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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 15704812)
Once you're over 65 and especially 85, a helmet in the bathroom might be a good idea since it's mostly those folks getting hurt there. If not a helmet, at least the judicious placement of hand rails. Still head injuries from bathroom falls are less common than head injuries from cycling.
Cycling accounts for more head injuries than any other recreational activity as well. Twice as many as football. It's your choice. |
Originally Posted by Andy_K
(Post 15704861)
I don't completely disagree with anything on this list. I think helmets are a good idea and I don't like to ride more than a few miles without Lycra, but we've argued those points more than enough. The thing I'd like to say about this list is that I don't believe these are the things that keep people from riding bikes.
People don't think that cycling is dangerous because they're told that helmets are necessary. They think cycling is dangerous because it looks and feels dangerous. If you get on a bike and ride down the street for any length of time you're going to get buzzed by a car and if you aren't used to it, it's going to freak you out. Whether it really is dangerous or not, it feels dangerous and it takes some time and determination to get used to it. Besides, mandatory seat belt laws and the proliferation of air bags aren't keeping people out of cars. Driving feels safe, whether it is or not, so people don't even give it a thought. There's a lot of debate about whether or not bicycle infrastructure actually improves safety, but without a doubt it makes bicycling feel safer. I don't see anything in the other four points that even looks like an obstacle to cycling. Other people ride like idiots so I should ride? I don't see it. And that's the best of the other four. I think the "safety excuse" just adds another excuse to the laziness issue... yet further rationalization to just drive. |
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15704818)
Did you convince "those people" to go back to having a car ??...And how about people who decide to go car-free and remain that way and never purchase another vehicle ??...
Car-free lifestyle is based on location of where the person lives and not upon nice weather. As long as all the necessities of life are within biking/walking/public transit distance, then it's easy to live car-free, it doesn't matter how bad the weather gets. I hate the word "impossible" and I have decided long time ago to eliminate that word from my vocabulary...Seriously what the heck does the weather have to do with car-free lifestyle ?? I am in above average physical shape. And all I can tell you is that super fitness is irrelevent to a car-free lifestyle. There are a lot of "normal" people who are not super fit and they live car-free...So just because LCF lifestyle is not for you doesn't mean it's impossible for others to live that way. Even here in San Diego, there are some neighborhoods that really foster a car free existence and others that are practically hostile to peds and cyclists. I recall working in one area that had minimal sidewalks, and just to go across the street to a shopping center from my office required that I walked either in traffic in a busy driveway or through gardens and across lawns. (I thought it just down right lazy to drive the 1/2 a block from my building to the mall area where the food court was.) |
Originally Posted by Steely Dan
(Post 15703092)
YAY!!!!!!!!! a helmet debate thread!
these always lead to the most productive discussions on bikeforums! DOUBLE YAY!!!!!!! a bicycle fashion debate thread! these always lead to the most productive discussions on bikeforums! let's all get ready to learn, learn, and learn! opinion passed off as fact is so informative. **SHUT THE F UP** ABOUT HELMETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't CARE what your OPINION is about being "a fool" for not wearing one -- OPINIONS are like SPHINCTERS...EVERYBODY has one, most all STINK. If you feel stupid not wearing one, WEAR one. Call *ME* stupid or foolish, and we have a PROBLEM. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 15705284)
I think the biggest obstacle to cycling is laziness...I think the "safety excuse" just adds another excuse to the laziness issue... yet further rationalization to just drive.
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Originally Posted by genec
(Post 15705258)
How can that be considering that everyone uses a bathroom at some point during the day, but not everyone rides a bike. Of course not everyone falls in the bathroom, but then not every cyclist falls either... but the sheer difference in the number of cyclists vrs bathroom users has got to make bathroom falls more common.
Still, 90% of the cyclists killed in 2009 were not wearing a helmet, - most of them were middle aged men. |
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15705425)
How about "bad weather excuse" ??...I think bad weather can really play tricks on the persons mind and cause them to give in to "laziness" or give in to fear of getting sick..and they end up driving instead of biking.
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 15705430)
Still, 90% of the cyclists killed in 2009 were not wearing a helmet, - most of them were middle aged men.
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I like the goals of this article and do think the writer is sincere, but reality does get in the way.
Relatively speaking cycling is not a safe mode of travel in the US as only pedestrians and motorcyclists have higher death rates. Victoria Transportation Institute has stats on fatality rates by miles traveled broken down by mode: commuter rail: 0.1 transit bus: 0.6 passenger car: 7.9 cyclists: 82.2 pedestrian: 198 motorcycle: 303 http://www.vtpi.org/safetrav.pdf And yes when you do look at it by number of trips taken the gaps will narrow but they will not close as far as any data that I have seen. Does this stop me from riding? No, but it does make me rethink certain trips, riding at certain hours, specific routes, etc. |
Originally Posted by RubeRad
(Post 15703938)
Part of that might be that my commute was 25min at best in a car, almost all freeway; and the bike route on surface roads is a little longer, and has to get across "mission gorge", so there's no avoiding some significant hillage (this was my approximate bike route). And part of it is surely that I'm not as strong a rider as you. There's no way I could average 20mph on even flat terrain without a serious tailwind. And the article is focusing on how to get the masses onto bikes, not just the athletic.
Originally Posted by RubeRad
(Post 15703938)
OK, now you're just asking for a flame war, posting that on the bike commuting thread! There's tons of guys around here that have been proudly (and sometimes even obnoxiously) car-free for decades. But I get it; since I moved and commute by bike full time, one car is essentially out of commission (but still once in a while we need to be in two places at the same time), and the wife loves to bike too, but face it, sometimes a family with three kids got to get places, and the minivan is the tool that makes more sense than forcing all 5 of us to kit up and ride our bikes 20 miles, hauling whatever stuff we need to use whenever we get wherever we're going.
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15704818)
Did you convince "those people" to go back to having a car ??...And how about people who decide to go car-free and remain that way and never purchase another vehicle ??...
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15704818)
Car-free lifestyle is based on location of where the person lives and not upon nice weather. As long as all the neccessities of life are within biking/walking/public transit distance, then it's easy to live car-free, it doesn't matter how bad the weather gets.
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15704818)
I hate the word "impossible" and I have decided long time ago to eliminate that word from my vocabulary...Seriously what the heck does the weather have to do with car-free lifestyle ??
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 15704818)
I am in above average physical shape. And all I can tell you is that super fitness is irrelevent to a car-free lifestyle. There are a lot of "normal" people who are not super fit and they live car-free...So just because LCF lifestyle is not for you doesn't mean it's impossible for others to live that way.
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 15705430)
Bathroom falls can be more common but that doesn't mean that as many result in serious head injury. But I checked the stats again anyway and I think I found the difference. The bicycling stats included kids under 14 while the bathroom stats didn't. Kids under 14 accounted for almost half of the cycling head injuries. So taking that into consideration bathroom falls do result in more head injuries for adults but if you excluded adults over 65, I'm not sure that would be true.
Still, 90% of the cyclists killed in 2009 were not wearing a helmet, - most of them were middle aged men. |
I live currently in Sioux Falls SD from Southern California and biked through a crazy winter and into June the weather is blowing my mind and I have commuted every day here for almost 1 year on a bicycle.
There is much talk about making South Dakota "bicylcle friendly" but the reality is that is not going to happen, The Great Plains finished almost dead last in the recent bike friendly places to live. I think there may be a "hunting season" on us....ouch I still cycle every day because I want to, helmet, hi viz clothes, lights and all. (In Cali I was an Aerospace Engineer and Professional Jazz Bassist). I really liked the basic tone of the article that USA needs to grow up and I would really like to hear what the Author has to say about this, Mr. Jenkins? |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 15706027)
Well...err...I looked it up, and according to my gps I went 11.41 miles at 12.6mph average speed. I mean to be fair - I gain some on the bike because I avoid rush hour traffic which slows me down some (it's slower, but not stop and go in the car). And my bike route only has like 2 stoplights on it.
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 15706131)
I'm really curious where these statistics you're quoting are from...I'm definitely surprised to hear that it's "middle aged men" who make up the largest group...
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
(Post 15707237)
My guess, thats just a statistical reflection of middle-aged men being the largest demographic that cycles. How many middle-aged men have you seen out on their bikes since the last time you saw a 10-year old girl on her bike? (Unless you have a 10-year-old daughter, you know what I mean...)
when i take longer recreational rides out in the burbs on a sunday afternoon, the white middle-age male demographic is in full control out there. |
my $.02
Originally Posted by jowilson
(Post 15702067)
I think the helmet thing should be thought over a bit more... Because saying that helmets don't help with protecting the head from trauma is bullsh*t.
But I think what the author was trying to propose is that roads should be safe for EVERYONE. Cyclists and motorists alike. I thought this was well written and wanted to add my thoughts to it as well.
Originally Posted by calyth
(Post 15703587)
Lets bring this back to the 5 point the article makes:
i think that the article was off on this point as well. I enjoy mountain biking, commuting and even road riding. I am finding that I really like commuting more because it gives a purpose to my riding over a plain road ride. i think that the industry is coming out with more and more commuter specific bikes and that helps with getting more people on a bike to and from work. |
Has anyone else looked at the author's five points with regard to cars?
1. Stop selling fear. 2. Start riding like adults. I don't have a survey handy saying how many drivers think other people drive like idiots, but I have a fair idea what it would say. 3. Save the spandex for when you need it. 4. Be nice to others. 5. Tell industry leaders to embrace the reality of a mature, cycling rich culture. This one cracks me up anyway. The guy wants people to treat bicycling for transportation as if it's "normal" but he also wants industry magazines dedicated to this "normal" activity. Yeah, I'll look for that right after the premier issue of Minivans Monthly. And Bicycle Times...this has been bugging me lately. Yes, it's a very different magazine than Bicycling, but is it really any less consumer oriented? True, the reviews don't focus on $8,000+ carbon race bikes. Instead they focus on $2,000+ steel utility bikes. I don't need a $2,000 utility bike any more than I need an $8,000 race bike. I can race on a $500 bike and use a $100 bike for utility purposes. Just because the magazine caters to the tweed crowd doesn't make it any more grown up. |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 15706131)
I'm really curious where these statistics you're quoting are from...I'm definitely surprised to hear that it's "middle aged men" who make up the largest group...
The one about average age is under Table 3. |
Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
(Post 15704037)
THIS! THIS right here is pure GOLD! I had never thought of it like that but that is SO TRUE! I've hated suburban sprawl ever since I first learned about it and its effects in architecture school. Me and my family have lived in "suburban" areas since 1993. I personally love the city and wish I could get out of the 'burbs and back into the city, but finances won't allow it right now (city property taxes are several times what mine are now, and in fact were just hiked even more this week).
Not sure if this was by choice, but some of my coworkers live like 70km away. Maybe the houses are cheaper? Tying this back to the article, using the European yardstick doesn't necessarily work on US/Canada or elsewhere. They have made it easier to be closer, things are more spread out here. We can try and change bits of it, but tackling the sprawl would do more to address cycling. |
Originally Posted by RidingMatthew
(Post 15707594)
I think I would rather have a helmet on than not. a little protection doesn't seem like such a bad idea. I am not sure why people are SOO against them.
I thought this was well written and wanted to add my thoughts to it as well. Though I suspect that people have loud complains about cycling not because there's more of them, but as a group, we are less consistent. e.g. we can expect most drivers to stop at lights, we can expect that most drivers will stop at at stop sign, from a small road to a major road, and be mindful of californian stops if it's a 4-way stop in the middle of the suburbs. But different cyclists do different things. Some stay on the sidewalk, some stick by the rules strictly, some bend it a bit (guilty as charge, at stop signs with clear visibility, I will slow and roll through if I know there's plenty of space), and some are just outright reckless. Tackling that problem would be interesting, yet tough. |
Who is more mature?
A) Person in tight jeans/short skirt with flip flops/high heels pedaling a 40 lb batavus into a rainy headwind. B) Person in water proof pants/lycra shorts with cycling shoes pedaling 25 lb crosscheck into a rainy headwind. |
Originally Posted by RubeRad
(Post 15707221)
OK, I guess you had a slower car route, which gives bike an edge, and since my route was longish and almost all freeway, that skews against bike. But I get it. Now I have a 5.6mi commute. Car or bike would be exactly the same route (suburban arterial streets), car would be 10-15 min (I actually haven't driven it enough to really know!), and today I set a new personal best of 25:24. (That's mostly uphill, but not super-steep. I should look up how many feet I gain on my way to work).
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 15707692)
This was interesting though - As shown in Table 2, the majority of pedalcyclist fatalities in 2011 occurred in urban areas (69%) and at non-intersections (59%). Also interesting -More than one-fourth (28%) of the pedalcyclists killed in 2011 had a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .01 grams per deciliter (g/dL) or higher, and around one- fourth (23%) had a BAC of .08 g/dL or higher Minnesota only had 5 fatalities? Whereas both California and Florida had over 100 (the worst states for that statistic). Though that's probably also a reflection of the fact that with the temps it's easier to bike year round there... |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 15708327)
Minnesota only had 5 fatalities? Whereas both California and Florida had over 100 (the worst states for that statistic). Though that's probably also a reflection of the fact that with the temps it's easier to bike year round there...
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15708015)
Who is more mature?
A) Person in tight jeans/short skirt with flip flops/high heels pedaling a 40 lb batavus into a rainy headwind. B) Person in water proof pants/lycra shorts with cycling shoes pedaling 25 lb crosscheck into a rainy headwind. Though it would be funny to see a) |
Originally Posted by calyth
(Post 15707845)
using the European yardstick doesn't necessarily work on US/Canada or elsewhere. They have made it easier to be closer, things are more spread out here. We can try and change bits of it, but tackling the sprawl would do more to address cycling.
Here in the US, without that land constraint, we have spread out. Urban planners have prioritized suburbia and designed everything around a car-centric lifestyle. And that's only recently, before there were urban planners, when the economy was shifting from agriculture to industry, too many clung on to the fanatasy of living in the country, and thus chose to live farther from city centers, in tract housing with yards, not fully understanding the deal with the devil they were making by embracing a lifestyle that requires a car. Now we're stuck with their legacy, and road infrastructure that is anti-bike. |
Originally Posted by RubeRad
(Post 15708578)
Who's "They"? In Europe there's less land, so higher population density is a necessity, cars are less necessary, and bikes and other options are more viable.
Here in the US, without that land constraint, we have spread out. Urban planners have prioritized suburbia and designed everything around a car-centric lifestyle. And that's only recently, before there were urban planners, when the economy was shifting from agriculture to industry, too many clung on to the fanatasy of living in the country, and thus chose to live farther from city centers, in tract housing with yards, not fully understanding the deal with the devil they were making by embracing a lifestyle that requires a car. Now we're stuck with their legacy, and road infrastructure that is anti-bike. Europe in the whole is small compared to the USA so logistics come into play here. It seems like every 50 miles you have to show your passport, where in USA the land is vast and If you commute in a large city many factors come into play. Culture is a huge factor also, that is why soccer and cycling is huge in Europe and not so much here. Perhaps that is why Europe esp. France is mad at a certain American for winning 7 something or another. (disclaimer don't want to turn this into a whats his name thingy or a helmet debacle...lol) Good stuff really as a I for one love a healthy debate and find humor in the flames... I would really like what the author has to say, and he is a member........hmmmm |
So, for crying out loud, quit preaching helmets. They aren’t necessary and you won’t die riding without one. Anyone who has thoroughlyexamined the literature will reach the conclusion that helmets can do little toprotect you against serious injury. What?!?! This guys a doctor? . . . Oh, a chiropractor. nevermind. I have hit my head twice while riding a bike. Did the helmet prevent serious concussion? I don’t know. Maybe I should stop wearing it and the next time I fall I’ll find out. Start riding like adults. . I do Save the spandex for when you need it. . . . There is nobody on the planet Earth who has not looked at a pair of Lycra shorts and said to themselves “There’s no way in hell I’m gonna look good in that I need it to be comfortable when riding a bike. I do not give a dam what others think. Maybe they would like it better if I took fashion que’s from the Kardashians. Hard to do since I don’t lead my life by what others think about what I wear, and never watch crap like that. Be nice to others. . I am, unless they write stupid, logically flawed articles. It all comes down to this. If werent cycling to grow beyond its small, homogeneous niche, all of us cyclists need to change our behavior to reflect the cycling culture that we want to bring about. In other words, if you want an environment where most of the population rides a bike — then you should ride your bike as you would in that environment.. Slowly, in uncomfortable clothing while risking the most precious attribute I have; my brain? No thank you. |
RubeRad: that should've been a "That". The lack of sprawl makes normal commute easier, because you can't be that far from where you work. My bad.
Originally Posted by xuwol7
(Post 15708726)
Great point, in Europe you have to be rich and it is hard to get a license, many are riding bikes out of necessity and they build their infrastructure around this.
Europe in the whole is small compared to the USA so logistics come into play here. It seems like every 50 miles you have to show your passport, where in USA the land is vast and If you commute in a large city many factors come into play. Culture is a huge factor also, that is why soccer and cycling is huge in Europe and not so much here. There are also no way to lock up bikes, etc... Cultural change is always the hardest one. We can fix availability issues, we can fix urban sprawl if we wanted to. Getting people to believe in the new norm is the tough part. |
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