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Tire size tradeoffs

Old 11-01-13, 09:23 AM
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My wife has a new 29er with the stock knobby tires. Because she will ride 95% on paved roads and smooth dirt roads at camp, I plan on switching the tires to smoother and narrower tires: I'm considering 700x50 Big Apple Plus, her current tires are 700x54 so she shouldn't feel that the tire is harder but she will notice the smoother ride. She's a fairly new rider so she'll want tread and I think the tread of the Big Apple Plus will be sufficient to satisfy her wishes.
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Old 11-01-13, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ridefreemc View Post
It may take a while for you to get used to wider tires, but i would suggest not limiting yourself to the sizes you cited. I went from 23mm to 40mm (Trek Madone to Salsa Vaya) and really like the ride waaaay better. Now last night I switched out to 35mm and will likely stay there. Schwalbe Marathon Supremes - not flats in 2 years on the 40mm tires and they still look newish (maybe 2000 miles). I got the 35mm editions on Ebay for $58 (they are usually $75).

Go wider young man!
I wonder how much of the change in ride on the switch to the Vaya was going to a Steel bike vs just the wider tires. I tested a Vaya and have been looking at it and similar bikes, though I would definitely swap out the stock tires with something slick.

Either way I am feeling more comfortable trying wider tires now.
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Old 11-01-13, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
The benefits of narrower tires, supposedly being faster, are greatly exaggerated. All things being equal, wider tires actually can have lower rolling resistance. But all things are never equal, so the drawback of wider tires is mainly added weight.

As long as you can find decently light tires with smooth tread, buy the widest tires that give you the fender clearance you also want.
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The benefits of skinny high psi tyres are greatly over rated.
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Old 11-01-13, 12:15 PM
  #29  
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My narrowest tires are 32mm. My all-rounder bike has 38mm tires. They're still fairly light and supple - giving a nice ride, but not slowing me down.

I like fat tires and I cannot lie....
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Old 11-01-13, 12:41 PM
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You have to consider the braking system that will fit your required tyre diameter.
Std calliper brakes max out at a narrow 28mm (no fenders) IF the frame is set for max clearance. Normally they work with 25mm+fender.
Long drop callipers (57mm) max out at 32mm+fenders in a suitable frame. Many frames are setup fro 28mm+fenders.
Cantilevers offer more clearance but in my experience are clunkier to setup and use. They don't offer more power.
Disc brakes are the new kids on the block offering similar clearance to cantilevers in roadbike form. I like them for all-weather riding but take care with rack and fender integration.

I suggest either long drop calipers or disc brakes.
I used to commute on 28mm and occasionally switched to 32mm I prefer 28 on the road and 32 on tracks and trails but both work. 32mm used to be the std touring tyre and is the widest that fits my tourer. I have carried full 4-pannier camping load over tracks and trails, mountains and beaches.
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Old 11-01-13, 12:47 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by MichaelW View Post
You have to consider the braking system that will fit your required tyre diameter.
Std calliper brakes max out at a narrow 28mm (no fenders) IF the frame is set for max clearance. Normally they work with 25mm+fender.
Long drop callipers (57mm) max out at 32mm+fenders in a suitable frame. Many frames are setup fro 28mm+fenders.
Cantilevers offer more clearance but in my experience are clunkier to setup and use. They don't offer more power.
Disc brakes are the new kids on the block offering similar clearance to cantilevers in roadbike form. I like them for all-weather riding but take care with rack and fender integration.

I suggest either long drop calipers or disc brakes.
I used to commute on 28mm and occasionally switched to 32mm I prefer 28 on the road and 32 on tracks and trails but both work. 32mm used to be the std touring tyre and is the widest that fits my tourer. I have carried full 4-pannier camping load over tracks and trails, mountains and beaches.
Yea. Brakes is what stopped me from really going wider on my road bike. I have been predominately looking at bikes with disk brakes that are set up for wider tires plus fenders etc. It does seem like the disc brakes limit you rack options, but there seem to be enough disc compatible racks now that I don't think this will be problem.
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Old 11-01-13, 02:49 PM
  #32  
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The biggest difference in going from a 28 to 32 is that very few really fast tires are available in sizes wider than 28. There are a few that are good but not great (in terms of ride feel and rolling resistance) available in wide sizes. The trade-offs, of course, are comfort and puncture protection. IMO, the best of the wider tires are worth the slight dip in performance and road feel.

I've used 700x28 GP 4 Seasons for a while and I love the ride feel and grip. I don't know about the objective difference in puncture protection between the 4 Seasons and the Gatorskins, but it seems to me that the marketing materials indicate (though not explicitly) that Vectran is better than the PolyX breaker in the Gatorskins. The GP 4 Seasons have a higher thread count (hence the better feel and shorter life) which makes the outer layer somewhat more susceptible to punctures, but the Vectran layer will stop most intruders (objects with a very fine point being their weakness). I've had better luck with the GP 4 Seasons than I did with the Gatorskins, but it's been within the range that could be due to random variation. Both have served me well.

Last year I got 700x35 Schwalbe Marathon Supremes for my rain commuter. These have great wet grip and are supposed to be fairly durable and puncture resistant. They felt a good bit slower to me than the GP 4 Seasons, so one day I went out to see how fast I could ride to work on these tires, figuring I could compare it to my fastest times with the 4 Seasons and see just how much slower they were. I ended up setting a new personal best time for my commute with the Marathon Supremes. I still think they feel slower, but it seems to objectively not be true (though recall my comments in the other thread about fatigue and motivation).

I've got just about 1400 miles on the Marathon Supremes right now. I've had one puncture, which was from a wood screw that would have penetrated a car tire. I haven't noticed any significant visible tread wear. The wider tires are really nice in fallwinterspring (just one season here, 9 months of rain) when the bike lanes are covered with random debris. I plan to use the GP 4 Seasons (which are currently hanging in my garage) in the summer, but when the current set wears out I'll probably replace them with GP4000S's (which I have on my road bike and love). If the Marathon Supremes give me another 1600 miles similar to the 1400 I've had so far I'll probably stick with them as my rainy season tire.
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Old 11-01-13, 03:45 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
The biggest difference in going from a 28 to 32 is that very few really fast tires are available in sizes wider than 28. There are a few that are good but not great (in terms of ride feel and rolling resistance) available in wide sizes. The trade-offs, of course, are comfort and puncture protection. IMO, the best of the wider tires are worth the slight dip in performance and road feel.

I've used 700x28 GP 4 Seasons for a while and I love the ride feel and grip. I don't know about the objective difference in puncture protection between the 4 Seasons and the Gatorskins, but it seems to me that the marketing materials indicate (though not explicitly) that Vectran is better than the PolyX breaker in the Gatorskins. The GP 4 Seasons have a higher thread count (hence the better feel and shorter life) which makes the outer layer somewhat more susceptible to punctures, but the Vectran layer will stop most intruders (objects with a very fine point being their weakness). I've had better luck with the GP 4 Seasons than I did with the Gatorskins, but it's been within the range that could be due to random variation. Both have served me well.

Last year I got 700x35 Schwalbe Marathon Supremes for my rain commuter. These have great wet grip and are supposed to be fairly durable and puncture resistant. They felt a good bit slower to me than the GP 4 Seasons, so one day I went out to see how fast I could ride to work on these tires, figuring I could compare it to my fastest times with the 4 Seasons and see just how much slower they were. I ended up setting a new personal best time for my commute with the Marathon Supremes. I still think they feel slower, but it seems to objectively not be true (though recall my comments in the other thread about fatigue and motivation).

I've got just about 1400 miles on the Marathon Supremes right now. I've had one puncture, which was from a wood screw that would have penetrated a car tire. I haven't noticed any significant visible tread wear. The wider tires are really nice in fallwinterspring (just one season here, 9 months of rain) when the bike lanes are covered with random debris. I plan to use the GP 4 Seasons (which are currently hanging in my garage) in the summer, but when the current set wears out I'll probably replace them with GP4000S's (which I have on my road bike and love). If the Marathon Supremes give me another 1600 miles similar to the 1400 I've had so far I'll probably stick with them as my rainy season tire.
Thanks for the detailed info. So you really like the Marathon Supremes better in the wet then GP 4 Seasons? I am now debating getting two sets of tires, one for the rainy season and one for the dry season. Was thinking GP 4 Seasons would be my wet, but wonder if I should consider the Marathons for wet. Was thinking the gatorskins for dry season, but maybe I should consider the 4000s...do they have decent flat protection?

Unfortunately my route seems to always be full of debris, particularly the urban part that almost alway has broken glass and such I am trying to avoid.
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Old 11-01-13, 06:13 PM
  #34  
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I've gotten air under my rear wheel twice panic braking downhill in the rain,without crashing. Both times on the bike with 2" Marathon Supremes. I've also picked many bits of FOD out of the rear tire with zero flats.
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Old 11-01-13, 06:48 PM
  #35  
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Well, the fact is that wider tires are slightly faster than narrow tires, if inflated to the same pressure. So, if you are concerned about how fast your tires are, just get yourself fairly smooth 32mm tires that can support 100psi and consider this the perfect combination of both worlds.
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Old 11-01-13, 07:25 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by mstraus View Post
I wonder how much of the change in ride on the switch to the Vaya was going to a Steel bike vs just the wider tires. I tested a Vaya and have been looking at it and similar bikes, though I would definitely swap out the stock tires with something slick.

Either way I am feeling more comfortable trying wider tires now.
I'm sure it all adds up. The Trek rode very nice, but I surely couldn't offroad with on 23s. I just feel like I could go all day on the Vaya, but maybe not the Trek? it I just thought that I wouldn't like that wide a tire for road riding, but I was wrong and pleasantly surprised by the result.
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Old 11-01-13, 08:06 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by mstraus View Post
Thanks for the detailed info. So you really like the Marathon Supremes better in the wet then GP 4 Seasons?
Both of them are really good in wet conditions. The Marathons Supremes are a good bit wider so that gives them more grab after bumping over a tree branch or something.


Originally Posted by mstraus View Post
I am now debating getting two sets of tires, one for the rainy season and one for the dry season. Was thinking GP 4 Seasons would be my wet, but wonder if I should consider the Marathons for wet. Was thinking the gatorskins for dry season, but maybe I should consider the 4000s...do they have decent flat protection?

Unfortunately my route seems to always be full of debris, particularly the urban part that almost alway has broken glass and such I am trying to avoid.
The only flat I've had with the 4000S's was from sabotage on the STP route (tacks in the road), but I generally only use them on good roads in dry conditions.
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Old 11-02-13, 06:36 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mstraus View Post
Thanks for the detailed info. So you really like the Marathon Supremes better in the wet then GP 4 Seasons? I am now debating getting two sets of tires, one for the rainy season and one for the dry season. Was thinking GP 4 Seasons would be my wet, but wonder if I should consider the Marathons for wet. Was thinking the gatorskins for dry season, but maybe I should consider the 4000s...do they have decent flat protection?

Unfortunately my route seems to always be full of debris, particularly the urban part that almost alway has broken glass and such I am trying to avoid.
Be careful now. You're begining to get into apples and oranges of tires.

There is no comparison between Conti 4-Seasons and Schwalbe Marathon Plus. They are designed with completely different buyers in mind.

Every tire is a compromise. The 4-Seasons prioritize in the direction of weight, giving up something on the puncture resistance and tread life sides. The Marathon Plus prioritizes in exactly the opposite direction.

As a result, a 28mm 4-Seasons weighs 260 grams, will likely last 2500 to 3500 miles in the rear (based on my experience) and will occassionaly get punctured. (Typically once per tire in its lifetime, in primarily urban commuting, based on my experience.)

The Marathon Plus in 28mm weighs 740 grams, and based on reports here, will likely last 7500 miles in the rear and will never flat.

Both tires get good ratings from their intended buyers, and both tires get poor ratings from those who prefer the other one.

Which is the "better" tire depends on how you prioritize weight, puncture resistance, tread life, and grip.

Last edited by tsl; 11-02-13 at 06:49 AM. Reason: fact checking
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Old 11-02-13, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tsl View Post
There is no comparison between Conti 4-Seasons and Schwalbe Marathon Plus.
There's also no comparison between the Marathon Plus and the Marathon Supreme. They're very different tires.

What tsl said still applies, but to a lesser extent. A 700x28 Marathon Supreme weighs 310 grams. Even so, the Marathon Supreme is a touring tire while the GP 4 Seasons is more of a road tire.
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Old 11-02-13, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
There's also no comparison between the Marathon Plus and the Marathon Supreme. They're very different tires.

What tsl said still applies, but to a lesser extent. A 700x28 Marathon Supreme weighs 310 grams. Even so, the Marathon Supreme is a touring tire while the GP 4 Seasons is more of a road tire.
+1

Supremes are way different than the Plus. Also, they don't seem to give anything up (i.e., compromise). They are folding, light weight, wear well, and very flat resistant.
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Old 11-02-13, 09:28 PM
  #41  
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I use 35mm Vittoria Voyager Hyper at 50-60psi on my townie/errand running drop bar bike. I run 25mm GP4000s tires on my carbon fiber road bike at 80-90psi. The Voyagers really impress me, they feel like they roll every bit as well as the narrower GP4000s. The ride is so good on the wider Hypers @ lower pressures that it makes me want to go with a 25/28 GP4000S II setup (when it's released) on 23mm wide rims @ 70psi on my Specialized Roubaix.
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Old 11-02-13, 11:10 PM
  #42  
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I tried 700x23 for a week and couldn't take it, especially on brick roads. I like 28-32x700 seems like a good compromise to me.
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Old 11-04-13, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tsl View Post
Be careful now. You're begining to get into apples and oranges of tires.

There is no comparison between Conti 4-Seasons and Schwalbe Marathon Plus. They are designed with completely different buyers in mind.

Every tire is a compromise. The 4-Seasons prioritize in the direction of weight, giving up something on the puncture resistance and tread life sides. The Marathon Plus prioritizes in exactly the opposite direction.

As a result, a 28mm 4-Seasons weighs 260 grams, will likely last 2500 to 3500 miles in the rear (based on my experience) and will occassionaly get punctured. (Typically once per tire in its lifetime, in primarily urban commuting, based on my experience.)

The Marathon Plus in 28mm weighs 740 grams, and based on reports here, will likely last 7500 miles in the rear and will never flat.

Both tires get good ratings from their intended buyers, and both tires get poor ratings from those who prefer the other one.

Which is the "better" tire depends on how you prioritize weight, puncture resistance, tread life, and grip.
I guess its easy to get into a apples to oranges comparison, or at least a comparison of very different apples if I start comparing different brands and models of tires.

One thing is for sure, what I have learned from this thread has convinced me to get a wider tire, likely 28 or 32s depending on the tire I pick. It has also told me a bit more about setting my pressure. It has also gotten me to think about getting different tires for the rainy vs dry season (aka winter vs summer). Thanks to all who provided great info.

That brings me to my next challenge, choosing the tire. I was going to originally get whatever my LBS recommended, but now I realize I need to do a bit more thinking about my needs to select the right tire (or tires). I also need to decide if I want to buy local or order online, as that could change my options. Now to research tires, and to keep this thread on topic maybe start a new thread for advice on what tire (sure to get into a heated discussion!).
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Old 11-04-13, 02:16 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
It is like we are brothers with different mothers.



The benefits of skinny high psi tyres are greatly over rated.
+1!

IMO, the sweet spot for me seems to be 32mm. I usually ride Panaracer Paselas for everyday riding. I avoid anything narrower than 28mm, and I didn't start to notice the weight difference until I got up to 35mm. YMMV. These were all Paselas, so tread, sidewall, etc was all the same. I couldn't recommend a better tire for everyday riding, and they're not very expensive either.

(note that the Pasela Tourguard with kevlar bead is actually lighter than the standard Pasela with wire bead--but make sure you get the kevlar bead!)
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Old 11-04-13, 07:12 PM
  #45  
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If you haven't tried the Marathon Supremes, you don't know what you are missing. The comfort and grip are excellent without sacrificing speed. Puncture protection is also great. Weight is decent. I've tried many tires over the years, and they hit the sweet spot. Pricey, but worth the cost.
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