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700x23 versus 700x28

Old 09-27-13, 09:22 AM
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dramiscram
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700x23 versus 700x28

Last week end I had to replace my rear tire, a Schwalbe Durano 700x23 that (only) lasted 3500 kms (2175 mi.) I decided to try bigger tires. The biggest tires I could fit on the bike are 700x28.

It's been a week or 220 kms (137 mi.) so far and I really feel slower, I feel like I need to put more effort to keep the same pace and my average commuting time is definitely slower this week. Is it me? Is it the tires? I've read a few thread on this forum stating that a bigger tire shouldn't make you slower but I don't agree so far.

It may just be the tires, they're Schwalbe Delta Cruiser 700x28, anyone familiar with those?
Bigger is definitely more comfortable but I choose speed over comfort.

Anyone having the same impression?
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Old 09-27-13, 09:32 AM
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Oh, it's the tires for sure. Those things are super heavy. You might want to do some research and choose a better tire.

Edit: for me, 700x28 is the minimum size tire I ride. I have some Challenge Parigi-Roubaix tires that are labeled 27mm but actually are about 29mm on the wheel. These things feel super fast and they weigh literally half what your tires do.
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Old 09-27-13, 10:14 AM
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Yeah, I'd blame the tire. You doubled your tire weight and went from a tire with a performance rubber compound to one with a basic compound.

In my experience, heavier tires definitely feel slower and sometimes they are slower. The biggest factor though, I think, is that when the tire feels slower your legs tend to want to hold back to compensate. I had a thread a while ago about timing myself at all out effort on a tire that I was convinced was significantly slower than the tires I had been using. I ended up recording my fastest time from home to work ever with any tire. Those tires (700x35 Marathon Supremes) still feel slower to me.

By the way, the "fast" tire that I was comparing against was a 700x28 Conti GP 4 Seasons. I highly recommend it.
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Old 09-27-13, 10:16 AM
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What kind of pressure can go in them beasts? LOL...Gotta be the tire... i went from 23 to 25 and i kept the same pressure and it rides way better...
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Old 09-27-13, 10:26 AM
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Tire weight isn't that important (unless you race where every second counts). Tire composition and pressure can be hugely important. As been said above, going from a performance tire to non-performance may produce less flats, but will definitely be noticeable as far as speed.
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Old 09-27-13, 10:34 AM
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Thanks guys, I'll put those on the wife's bike (she won't notice a thing) and get me another set of tires.

I commute on a triathlon bike so in the size 700x25 or 700x28 what can you reccomend that will be longlasting but still fast ( I don't care about puncture resistance, really)
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Old 09-27-13, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dramiscram View Post
Thanks guys, I'll put those on the wife's bike (she won't notice a thing) and get me another set of tires.

I commute on a triathlon bike so in the size 700x25 or 700x28 what can you reccomend that will be longlasting but still fast ( I don't care about puncture resistance, really)
700x25 conti gp4000s or 700x28 conti grand prix 4 season
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Old 09-27-13, 10:45 AM
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I don't think that mileage was bad for a rear. They only last about 1/3-1/2 as long as a front.

I use these in 26mm and have been VERY pleased with them. I've got about 2000 miles on them and wouldn't be surprised to get that much more with my 230 lbs. The actual max pressure listed ON the tire is 140 PSI, not the 115 listed on the website.

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/produ...t-tire-folding

I think a heavier tire slows me down.
I don't ride like a "machine", often coasting a bit to get a couple breaths and then accelerating again. The lighter tire accelerates easier.
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Old 09-27-13, 11:00 AM
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Believe it or not, lowering your pressure might help. Inflating a tire above its ideal pressure can do this. There's a good chance you continued your habit of using whatever pressure you were using on the 23mm tire.

Use the chart in this article for reference. Bear in mind that the weights they give are for weight on one wheel, not the entire bike.

I suggest you try some GOOD 28mm tires. You may never go back to narrower.
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Old 09-27-13, 11:56 AM
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I find the very affordable Panaracer Paselas to be very nice feeling tires. The Tourguard (flat resistant) models are actually lighter than the normal ones if you get the version with a kevlar bead.
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Old 09-27-13, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cplager View Post
Tire weight isn't that important (unless you race where every second counts).
I've got to take issue with this. From a strict measurement perspective you're certainly correct. Tire weight makes a minuscule difference in time. However, I'm convinced that you feel the weight, even with similar tire composition. I realize that it's nearly impossible to compare apples to apples here, but when you're talking about doubling the weight I don't think composition and pressure alone explain the difference in feel.
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Old 09-27-13, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
In my experience, heavier tires definitely feel slower and sometimes they are slower. The biggest factor though, I think, is that when the tire feels slower your legs tend to want to hold back to compensate. I had a thread a while ago about timing myself at all out effort on a tire that I was convinced was significantly slower than the tires I had been using. I ended up recording my fastest time from home to work ever with any tire. Those tires (700x35 Marathon Supremes) still feel slower to me.
That psychological factor isn't to be discounted. The Panaracer Col de Vie's on my "rando" bike aren't heavy, have nice supple sidewalls, and I've shaved much of the tread off of them. I've checked and re-checked the brakes and hub adjustment. But the bike still feels slower and a little harder to propel than my other road bikes, even though it really shouldn't be.

I've chalked it up to the increased cushion masking the road buzz making the bike seem slower, and the higher position interfering with my aerodynamics. When I repeat the same routes on my roadier bikes, I'm still working hard to go fast, so I think there's more psychology at play than most would realize.
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Old 09-27-13, 12:24 PM
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You could be slower due to the heavier weight of the larger tires and also the rolling resistance. Heavier tires make a big difference on hills or when accelerating. Rolling resistance affects you all of the time. (Sort of like comparing the affects of elevation gain vs wind.) Conti GP 4 Seasons roll pretty nice and are reasonably light weight for 28s. Other comparable 28s include Clement Strada and Vittorio Rubino Pro and Rivendell Rolly Poly.
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Old 09-27-13, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I've got to take issue with this. From a strict measurement perspective you're certainly correct. Tire weight makes a minuscule difference in time. However, I'm convinced that you feel the weight, even with similar tire composition. I realize that it's nearly impossible to compare apples to apples here, but when you're talking about doubling the weight I don't think composition and pressure alone explain the difference in feel.
The only thing you might feel is the additional angular momentum. If you are spinning the tire in your arms, you'd definitely feel it. Attached to a bike, I'm not so sure (I'm not prepared to say that you don't, but I think it's more likely than not that you wouldn't be able to tell).

As far as acceleration and top speed go, it's really a non-issue to pretty much everybody except somebody racing (and even the pros are going wider now).
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Old 09-27-13, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Believe it or not, lowering your pressure might help. Inflating a tire above its ideal pressure can do this. There's a good chance you continued your habit of using whatever pressure you were using on the 23mm tire.

Use the chart in this article for reference. Bear in mind that the weights they give are for weight on one wheel, not the entire bike.

I suggest you try some GOOD 28mm tires. You may never go back to narrower.
cool article, ive been running 100 in the from and 110 in the rear. the front has no drop, while the rear has a bit. gonna try lower psi in the front and see how it goes. i always thought the standard was to just run 10 percent higher in the rear.
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Old 09-27-13, 12:37 PM
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Heh, I have been riding a road bike all year with 23s. Two days ago I took delivery of my new winter bike and it came with Big Apple 700x50s! I rode it to work yesterday, and while I did appreciate the feel of the ride - it felt like I was riding around on a mattress - I did not appreciate the fact that my legs were absolutely burning trying to keep up a decent speed (and failing).
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Old 09-27-13, 12:42 PM
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My touring and cyclocross bikes have fast-rolling 32 mm tires (Vittoria Rando Hypers and Rivendell Jack Browns). I can maintain a decent average speed on both bikes, but it takes more work, and you really notice it on the hills. My other road bikes have 23s, 25s and 28s. I don't notice any difference in speed/hill climbing between the 23s and 25s, but the 28s seem a little more sluggish. All of my tires are relatively lightweight folders.
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Old 09-27-13, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tarwheel View Post
Other comparable 28s include Clement Strada and Vittorio Rubino Pro and Rivendell Rolly Poly.
I have Vittoria Rubino Pro on my road bike and I really like them. Apparently, they are quite durable and puncture resistant. However, they don't come in 28, only 23 and 25. However, the Vittoria Rubino (not Pro) do come in 28 (345gr) as well as the Rubino Pro Tech (280gr), the Zaffiro Pro (290gr) and the Zaffiro (400gr).
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Old 09-27-13, 12:51 PM
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I've got some Rubinos in size 28. Not sure if they are the Tech or Pro version, but they have folding beads and weigh less than 300 g. I haven't installed the Rubino 28s yet but have been running the 25s on other bikes for a while and really like the way they roll. They have been long-wearing and flat resistant as well.
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Old 09-27-13, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dramiscram View Post
Thanks guys, I'll put those on the wife's bike (she won't notice a thing) and get me another set of tires.

I commute on a triathlon bike so in the size 700x25 or 700x28 what can you reccomend that will be longlasting but still fast ( I don't care about puncture resistance, really)
Wait.. you commute on a triathlon style bike? Is it one of the ultra aggressive bikes? If so, maybe it isn't the tires you should be changing for comfort.
You also mentioned that you prefer speed over comfort and you do not care about puncture resistance... Hmmmm...

So, you want a long lasting tire that is fast.

Last edited by ben4345; 09-27-13 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 09-27-13, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Believe it or not, lowering your pressure might help. Inflating a tire above its ideal pressure can do this. There's a good chance you continued your habit of using whatever pressure you were using on the 23mm tire.

Use the chart in this article for reference. Bear in mind that the weights they give are for weight on one wheel, not the entire bike.
I'm a novice, but I wonder about the accuracy of the chart. I weigh 140 lbs (fully clothed). Even with a 20-pound luggage, I only give approximately 80 lbs to each wheel. I have 700x28 tyres, which means according to the chart, my tyre should have no higher than 60 psi. Does that really make sense? The pressure numbers written on the tyre are 100-120 (min-max) psi.
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Old 09-27-13, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by daihard View Post
I'm a novice, but I wonder about the accuracy of the chart. I weigh 140 lbs (fully clothed). Even with a 20-pound luggage, I only give approximately 80 lbs to each wheel. I have 700x28 tyres, which means according to the chart, my tyre should have no higher than 60 psi. Does that really make sense? The pressure numbers written on the tyre are 100-120 (min-max) psi.
IME, do not pay any attention to that chart, it is only a reference. It doesn't just depend weight of the rider/bike/luggage or on the size of tire but how it is built too; stiffer tires benefit from less pressure and supple tires will need more. Try different pressures, and decide what feels best to you and you only.
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Old 09-27-13, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
By the way, the "fast" tire that I was comparing against was a 700x28 Conti GP 4 Seasons. I highly recommend it.
GP 4 Seasons have 57% more rolling resistance than GP4000s, similar flat protection, about the same wet weather performance, and don't last very long. I don't recommend them if you can be content with a 25mm tire.

https://www.conti-online.com/www/down...gp4000s_en.pdf

If shorter tire life is acceptable ride the GP4000s if it comes in your size (25mm tops).

If not the Gatorskins are an OK rolling and riding tire compared to others with flat protection and long life which is over twice the miles of GP4 Seasons provided you don't damage the sidewalls before wearing them to the cords.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 09-27-13 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 09-27-13, 07:43 PM
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FYI, I saw somewhere that the new gp4000 II coming out will be offered in 700x28
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Old 09-27-13, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dramiscram View Post
I've read a few thread on this forum stating that a bigger tire shouldn't make you slower but I don't agree so far.
Otherwise identical tires have lower rolling resistance in bigger sizes at the same tire pressure, although the fastest tires are sold to a road bike market that generally doesn't want anything bigger than a 23 or 25 so you can't get wide tires with the fastest construction.

The slowest road tires have twice the rolling resistance of the fastest so when moving to a wider tire means a slower construction the results can be significant.
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