I Have To Admit, I Was A Little Scared Last Night
01-31-14, 04:36 PM
#28
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The trick, if you must do it, is to crank the SC around to your strong side and raise it up a bit. Basically, use it to put the gun exactly where a good IWB holster would, then cover it with your shirt.
01-31-14, 07:30 PM
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01-31-14, 07:56 PM
#30
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It's based on either injuries and deaths per trip or per hour on the road. Comparing miles isn't quite apt because you don't replace, say, ten miles in the car with ten miles on a bike. People who cycle often for transportation tend to travel shorter distances than those who use cars primarily.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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02-05-14, 11:57 AM
#31
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It's based on either injuries and deaths per trip or per hour on the road. Comparing miles isn't quite apt because you don't replace, say, ten miles in the car with ten miles on a bike. People who cycle often for transportation tend to travel shorter distances than those who use cars primarily.
02-05-14, 12:37 PM
#32
----
Maybe the strange guy in the car caught sight of the strange guy on the bike and noticed he had a concealed weapon and that the guy with the weapon was eyeing him, acting suspiciously, glancing furtively back and forth at the local eatery and feared he might be about to rob the place or worse. Maybe the guy in the car was hanging out there because his friend worked there and he was concerned he was about to be a victim.
While the carrying of a gun may make the carrier feel safer if someone else notices you're packing you just become another nut with a gun and a potential shooter.
Just stating the obvious.
While the carrying of a gun may make the carrier feel safer if someone else notices you're packing you just become another nut with a gun and a potential shooter.
Just stating the obvious.
Last edited by buzzman; 02-05-14 at 12:41 PM.
02-05-14, 12:41 PM
#33
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People who choose to live far from work (or work far from home) can't ride a bike. If bike commuting were a priority, we wouldn't live and work in widely separated places. But people do.
I do believe there is a strong correlation with danger (injuries, deaths, property damage) and speed, though of course, it's not perfectly linear.
It's impossible to do an apples-to-apples comparison, but deaths and injuries per mile traveled are lower in countries where a greater fraction of people travel by bike. Of course, as we reduce the car/bike ratio, we could expect car/bike collisions to decrease, so bike commuting is good for the population but not necessarily for the individual.
The danger of bike commuting hinges, to a large part, on the cyclist's skill. This is a good thing. Those who fear that it's highly dangerous seem to think luck has a lot to do with it. Half of bike accidents involve the rider and no other vehicle, i.e. typically, the rider falls off his bike. Sometimes the rider collides with a fixed object. Notice that these accidents decrease as experience increases.
Half of the car/bike collisions are the cyclist's fault, and half are the driver's fault. This is also a good thing. First, you can prevent the cyclist-fault accidents by not making the common mistakes. By doing that, you reduce the probability of a car/bike collision by half! The most common cause of car/bike collisions where the cyclist is at fault is when the cyclist is going against the direction of traffic. If you actually want to get into an accident, just ride the wrong way.
Second, by anticipating the bone-headed moves that motorists commonly make. There are two that are, by far, more common than all of the others. They are the right hook and the left hook. Be extremely ready for them.
Be predictable, and predict others.
I don't have a citation handy, but I do believe that by most measures, you are safer on a bike. You say counterintuitive is an understatement. That's merely because I've refuted something that everyone already "knows," but sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong. We assume cycling is dangerous because if a car collides with a bike in such a way that the collision would cause damage to the body of a car, we assume the cyclist would be crushed and either killed or severely injured. But most car/bike collisions don't play out this way. That kind of collision is pretty rare, and as I said, the risk can be mitigated.
Often, a cyclist's (or potential cyclist's) biggest fear is being hit from behind, but that's very rare, especially in the daytime. It might be a risk that is recently increasing because drivers are often distracted by cell phones etc when they should be looking through their windshields. But a driver with any sense of conscience, even a driver who is hostile towards cyclists, won't collide from behind if he sees the cyclist in front of him. This fact is very useful, and it's why taking a lane, when necessary, works out as well as it does. I try to be careful and not cut anyone off, i.e. if I pull in front of someone behind me driving a car, my aim is not to make him brake hard. I recently messed up on that, but he still had plenty of time to brake, and I wasn't in grave danger. This fear, though, is one reason naive cyclists ride the wrong way. It's also why people slink along the curb; they're afraid of being hit. This increases danger, counterintuitively.
I do believe there is a strong correlation with danger (injuries, deaths, property damage) and speed, though of course, it's not perfectly linear.
It's impossible to do an apples-to-apples comparison, but deaths and injuries per mile traveled are lower in countries where a greater fraction of people travel by bike. Of course, as we reduce the car/bike ratio, we could expect car/bike collisions to decrease, so bike commuting is good for the population but not necessarily for the individual.
The danger of bike commuting hinges, to a large part, on the cyclist's skill. This is a good thing. Those who fear that it's highly dangerous seem to think luck has a lot to do with it. Half of bike accidents involve the rider and no other vehicle, i.e. typically, the rider falls off his bike. Sometimes the rider collides with a fixed object. Notice that these accidents decrease as experience increases.
Half of the car/bike collisions are the cyclist's fault, and half are the driver's fault. This is also a good thing. First, you can prevent the cyclist-fault accidents by not making the common mistakes. By doing that, you reduce the probability of a car/bike collision by half! The most common cause of car/bike collisions where the cyclist is at fault is when the cyclist is going against the direction of traffic. If you actually want to get into an accident, just ride the wrong way.
Second, by anticipating the bone-headed moves that motorists commonly make. There are two that are, by far, more common than all of the others. They are the right hook and the left hook. Be extremely ready for them.
Be predictable, and predict others.
I don't have a citation handy, but I do believe that by most measures, you are safer on a bike. You say counterintuitive is an understatement. That's merely because I've refuted something that everyone already "knows," but sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong. We assume cycling is dangerous because if a car collides with a bike in such a way that the collision would cause damage to the body of a car, we assume the cyclist would be crushed and either killed or severely injured. But most car/bike collisions don't play out this way. That kind of collision is pretty rare, and as I said, the risk can be mitigated.
Often, a cyclist's (or potential cyclist's) biggest fear is being hit from behind, but that's very rare, especially in the daytime. It might be a risk that is recently increasing because drivers are often distracted by cell phones etc when they should be looking through their windshields. But a driver with any sense of conscience, even a driver who is hostile towards cyclists, won't collide from behind if he sees the cyclist in front of him. This fact is very useful, and it's why taking a lane, when necessary, works out as well as it does. I try to be careful and not cut anyone off, i.e. if I pull in front of someone behind me driving a car, my aim is not to make him brake hard. I recently messed up on that, but he still had plenty of time to brake, and I wasn't in grave danger. This fear, though, is one reason naive cyclists ride the wrong way. It's also why people slink along the curb; they're afraid of being hit. This increases danger, counterintuitively.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
02-05-14, 01:14 PM
#34
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I get what you're saying, noglider. You're talking about a statistical observation of the general population. However, if someone is commuting by bicycle, they are essentially traveling the same distance they would have in a car. Granted, they may choose a different route, or use bike paths that eliminate the risk of encountering motor traffic. But I have a hard time believing that if I choose cycling to work over the same route I currently drive, that I would be safer. To say that concept is counterintuitive is an understatement. If it's true, I would like to read how you back that up. If nothing else, so I could appease my wife over my cycling commute.
I can't speak for him but I am of the same opinion, counter-intuitive though it may be. Unfortunately there is no explicit data, but here is a for-instance that is representative.
Number and distribution of fatal and nonfatal injuries (1999–2003, annualized) and person-trips (2001), by mode of travel, United States[SUP]*[/SUP]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Passenger vehicle[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]32,283 fatal,[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"][/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]2,804,000 nonfatal, in[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]349,125 million trips[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Bicycle[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]695[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]fatal,[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]48,000[/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]nonfatal, in [/TD]
[TD="class: table-char"]3,314 million trips.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So, passenger vehicle has 8 nonfatal injuries per million trips. Bicycle has 14. For fatal, it's .09 vs .21 fatalities per million trips. On the face of it, the bicycle is up to twice as dangerous. But that's not yet the whole story.
For one thing, the bicycle injury stats include bicycle riders of all ages, comparing against vehicle passengers of all ages. Including children and young invincibles who perhaps have less skill than seasoned commuters, whereas in the 25-65 age bracket the injury rates are significantly lower. Both for motor vehicles and bicycles, but enough lower with bicycles to eat away the apparent difference in danger with motor vehicles.
Secondly and more significant in my mind, is when you look at where and how injury accidents occur. More than a third - some say up to almost a half - of the urban bicycle traffic accidents happen at or approaching an intersection (including business driveways). With the right judgments and practices, that percentage can be practically eliminated. Another big chunk happens when riding against traffic, and at night with no lights, and cycling under the influence. I believe that eliminating all of these possibilities all by itself reduces the danger of cycling to levels at or below the overall injury rates in motor vehicles.
There are other higher-risk factors that can also be mitigated (such as higher risk rural road cycling) but I think these are more applicable to specifics of a person's route, and can't really be generalized well. Yet taking everything together, even in a statistical sense it's very possible (I haven't proven anything) that the risk of cycling is lower than driving on a given commute.
02-05-14, 03:56 PM
#36
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https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/...ransportation/
Going only by injuries per miles traveled, cars win. Well, I'm sure buses and trains are way more safe than cars, but cars are safer than bicycles. Both are much more safe than motorcycles.
02-08-14, 10:18 AM
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Thanks though for the info. To explain where I'm coming from - I love cycling and have been averaging between six and seven thousand miles for the past five years. My cholesterol, blood pressure and mental state are definitely better as a result of cycling.
On the flip side - I've had both close calls and non-collision crashes during that time and as most of my commuting is done in the dark (when I've had most of my crashes) I've come to the conclusion that cycling is relatively dangerous compared to driving ( especially in the dark or inclement weather). As there are people other than myself that depend on my paycheck, I sometimes wonder if I'm being selfish by riding so much. I've cranked up the accidental death and disability portion of my insurance (which is relatively cheap), but being a numbers kind of guy have often wondered what the actual risk is as opposed to my perceived risk.
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02-08-14, 11:08 AM
#38
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Not sure of the on the "get robbed get shot" aspect ?
How is it safer??
I don't think bike riding is dangerous-but it isn't safer than car travel??
OP- what city are you in?? Could be helpful to fellow forum members.
Spare wheel- yes that is POSSIBLE-but just how likely to you think your good samaritan explanation is?
PDX- is Portland? - a relatively safe city-relative to NOLA DETROIT CLEVELAND CHICAGO ??
How many murders last year? Population?
OP -I have a Glock 27- with 23 magazine and spacer-13 rds-but the 26 10 rds with factory mag?-Plenty
I used to put great stock in "stopping power-bullet performance" but as I have gotten older I have come to understand bullet control-hitting anywhere-is all that matters-not as if many folks are hardened enough to continue once they are hit-
If I had it to do over-I might get the Glock 26
I'm kinda surprised there are so many admitted gun toters on this forum.
Bike riders are thought to be left of center-red state types(I voted for president-wouldn't call myself liberal or progressive)
and left of center folks are usually viewed as anti hand gun
fair number of gun toters-
not as much anti gun sentiment as I would expect
02-08-14, 11:43 AM
#40
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I was riding home from my mother's last night after 10:00 and made a quick stop at a local eatery to get a sandwich to take home. As I was locking my bike up I noticed a car parked in an odd place by the building with voices and laughing coming form inside. For some reason my Spidey sense started tingling, so, I went to the door on the other side of the building to keep from walking by the car.
When I left a few minutes later, the car was still there and one of the passengers was out of the car smoking a cigarette and watching me as I unlocked my bike. As I rode off I took a wide berth around the car. The passenger snuffed out his cigarette and got back in the car as I rode off. Sure enough they started the car and started to follow. I rode quickly to a convenience store a few doors down just to be around some other people. I stood by the door waiting. The car pulled in an parked, and nobody got out for quite a while. I was taking a drink out of my water bottle trying to decide what to do - Go into the store? Call the police? Well, I didn't do either. I didn't want to go into the store and leave my bike outside and I didn't want to call the police and sound like a goof when the guys in the car hadn't done anything. I carry a gun, so, I took off my gloves (it was cold) in case I hade to grab it.
Finally, the passenger got out of the car and I jumped back on my bike and rode back the way I came. I got to a place where I could duck into some deep shadows and waited. After a while, they came back the same way also. I waited a bit, then took some back roads home. I left my gloves off and my lights off all of the way.
As I was riding home I was trying to figure out why the Spidey senses were tingling and it came to me rather quickly. Last July there was a cyclist shot in the leg late at night as he was riding home. The police investigated and decided that it was a random act of violence and the guys were never caught. I kind of remembered the description of the car and shooter that the cyclist gave the police and after checking the news article I was correct. The description the cyclist gave was of a late model black four-door vehicle. The shooter was a heavyset black male with a round face and long dreadlocks. This is the exact same description of the car and passenger I saw last night.
Was it the same people? I don't know. Did it scare me. Yes, it did. The city I live in just made the list of the 100 most dangerous place to live in the US. We came in at number 95 , but I still had no idea that this town of 160,000 had become that bad.
I really want to get back to commuting most of the time, but I just don't know how safe I feel on a bike at night here anymore.
When I left a few minutes later, the car was still there and one of the passengers was out of the car smoking a cigarette and watching me as I unlocked my bike. As I rode off I took a wide berth around the car. The passenger snuffed out his cigarette and got back in the car as I rode off. Sure enough they started the car and started to follow. I rode quickly to a convenience store a few doors down just to be around some other people. I stood by the door waiting. The car pulled in an parked, and nobody got out for quite a while. I was taking a drink out of my water bottle trying to decide what to do - Go into the store? Call the police? Well, I didn't do either. I didn't want to go into the store and leave my bike outside and I didn't want to call the police and sound like a goof when the guys in the car hadn't done anything. I carry a gun, so, I took off my gloves (it was cold) in case I hade to grab it.
Finally, the passenger got out of the car and I jumped back on my bike and rode back the way I came. I got to a place where I could duck into some deep shadows and waited. After a while, they came back the same way also. I waited a bit, then took some back roads home. I left my gloves off and my lights off all of the way.
As I was riding home I was trying to figure out why the Spidey senses were tingling and it came to me rather quickly. Last July there was a cyclist shot in the leg late at night as he was riding home. The police investigated and decided that it was a random act of violence and the guys were never caught. I kind of remembered the description of the car and shooter that the cyclist gave the police and after checking the news article I was correct. The description the cyclist gave was of a late model black four-door vehicle. The shooter was a heavyset black male with a round face and long dreadlocks. This is the exact same description of the car and passenger I saw last night.
Was it the same people? I don't know. Did it scare me. Yes, it did. The city I live in just made the list of the 100 most dangerous place to live in the US. We came in at number 95 , but I still had no idea that this town of 160,000 had become that bad.
I really want to get back to commuting most of the time, but I just don't know how safe I feel on a bike at night here anymore.
Besides the usual hazards, we make some pretty easy targets out there for those who might want to roll us for what they think we have and have had people try to jack me off my bike while I rode through sketchier areas.
...
On another note, it is also racist to assume that you cannot describe people or get upset with the description of those who meet the description of others who perpetrated an assault on another cyclist.
02-08-14, 12:51 PM
#41
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phoebeisis, I don't remember where I read what I've stated. I guess I better find it again and bookmark it so I can cite it properly later. Anyway, I do generally feel safer on the bike than in a car, with a few exceptions. In NYC, the average speed of traffic is very slow, which helps both car occupants and cyclists. In the suburbs where I recently moved from, there were enough low-speed roads with ample room to make me feel safe. As I said, a cyclist's skill makes a huge effect on his/her safety. So my risk is a lot lower than the risk of an average American cyclist. It's safer in places like the Netherlands, and maybe, since everyone grows up as a bike passenger, they have more cycling skill by the time they become a bike driver. The place is saturated with cyclists, where cyclists actually outnumber the car drivers, so cycling is normal there and car driving is weird. There might indeed be a big difference in cyclist skill between here and there.
Siu Blue Wind, I hope you'll permit me to say this without your deletion: I am anti-gun and I don't know if it's because I'm a cyclist or because I'm a northeasterner. I know northeasterners in cities generally lean anti-gun, but I didn't know that about cyclists. While I do have my views, I respect people in other areas have reasons for feeling differently, and it might be the case that looser gun laws make more sense in rural areas and in the western and southern states. So in other words, my way is better for me, but your way is better for you. I hope that is respectful enough to leave these comments intact.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
Siu Blue Wind, I hope you'll permit me to say this without your deletion: I am anti-gun and I don't know if it's because I'm a cyclist or because I'm a northeasterner. I know northeasterners in cities generally lean anti-gun, but I didn't know that about cyclists. While I do have my views, I respect people in other areas have reasons for feeling differently, and it might be the case that looser gun laws make more sense in rural areas and in the western and southern states. So in other words, my way is better for me, but your way is better for you. I hope that is respectful enough to leave these comments intact.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
02-08-14, 02:28 PM
#42
Pedaled too far.
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You have to consider how often it happens. That it happened once doesn't mean it will happen frequently. Once when commuting at night, I had a passenger lean out and grab my elbow. The next night, a passenger shot me with a pellet gun. At the same location!
But nothing has happened since then. So I ride on.
Another time, I had a flat at an intersection that is considered by authorities to be one of the biggest trouble spots in the city. There were no paper towels in the windshield washer stations at the gas station, so I checked the trash to see if I could find a used towel to wipe the grease off my hands. I found nothing but went back to the bike to finish the repair. As I worked, a fellow approached me and offered me a $20.00 bill so I could eat. I didn't accept it, I guess he saw me looking through the trash and thought I was looking for food, but it just shows you never know what will happen.
But nothing has happened since then. So I ride on.
Another time, I had a flat at an intersection that is considered by authorities to be one of the biggest trouble spots in the city. There were no paper towels in the windshield washer stations at the gas station, so I checked the trash to see if I could find a used towel to wipe the grease off my hands. I found nothing but went back to the bike to finish the repair. As I worked, a fellow approached me and offered me a $20.00 bill so I could eat. I didn't accept it, I guess he saw me looking through the trash and thought I was looking for food, but it just shows you never know what will happen.
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Last edited by Artkansas; 02-08-14 at 02:35 PM.
02-08-14, 03:21 PM
#43
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phoebeisis, I don't remember where I read what I've stated. I guess I better find it again and bookmark it so I can cite it properly later. Anyway, I do generally feel safer on the bike than in a car, with a few exceptions. In NYC, the average speed of traffic is very slow, which helps both car occupants and cyclists. In the suburbs where I recently moved from, there were enough low-speed roads with ample room to make me feel safe. As I said, a cyclist's skill makes a huge effect on his/her safety. So my risk is a lot lower than the risk of an average American cyclist. It's safer in places like the Netherlands, and maybe, since everyone grows up as a bike passenger, they have more cycling skill by the time they become a bike driver. The place is saturated with cyclists, where cyclists actually outnumber the car drivers, so cycling is normal there and car driving is weird. There might indeed be a big difference in cyclist skill between here and there.
Siu Blue Wind, I hope you'll permit me to say this without your deletion: I am anti-gun and I don't know if it's because I'm a cyclist or because I'm a northeasterner. I know northeasterners in cities generally lean anti-gun, but I didn't know that about cyclists. While I do have my views, I respect people in other areas have reasons for feeling differently, and it might be the case that looser gun laws make more sense in rural areas and in the western and southern states. So in other words, my way is better for me, but your way is better for you. I hope that is respectful enough to leave these comments intact.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
Siu Blue Wind, I hope you'll permit me to say this without your deletion: I am anti-gun and I don't know if it's because I'm a cyclist or because I'm a northeasterner. I know northeasterners in cities generally lean anti-gun, but I didn't know that about cyclists. While I do have my views, I respect people in other areas have reasons for feeling differently, and it might be the case that looser gun laws make more sense in rural areas and in the western and southern states. So in other words, my way is better for me, but your way is better for you. I hope that is respectful enough to leave these comments intact.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
Fair enough- I certainly don't think bike riding is particularly dangerous for me-kinda doubt it is safer for me than driving-certainly not per mile.
Gotta agree rider experience is a HUGE factor in risk.
And where the average speeds are low-NYNY city streets-it should be even safer-much easier for a car to stop from 20mph(30fps) than 35mpg(52fps)
and since the bikes and cars are very closely matched speed wise-
yeah crowded streets-pretty safe.
Anti gun-reasonable position-
Yeah there are plenty of my fellow citizens who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a gun- or a car
Geeky tree hugger on a bike-hard to find an easier mark-safe bet they had ZERO expectation that he would be armed-
02-08-14, 03:42 PM
#44
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Maybe the strange guy in the car caught sight of the strange guy on the bike and noticed he had a concealed weapon and that the guy with the weapon was eyeing him, acting suspiciously, glancing furtively back and forth at the local eatery and feared he might be about to rob the place or worse. Maybe the guy in the car was hanging out there because his friend worked there and he was concerned he was about to be a victim.
While the carrying of a gun may make the carrier feel safer if someone else notices you're packing you just become another nut with a gun and a potential shooter.
Just stating the obvious.
While the carrying of a gun may make the carrier feel safer if someone else notices you're packing you just become another nut with a gun and a potential shooter.
Just stating the obvious.
It is EASY to conceal a gun from visual detection-especially in winter-probably could hide a sub machine gun
You are forgiven-not being a gun nut-you wouldn't know that.
02-08-14, 04:25 PM
#45
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https://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/1...carriers-make/
Again, just stating the obvious.
Originally Posted by phoebeisis
Geeky tree hugger on a bike-hard to find an easier mark-safe bet they had ZERO expectation that he would be armed-
https://thealternativepress.com/artic...ve-by-shooting
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1373673
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.htmlhttps://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.html
Last edited by buzzman; 02-08-14 at 04:38 PM.
02-08-14, 04:38 PM
#46
Homey
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Siu Blue Wind, I hope you'll permit me to say this without your deletion: I am anti-gun and I don't know if it's because I'm a cyclist or because I'm a northeasterner. I know northeasterners in cities generally lean anti-gun, but I didn't know that about cyclists. While I do have my views, I respect people in other areas have reasons for feeling differently, and it might be the case that looser gun laws make more sense in rural areas and in the western and southern states. So in other words, my way is better for me, but your way is better for you. I hope that is respectful enough to leave these comments intact.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
wphamilton and enigma and others, I'd like to comment on what you've written. I'm going to reread it to see if I have a response.
Maybe I should just close this, since it can't stay free of P and R fodder.
02-08-14, 04:59 PM
#47
New Orleans
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https://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/1...carriers-make/
Please read the above posted link. And 2 assumptions you are making may be incorrect. 1) that all gun owners are nuts. And 2) that all gun owners know how to appropriately conceal carry.
Again, just stating the obvious.
https://thealternativepress.com/artic...ve-by-shooting
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1373673
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.htmlhttps://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.html
Please read the above posted link. And 2 assumptions you are making may be incorrect. 1) that all gun owners are nuts. And 2) that all gun owners know how to appropriately conceal carry.
Again, just stating the obvious.
https://thealternativepress.com/artic...ve-by-shooting
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1373673
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.htmlhttps://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...124615484.html
and I have a holster-for a S&W 642- prints JUST like a wallet-just stick it in your pocket-Voile' wallet
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