a bike lane for one of the main streets through the neighborhood was discussed. I was the only one in favor. Most were concerned with the loss of parking on one side of the street. When I asked which they'd prefer, me slowing them down on the road or less parking, the response was "ride on the sidewalk", which is legal here.

I was just in NYC this weekend. Yeah, biking is big there. If I could afford the same house in a similar neighborhood in Brooklyn, I'd go back in a hear beat. But the changes in Brooklyn (can't believe we have an arena) have raised property values way beyond my reach.

I didn't mean to imply that helmets have a magical safety bubble around them. I also don't stigmatize riders not wearing helmets on the road, even though I disagree with their decision.

If I'm riding on a MUP at 10-15mph and slip out on a puddle, I'm much more likely to not hit my head. Might break a wrist or get some scrapes, but nothing serious.

If I'm riding on the road at 20-30mph and a car pulls out in front of me, I'm going head first over the car and onto the street. Much higher chance of a head impact.


Anyway, there's already a helmet thread for this stuff.

If falling on your head is so dangerous, why don't we wear helmets all the time... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/he...tats.html?_r=0
Most accidents at home happen in the bathroom... so perhaps we need bath helmets, and walking helmets and certainly motoring helmets... yet, there is a fascination with foam hats for cyclists.

Yeah, I'll admit I wear one... when commuting on high speed arterial roads with cell phone distracted motorists... maybe that helmet will be my last line of defense. But when I cruise down to a local grocery store... I go in regular clothes and with bare head. I enjoy the wind in my thinning hair and the road speeds are a comfortable residential 25MPH. If I need a helmet to bike in that environment, I probably need one to walk too.

+1 me too! Enjoy it while you got it!

Reminds me of that star trek movie where Data was offered humanity by the Borg, and how he was fascinated by the feeling of a breeze through arm hair.

Once you're over 65 and especially 85, a helmet in the bathroom might be a good idea since it's mostly those folks getting hurt there. If not a helmet, at least the judicious placement of hand rails. Still head injuries from bathroom falls are less common than head injuries from cycling.

Cycling accounts for more head injuries than any other recreational activity as well. Twice as many as football. It's your choice.

Did you convince "those people" to go back to having a car ??...And how about people who decide to go car-free and remain that way and never purchase another vehicle ??...


Car-free lifestyle is based on location of where the person lives and not upon nice weather.
As long as all the neccessities of life are within biking/walking/public transit distance, then it's easy to live car-free, it doesn't matter how bad the weather gets.


I hate the word "impossible" and I have decided long time ago to eliminate that word from my vocabulary...Seriously what the heck does the weather have to do with car-free lifestyle ??



I am in above average physical shape. And all I can tell you is that super fitness is irrelevent to a car-free lifestyle. There are a lot of "normal" people who are not super fit and they live car-free...So just because LCF lifestyle is not for you doesn't mean it's impossible for others to live that way.

I don't completely disagree with anything on this list. I think helmets are a good idea and I don't like to ride more than a few miles without Lycra, but we've argued those points more than enough. The thing I'd like to say about this list is that I don't believe these are the things that keep people from riding bikes.

People don't think that cycling is dangerous because they're told that helmets are necessary. They think cycling is dangerous because it looks and feels dangerous. If you get on a bike and ride down the street for any length of time you're going to get buzzed by a car and if you aren't used to it, it's going to freak you out. Whether it really is dangerous or not, it feels dangerous and it takes some time and determination to get used to it. Besides, mandatory seat belt laws and the proliferation of air bags aren't keeping people out of cars. Driving feels safe, whether it is or not, so people don't even give it a thought. There's a lot of debate about whether or not bicycle infrastructure actually improves safety, but without a doubt it makes bicycling feel safer.

I don't see anything in the other four points that even looks like an obstacle to cycling. Other people ride like idiots so I should ride? I don't see it. And that's the best of the other four.

+1

When you're used to traveling inside something, not being inside feels unsafe.

I sort of get his point about riding like idiots, though I think it's more complicated than that. If you as a driver come to despise cyclists for whatever reason, you're less likely to become one.

There's been some interesting studies about cheating on tests. I may have the exact details wrong but here's what I remember: Students were given a test consisting of 20 questions. They also got $20. They had to give back a dollar for each question they got wrong. They had 20 minutes to complete the entire test. The questions were such that it was obvious when you got the answer right and it was entirely on the honor system. The students were to put their answer sheet in a shredder when they were done. As far as they knew, there was no evidence. They didn't know that the shredder only shredded the edges of the paper and the answers were in fact left intact.

One student was a plant. In one session he got up immediately, announced that he was done and walked away with his money. The other students knew that he couldn't have possibly finished the entire test. Cheating was rampant because they knew there were no consequences.

In another session, the same student pulled the same stunt, except this time he was wearing a t-shirt from a hated rival school. In this case, there was relatively little cheating because no one wanted to be like "that guy from...".

My family while growing up was no example of physical fitness. We lived car-free the entire 18 years I was living at home, and my mother is still car free to this day.

The author is a BF member, Ajenkins I believe, it would be interesting to have him chime in....