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A couple of things might be in conflict. First is efficiency before fatigue sets in. It's possible that there is one position for my feet on the pedals which gives me the most efficiency. But holding my feet in that one position can bring on fatigue. Fatigue reduces efficiency. At that point, I'm better off moving my feet than keeping them in one position.
I still use clipless, but sometimes, I unclip just to have a different position. |
Originally Posted by noglider
(Post 17201692)
Jeez, why can't different people have different needs and preferences? Is that so hard to believe and accept? Do you really see this as an argument to WIN?
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Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier
(Post 17201734)
You are correct. There are drawbacks, but they are convenience drawbacks, not function drawbacks. Every person must decide whether the advantages in function outweigh the drawbacks in convenience or practicality. I never said they were more practical, I said they are better in function and feel.
edit: Except for the generalization about European cyclists being stuck in the Victorian era, there was no insult or negativity in h(is/er) post. No speed gain. No financial gain. No training gain (over an average commute length). No style gain. In fact, I can't come up with a single reason to employ them except the amorphous "fit" and "connection" to the bike which is most likely the placebo effect. Yes, I find that generalisation insulting and tangental to the conversation at hand, which is why (s)he is on my ignore list. |
Originally Posted by matimeo
(Post 17201958)
Not at all true in my case. Knee pain issues began because I have difficulty keeping my legs lined up so they track correctly. Getting clipless pedals to hold my feet exactly in place the entire ride has eliminated problems so severe that I couldn't ride for almost a year. I know that isn't the case for everyone, but it isn't true to generalize it for everyone.
Regardless, switching to clipless eliminated my knee problems and allowed me to get back on the bike. |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17201906)
I don't think that even makes sense. Some studies have said that even tour de france level pro riders do not actually gain efficiency with clipless pedals. I haven't been 100% convinced that's the case, but at best even for them the difference is small.
Completely the opposite, if you have foot and knee pain you're far more likely to increase it with clipless systems that hold your foot in exactly 1 place the entire ride. I went through 3 pairs of shoes, 2 fitters, and doing specific exercises to eliminate knee pain from clipless, and that is not untypical. It's a lot easier to avoid knee pain with flats. Don't even see a benefit with track standing, in fact it makes it more risky if you do fall over that it's slower to get your foot down. LOL, why don't you go over and tell the most advanced and societally used bike commuting culture that you know better than them and they're doing it wrong. |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17201906)
I don't think that even makes sense. Some studies have said that even tour de france level pro riders do not actually gain efficiency with clipless pedals. I haven't been 100% convinced that's the case, but at best even for them the difference is small.
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17201906)
Completely the opposite, if you have foot and knee pain you're far more likely to increase it with clipless systems that hold your foot in exactly 1 place the entire ride. I went through 3 pairs of shoes, 2 fitters, and doing specific exercises to eliminate knee pain from clipless, and that is not untypical. It's a lot easier to avoid knee pain with flats.
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17201906)
The foot retention might or might not help with cadence. Don't even see a benefit with track standing, in fact it makes it more risky if you do fall over that it's slower to get your foot down.
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17201906)
The people who mention they're commuting in the rain and foot retention have an interesting point. I'd argue that you can get the same grip for that situation with wide pedals with pins, plus decent shoes.
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 17202540)
People project their fears of being unable to unclip onto clipless all the time. It's not true. I have had many instances of being unclipped without thought of doing so. Most recently, I crashed while on a mountain bike and ended up a full body length downhill from the bike without touching the ground first. The bike was 6 feet uphill from me and my shoes were still on my feet. I didn't even think about unclipping.
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Originally Posted by kenwer
(Post 17197794)
Why not good old duct tape? When you get to an intersection just lean on the car that's nearest the light, motorists are super friendly like that.
I like to call it "taking the intersection". It's great for increasing your visibility to drivers and reducing your risk of getting hit. :bike2: |
Originally Posted by mikeybikes
(Post 17202559)
I've found with my SPDs I just naturally unclip in a panic situation as well. I always seem to have the most problems unclipping when I have to think about it.
My input's anecdotal but still relevant I do believe. I've had clipless, clipless/platform, quill and clip, platform, huge platform, bear trap etc pedals.. I liked clipless a lot at first and it was the last type of pedals I tried, the power transfer is awesome and all that jazz (as for that cadence business... if you really want that ride a fixed gear) all very nice and I really did dig it, got the walkable shoes, got a bunch of clipless and clipless/platform pedals and rode the hell out of that.. until one day while in a do or die traffic situation the only thing that saved me from the pavement was a thoughtful motorist who was in the right place for me to grab their car to keep myself and the bike upright!(We won't even talk about the motorist that caused that situation...) this really didn't phase me since it was one incident and I know the perils of biking, by the third time the emergency clip out became a problem I'd had it and went back to quill pedals with cages and I much prefer it, no shoe swaps, able to remove your foot at will, still great power transfer, and the tiny contact patch where you clip into the clipless always felt bizarre to my large feet. And yes, the spd's were properly adjusted each of the three times, I double checked and had a mechanic friend also check it out. |
Originally Posted by matimeo
(Post 17201958)
Not at all true in my case. Knee pain issues began because I have difficulty keeping my legs lined up so they track correctly. Getting clipless pedals to hold my feet exactly in place the entire ride has eliminated problems so severe that I couldn't ride for almost a year. I know that isn't the case for everyone, but it isn't true to generalize it for everyone.
There's a huge difference between "occassionally clipless can improve leg pain for some people" and claiming that it typically does. |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17202650)
Fair enough, but thus my use of the phrase "more likely". You're much more likely to get knee/foot/leg pain from using clipless than not. But "likely" is the important word, it's interesting that two people (also @winston63) started using clipless and assumably used some sort of bike fitter and the knee pains went away. I'm not trying to say it never happens, but it's the minority of people for whom it works that way. I've heard that happening 1 previous time, but in addition to personal experience, the experience of people I know, I also see a far larger number of "how do I solve x-pain now that I switched to clipless?" threads as well.
There's a huge difference between "occassionally clipless can improve leg pain for some people" and claiming that it typically does. |
Originally Posted by RaleighSport
(Post 17202664)
That's fairly interesting since I would personally assume that clipless and clipped would be almost the same in terms of getting a proper fitting and getting the knee pain to go away, since the real keys I always thought were the appropriate crank arm length, as well as foot positioning over the pedals axle and both are fairly flexible in that sense.. especially if you have a good fitter or know how to fit yourself properly.
It's not a motion that's used almost anywhere else that your leg moves while affixed to exactly the same point over and over again. Usually the leg moves around about how and where it hits as you use it. Like in running, walking, etc. When you're attached to the pedal in exactly the same spot all the time, what could otherwise be a minor problem in leg motion that your body would work out by using the leg slightly differently over time, turns into a exactly repeated motion that turns into a problem. What I mean is - a minor problem can turn into a bigger problem because of the exacting repetition. Riding clipless is not natural. But in now way does that mean that it's inherently "bad". Surgery isn't natural either, but it's a huge benefit to people with diseases to people who it helps move around better. Likewise, if your body layout is good it can be fine. Or if someone who knows what they're doing sets things up, the posters above certainly suggest that it could even fix a problem if your "natural" motion is somehow screwed up. But on average, minor problems that your body would adjust to by shifting your foot position around a bit as you ride can turn into noticeable pain on clipless because your foot is always locked into the same position. If your position is good with your body layout - no problem. If it's not, it amplifies what would otherwise be a problem so small it was unnoticeable. That's my understanding, at least. |
Platform pedals are most practical and easiest to use for urban/city commuting. My foot has never slipped off the pedals... I also like to use toe clips with straps on my fixed gear bikes. Toe clips/straps give you the same performance as clipless, and you can wear whatever shoes you want. For everyday commuting which involves very frequent stops and dismounts clipless offers no advantages, my toe clips/straps are adjusted just tight enough to get benefits of foot retention but loose enough to pull my shoe out quickly.
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 17203112)
Platform pedals are most practical and easiest to use for urban/city commuting. My foot has never slipped off the pedals... I also like to use toe clips with straps on my fixed gear bikes. Toe clips/straps give you the same performance as clipless, and you can wear whatever shoes you want. For everyday commuting which involves very frequent stops and dismounts clipless offers no advantages, my toe clips/straps are adjusted just tight enough to get benefits of foot retention but loose enough to pull my shoe out quickly.
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 17203112)
Platform pedals are most practical and easiest to use for urban/city commuting.
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Well now I'm just depressed as apparently I'm less coordinated then the average cyclist. It takes me more thought and effort to get into and out of clips or clipless than it does platforms, and I've had a few OH-S### moments because of it. At least I can get out of clips without any conscious effort.
I guess that's why I immediately liked pinned pedals, I can just hop on and go under any conditions, yet my foot stays in place like I'm clipped. For me, up pull is moot as I only ride at that level on my play bike for fun. |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17202914)
But that last sentence is a huge add-on - a good fitter is not cheap, and fitting yourself properly is not simple. It's a bit like talking about an odd car then adding on "...especially if you're an auto mechanic".
It's not a motion that's used almost anywhere else that your leg moves while affixed to exactly the same point over and over again. Usually the leg moves around about how and where it hits as you use it. Like in running, walking, etc. When you're attached to the pedal in exactly the same spot all the time, what could otherwise be a minor problem in leg motion that your body would work out by using the leg slightly differently over time, turns into a exactly repeated motion that turns into a problem. What I mean is - a minor problem can turn into a bigger problem because of the exacting repetition. Riding clipless is not natural. But in now way does that mean that it's inherently "bad". Surgery isn't natural either, but it's a huge benefit to people with diseases to people who it helps move around better. Likewise, if your body layout is good it can be fine. Or if someone who knows what they're doing sets things up, the posters above certainly suggest that it could even fix a problem if your "natural" motion is somehow screwed up. But on average, minor problems that your body would adjust to by shifting your foot position around a bit as you ride can turn into noticeable pain on clipless because your foot is always locked into the same position. If your position is good with your body layout - no problem. If it's not, it amplifies what would otherwise be a problem so small it was unnoticeable. That's my understanding, at least. |
Seventy-two years old here. I've been riding clipless for over a year with a touch under 6000 miles since then. I fell over once the first day I tried clipless, none since then. My right hip angles out more than my left; the SPDs hold the shoe in the exact same place each time I ride. It took a bit of experimentation (and two fittings) but now each ride is fine. Unclipping in an emergency comes naturally.
Rich |
Originally Posted by PaulRivers
(Post 17199430)
I currently own mountain bike shoes (clipless). I walked a mile home this summer due to a flat (long story, my dad wanted to fix the flat at home rather than where we were for some reason) in mountain bike shoes, and it was uncomfortable. Doeable, but uncomfortable. There's no way I'd walk any significant distance in them. I've gone grocery shopping in them - they worked ok, a little slippery. And I've used softer soled clipless - they gave me more knee pain as the cleat squirmed around (that part may not happen to everyone), and they're not as useful as clipless with a stiff sole for power transfer either. They also have a fashion problem sometimes, depending on what else you're wearing.
I can't be sure since I don't live in Europe, but it seems like wearing clipless being a fashion item (which seems to be most of the people going for pro-clipless for a 4 mile commute in this thread) is a fairly american thing. Whenever I see videos of people commuting in Europe, in the countries where bike commuting is a regular source of transportation rather than a niche racer-oriented thing like it is here, I don't think I ever see people wearing clipless (people who aren't racing). There's a reason - because clipless for speed isn't useful at all for short distances. It's debated whether it actually improves your speed on long distances for racers even. (Not weighing in that it does or it doesn't.) It certainly isn't going to improve your speed if the max distance you ever ride is 4 miles. I guess you could debate whether you prefer the "connected to the pedal" feel of clipless, but I just can't imagine it being worth the hassle if the longest you ever ride is 4 miles. It doesn't seem like in countries where bike commuting is common, that people there are claiming clipless is at all necessary if you're not racing. |
Originally Posted by andyprough
(Post 17202602)
Stopping at intersections is for losers. Just keep rolling. :speedy:
I like to call it "taking the intersection". It's great for increasing your visibility to drivers and reducing your risk of getting hit. :bike2: |
I think that the biggest difference between preference of platform and attached is riding style. I would venture a guess that aggressive, fast riders prefer to attach their foot. More leisurely riders likely prefer platforms. This is in no way a blanket statement, just a hypothesis.
I think this is why many mountain bikers and racers prefer clipless. Except the downhill riders out here who all seem to use use pinned platforms. But I have seen my lab mates leg after a pedal strike and it is not pretty. Some people adapt to new things better and are more adapt than others. Therefore clipless can be a challenge for some and second nature for others. Ultimately it is personal preference and what one gets used to. I personally ride aggressive and fast compared to most commuters I see; I use clipless. |
Originally Posted by andyprough
(Post 17202602)
I like to call it "taking the intersection". It's great for increasing your visibility to drivers and reducing your risk of getting hit.
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 17197864)
Sure, I do that.
But it's not so nice when I need to stop somewhere on the bike on the way home (for a party, to go to the pub, to go to dinner, to catch a train/plane/boat). It's just adds complication if the bike is really used as sole transport. I ride clipless if I'm going for a long ride on a bike trail or country roads. Constantly clipping in and out at traffic lights get old after awhile. |
Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 17203112)
Platform pedals are most practical and easiest to use for urban/city commuting. My foot has never slipped off the pedals... I also like to use toe clips with straps on my fixed gear bikes. Toe clips/straps give you the same performance as clipless, and you can wear whatever shoes you want. For everyday commuting which involves very frequent stops and dismounts clipless offers no advantages, my toe clips/straps are adjusted just tight enough to get benefits of foot retention but loose enough to pull my shoe out quickly.
Originally Posted by acidfast7
(Post 17203177)
Second smarted post I have seen in a long time on BF.
It's not like I haven't given them a chance. I've had them on 3 separate bikes. I find clipless much easier to get into. And I have a platform on the other side of the pedal on my fixed gear so if I don't want to deal with special shoes, I don't need to. Yes, I know. Some people don't like "campus" pedals. I do. I will agree that in most situations any performance benefits from clipless on short to medium commutes is probably not worth it. But you may want clipless pedals for other reasons like I do, though there's plenty of days I stick to platforms. And honestly I could care less what somebody halfway across the world does on their commute. There are people I see in my own town who've made completely different choices than I have. I've certainly tried several different types of pedals and ridden a bunch of different types of bikes. I ride what I like. I had a neighbor from the Netherlands. He was a good friend, but eventually he moved back because he wanted to raise his kids around his family. Anyway, his commute was shorter than mine, but do you know what he rode to work while he lived here? A Honda Civic. ;) |
Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 17204508)
Anyway, his commute was shorter than mine, but do you know what he rode to work while he lived here? A Honda Civic. ;)
I have a Parisian colleague working in London and the first thing he's doing in SF is being a huge car and renting a large house! |
Originally Posted by Corben
(Post 17203800)
you know you're absolutely right. I figured because I have a new road bike I must go clipless now. you know....to be in the groove. And I really don't want to be at work earlier now that I think about it.
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
(Post 17204508)
But what if you ride fixed and don't like toe clips? ;)
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
(Post 17205608)
It's also a lot easier to track stand on a fixie , so there is no need to take a foot of the pedals everytime I stop.
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 17205642)
Easier sure...but track standing/sitting on a geared bike is not difficult.
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 17201100)
And, unless you changed the pedals on your bike from the "BSO" thread, you have toe clips. That's not the same as a platform pedal.
Personally I use BMX pedals, which are not intended for use with toe clips. Slippage has never been an issue, except for the desirable intentional kind, i.e., the ability to move my foot fore and aft on the pedal as appropriate when the road grade changes. |
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