Chainless bikes the new future?
#27
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,457
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3130 Post(s)
Liked 2,111 Times
in
1,374 Posts
BMW advertised its shaft drives as maintenance-free on the early 1200 bikes, but after a few failures well publicized by the Internet, added oil changes every IIRC 12,000 miles. It shouldn't ever go out. That's for bikes ranging from >100 to <200 hp. Dynamic shaft drive gets 6-8000 miles lifetime when ridden by a normal human, making 1/4 hp? That's a serious engineering failure.
Harley carbon fiber belt drives used to be 60,000 miles, are now "inspect only" until they get too threadbare. That's with around 100hp. The Gates web site says, "In laboratory testing, the Carbon Drive System lasts more than twice the life of chain" but does not list an actual number.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,139
Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
I have two new tires, new chain, brake pads, and bar tape ready to mount on my regular ride before the weather warms. Pretty much my springtime routine. I some ways... that does seem like a lot of parts and work.... for a couple thousand miles or so of cycling. And on the other hand.... it doesn't cost a lot and with very little time and effort the bicycle will be like new.
I love my modern alloy Fiji. But a part of me........ thinks modern materials and designs mixed with a little innovated engineering could produce a near maintenance free 10 or 12 pound bicycle that wouldn't cost a years [or even a months] wage. Yet that other part of me.... finds real comfort and beauty in an old skinny steel tubed 10 speed with down tube friction shifters.
I guess I really want it all.
#29
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1672 Post(s)
Liked 1,832 Times
in
1,064 Posts
But a part of me........ thinks modern materials and designs mixed with a little innovated engineering could produce a near maintenance free 10 or 12 pound bicycle that wouldn't cost a years [or even a months] wage.
#30
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1672 Post(s)
Liked 1,832 Times
in
1,064 Posts
Okay, you're the Dynamic product manager, meeting with your engineering team. Increased weight, increased drag (friction), increased cost: what are you willing to trade off for more service life?
#31
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,457
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3130 Post(s)
Liked 2,111 Times
in
1,374 Posts
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,139
Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
Welcome to the difference of having an energy slave........... Wanna ride that bike? I don't. The world awaits your innovations
It might be a tad difficult to sell ultralight bicycles.... until the powers-that-be lift the minimum weight limits on racing bicycles... that have (IMHO) stalled cycling progress. The rules once protected racers.... mostly from themselves. But now just protects the status quo of a handful of global brand names. Instead of real progress.... we all need to be satisfied with electric shifters moving a chain on yet one more back wheel cog.
I am NOT complaining! I love the current state of the modern bicycle. But they aren't that far from the robust improvement of the safety bicycle.... that we saw and rode fifty years ago. The first half century of two wheel innovation.... went much better than the last.... IMHO.
Last edited by Dave Cutter; 01-22-14 at 10:19 AM.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 150
Bikes: 2013 KHS 747 (by Lennard Zinn), 1987 Nishiki Sport, 1983 Sanwa 700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
1 Post
I agree there is not much innovation in bicycle design. That is in large part because the buyers are conservative and generally wont buy something that is altogether different, like a shaft drive. The only way they will, is if it wins races. (Even though racing bikes are ridiculous for the average person. Its like we are all driving around in ferraris.)
I think, if dynamic are to mainstream the driveshaft, they need to win races. I doubt they can win the tour de france with a driveshaft, but they might have a chance in cyclocross. That is, if it is, in fact, a better technology. I think they should make a cyclocross model and start giving it to riders. It will be heavier, but the advantage of a clean drivetrain might give the dynamic riders the edge.
Or hell, MTB races would be an even better application.
I have to believe that the shaft drive is actually not so hot, and not able to compete on a professional level, which is why dynamic has not pursued this strategy.
I think, if dynamic are to mainstream the driveshaft, they need to win races. I doubt they can win the tour de france with a driveshaft, but they might have a chance in cyclocross. That is, if it is, in fact, a better technology. I think they should make a cyclocross model and start giving it to riders. It will be heavier, but the advantage of a clean drivetrain might give the dynamic riders the edge.
Or hell, MTB races would be an even better application.
I have to believe that the shaft drive is actually not so hot, and not able to compete on a professional level, which is why dynamic has not pursued this strategy.
#34
Senior Member
Alex Meade is a framebuilder in Lexington, KY. Here are a few pictures from his website of a custom built shaft drive commuter.
https://www.alexmeade.com/
https://www.alexmeade.com/
#35
Rhapsodic Laviathan
personally, I see the belt and shaft system being aa novelty item on bikes such as custom built lowriders, ratrods and the like. Although, I have wanted to do both on a beach cruiser. the shaft could be good on an offroad bike if it was strong enough. the other setback is at least from my pov is hub gears are weak and expensive compared to derailures and chains. Otherwise I wouldnt mind a cross bike of mtb with a shaft drive and geared hub.
a guy at a lbs I go to told me of a company who made a cx or mtb that had a geared hub and another on converted to be used as a crank- which sounds good on paper. It was a flop. hell, I wouldnt mind building an aawesome trike that was shaft driven
a guy at a lbs I go to told me of a company who made a cx or mtb that had a geared hub and another on converted to be used as a crank- which sounds good on paper. It was a flop. hell, I wouldnt mind building an aawesome trike that was shaft driven
#36
Rhapsodic Laviathan
with a geared hub. Damn phone.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,708
Bikes: Trek 730 (quad), 720 & 830, Bike Friday NWT, Brompton M36R & M6R, Dahon HAT060 & HT060, ...
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 840 Post(s)
Liked 337 Times
in
252 Posts
Alex Meade is a framebuilder in Lexington, KY. Here are a few pictures from his website of a custom built shaft drive commuter.
https://www.alexmeade.com/
https://www.alexmeade.com/
#38
Senior Member
If you look at the left dropout detail shot, there appears to be a threaded hole for attachments and what he calls a "fender stub" in front of the rear tire.
#39
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,509
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7354 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,443 Posts
Bicycles are one of the few remaining industries with garage inventors. Unfortunately, many inventors don't learn from the mistakes of the past. We see ideas returning and failing repeatedly.
The belt drive is interesting. I don't think you have to clean it, and it doesn't tend to get dirty anyway. I would carry a spare, though, and that's not so bad, as they're not so heavy.
The belt drive is interesting. I don't think you have to clean it, and it doesn't tend to get dirty anyway. I would carry a spare, though, and that's not so bad, as they're not so heavy.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#40
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1672 Post(s)
Liked 1,832 Times
in
1,064 Posts
Interesting that shaft drive has made bigger inroads in the bike share world than belt drive.
#41
Banned
OK what is the crank to direct 1:1 gear in the hub ratio range choice in the bike,?
Given, you cannot change It, so it better be just right..
Given, you cannot change It, so it better be just right..
#42
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 24
Bikes: 1945 ScwhinnDX, 1950s Lazzeretti 1969 Kessel Eddy Merckx 1970 Atala road 1971 Batavus Mixte 1972 Torpado 1991 Bianchi Meta mtb 2005Feltsr71 2013Dynamic tempo
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I like my chainless Dynamic bicycle and have not had any problems. I check my nut weekly and grease the gears when needed. no big deal.
#43
♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
Posts: 7,902
Bikes: Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Alex Meade is a framebuilder in Lexington, KY. Here are a few pictures from his website of a custom built shaft drive commuter.
https://www.alexmeade.c
https://www.alexmeade.c
I like the bike in the picture, but that looks just like the shaft on my old Dynamic 3sp. The Dynamic had a design flaw that, to me, makes some of them useless. It looks like they changed the new ones, though. I would love to find a bike that is belt or shaft but also has all the other stuff I am looking for.
#44
Senior Member
Does he have a shop, I mean work out of a bike store or something where the public can come and ogle?
I like the bike in the picture, but that looks just like the shaft on my old Dynamic 3sp. The Dynamic had a design flaw that, to me, makes some of them useless. It looks like they changed the new ones, though. I would love to find a bike that is belt or shaft but also has all the other stuff I am looking for.
I like the bike in the picture, but that looks just like the shaft on my old Dynamic 3sp. The Dynamic had a design flaw that, to me, makes some of them useless. It looks like they changed the new ones, though. I would love to find a bike that is belt or shaft but also has all the other stuff I am looking for.
Honestly, I don't have any experience with shaft bikes but when I saw this thread I thought you guys might like the pics.
#45
New Orleans
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,794
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
The filthy chain-
yeah nice to be rid of that,
but...maintenance most bike owners don't do ANY chain maintenance -and the drivetrains last until the bike is sold/forgotten.
I have a stainless steel chain- very very rarely oil it-but only after hosing it off-simple green-and really maybe once a YEAR-(2200 miles)-when I hear squeaking.
I'm not so sure a SS chain-or any chain-last much longer lubing it-
and the lube-ALWAYS attracts abrasive grit-
which stains clothing-and grinds away at EVERYTHING.
I have maybe 5000 miles on this chain-seems to work fine
Are you sure LUBING chains so often is necessary?
yeah nice to be rid of that,
but...maintenance most bike owners don't do ANY chain maintenance -and the drivetrains last until the bike is sold/forgotten.
I have a stainless steel chain- very very rarely oil it-but only after hosing it off-simple green-and really maybe once a YEAR-(2200 miles)-when I hear squeaking.
I'm not so sure a SS chain-or any chain-last much longer lubing it-
and the lube-ALWAYS attracts abrasive grit-
which stains clothing-and grinds away at EVERYTHING.
I have maybe 5000 miles on this chain-seems to work fine
Are you sure LUBING chains so often is necessary?
#46
Uber Goober
Just looking over their website, if you stop and think about it, it is about 90% promoting internal geared hubs in lieu of derailleur systems, with the shaft drive being somewhat incidental to that. But suffice it to say, you eliminate most of the derailleur/chain issues on a bike just by going to a geared hub even if used with a chain. Single-speed chain bikes tend to require very little maintenance compared to a derailleur system.
From what I have read in the past, it seemed a lot of the issues with the Dynamic bikes were problems with the company more so that problems with the product. If you sell your product as a cool alternative to regular bikes, you can make a case for that. If you sell it as the greatest thing since sliced bread, and imply anyone would be stupid to use anything different- well, you better have a wonderful outstanding product, OR great warranty/return policies, OR you wind up with some pretty bitter people venting on the internet.
A couple of people have mentioned the belt drive. I wouldn't have any problem using one of those, the lack of a derailleur being the main drawback to them. Some friends of mine use belt drives as the timing chain on their tandem. One drawback to belt drive on a regular bike is you have to have some place where the frame breaks apart to put the belt through- you can't "break" the belt like a chain.
From what I have read in the past, it seemed a lot of the issues with the Dynamic bikes were problems with the company more so that problems with the product. If you sell your product as a cool alternative to regular bikes, you can make a case for that. If you sell it as the greatest thing since sliced bread, and imply anyone would be stupid to use anything different- well, you better have a wonderful outstanding product, OR great warranty/return policies, OR you wind up with some pretty bitter people venting on the internet.
A couple of people have mentioned the belt drive. I wouldn't have any problem using one of those, the lack of a derailleur being the main drawback to them. Some friends of mine use belt drives as the timing chain on their tandem. One drawback to belt drive on a regular bike is you have to have some place where the frame breaks apart to put the belt through- you can't "break" the belt like a chain.
__________________
"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
#47
Rhapsodic Laviathan
There's also a guy on youtube who built a hydrostatic bicycle. Not sure if he developed it anyfurther. I told him it should have at least threespeeds somehow.
#48
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1672 Post(s)
Liked 1,832 Times
in
1,064 Posts
Dynamic seems to be the only bike company building shaft drive bikes that most posters here know of. Here's a little youtube market survey from a year and a half ago of shaft drive bikes of the world - and it looks like they missed Sonoma. I'm pretty sure most if not all of these use the Sussex shaft module, and doing a google images search of 'Sussex shaft drive' I find even more production bikes fitted with their shaft.
And, as previously mentioned, then there's bike share. A few minutes surfing found: Los Angeles, Tampa, San Francisco, San Diego, Anaheim, CalState Fullerton, Texas A&M, University of Buffalo, Bordeaux, Xiamen, Marseille, Milan, Vicenza, St. Etienne, Clermont, San Paulo...
And, as previously mentioned, then there's bike share. A few minutes surfing found: Los Angeles, Tampa, San Francisco, San Diego, Anaheim, CalState Fullerton, Texas A&M, University of Buffalo, Bordeaux, Xiamen, Marseille, Milan, Vicenza, St. Etienne, Clermont, San Paulo...
Last edited by tcs; 01-29-14 at 07:18 AM.
#49
Senior Member
I used PAM vegetable pan spray on my Harley's belt. The same type of belts have been used on high horsepower motorcycles for a long time. They are proven.
I would be willing to be that there has never been a broken belt on a belt on a bicycle, ever.
I would trust a belt way more than a chain. But this is BF, someone is always going to disagree with you
I would be willing to be that there has never been a broken belt on a belt on a bicycle, ever.
I would trust a belt way more than a chain. But this is BF, someone is always going to disagree with you
Less horsepower then many bikes with 1/3rd their displacement.
#50
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,457
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3130 Post(s)
Liked 2,111 Times
in
1,374 Posts
It's also not really relevant to the discussion, which is why should belts and shafts for bicycles not last indefinitely with a 1/4hp human cranking on them?
Last edited by Darth Lefty; 01-27-14 at 09:00 AM.