physics of drafting busses
#27
No pain, no gain.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 513
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From: California's Gold That's Amazing!
Bikes: Trek 7100, Windsor Fens
Originally Posted by norton
Yeah.... I remember spotting that.....movie hokum.....Not that it couldn't be done....They just didn't do it in that scene of the movie....
One of my all-time favorite movies.....perfect casting....."RE-fund!.....RE-fund!!...."
I believe it was low-budget as well....
One of my all-time favorite movies.....perfect casting....."RE-fund!.....RE-fund!!...."
I believe it was low-budget as well....
#28
Mad bike riding scientist




Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Originally Posted by recursive
Well, remember, he was in the small chain ring. Probably 42-11 at the most.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
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Stuart Black
Dreamin' of Bemidji Down the Mississippi (in part)
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#29
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 4
From: Cary, NC
Bikes: 1983 Trek 500, 2002 Lemond Zurich, 2023 Litespeed Watia
I exceeded 40 mph drafting an RV on a level arterial road. It had turned off the same side road I was on, and because it accelerated gradually and there were no road junctions on the stretch ahead, i.e. I was pretty confident it would maintain speed, I kept up with it until we reached an incline.
I don't think I would do it again, since a bike doesn't brake as well as most motor vehicles. But it was fun just to have tried it once.
I don't think I would do it again, since a bike doesn't brake as well as most motor vehicles. But it was fun just to have tried it once.
#30
Videre non videri
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,208
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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
Originally Posted by slvoid
Drag = (Cd*Area*density*Speed^2)/2
Purely in terms of force needed to overcome aerodynamic drag:
For example, with completely made up numbers of Cd=.25, A=.5, density as 1, speed initial = 1.4m/s (5km/hr). Force to overcome drag is .1225
At twice the speed, drag is .49
At 4x the speed (20km/hr) drag is 1.96
At 8x the speed (40km/hr) drag is 7.84
To go from 6mph to 12mph, it's 2x faster but it takes 4x the amount of force.
So to go from 6mph to 24mph, it's 4x faster but it takes 16x the amount of force.
Compared to 6mph, to sprint to 36mph, you would need roughly 36x the amount of force.
Purely in terms of force needed to overcome aerodynamic drag:
For example, with completely made up numbers of Cd=.25, A=.5, density as 1, speed initial = 1.4m/s (5km/hr). Force to overcome drag is .1225
At twice the speed, drag is .49
At 4x the speed (20km/hr) drag is 1.96
At 8x the speed (40km/hr) drag is 7.84
To go from 6mph to 12mph, it's 2x faster but it takes 4x the amount of force.
So to go from 6mph to 24mph, it's 4x faster but it takes 16x the amount of force.
Compared to 6mph, to sprint to 36mph, you would need roughly 36x the amount of force.
That's what gearing is for.
Instead, we're mainly concerned with power. And power is force times speed.
So, we have speed multiplied into the whole thing a third time, making the power dependent on speed cubed.
If the power required to go 5 mph is 125 (made-up, unit-less number), then you need a power of 1000 to go 10 mph. And 8000 to go 20 mph. This is the aerodynamic drag/power only.
Rolling power increases linearly with speed, so going twice as fast just means twice the power. That power is added to the aerodynamic power.
When and object moves through a fluid (air, water, et c) it affects the fluid around it.
The air within the boundary layer "sticks" to the surface of the object and is continually set in motion in the direction of the moving object. After the moving air slips off of the object, it is still in motion forward. This forward motion slowly returns to normal local air speed some distance behind the first object. Any object following behind, within this distance, will experience a lower relative air speed, and that translates to a lower drag force and less power required.
This drag is known as friction drag. Unless you have two (for the purpose) highly optimised objects, very close together, this type of drag is not lessened by the object behind.
A bluff object also has plenty of form drag, which is the difference in pressure between the front of the object and the rear of the object. The pressure by the oncoming relative wind on the front of the moving object is a force, and it acts to slow the object. If there's an equal amount of pressure from the air on the rear half of the object, the two forces cancel out, and there is no drag.
This is known as pressure recovery, and the main purpose of aerodynamic shapes is to maximise it.
Pressure drag, like friction drag, can't be eliminated.
If another object is close behind the first, its moving through the air creates a kind of "bow wave" where the air slows down (stagnation) relative to the free air far away. This slower air helps the object in front with its pressure recovery, since the lower relative wind means the negative pressure is lower.
Thus, both objects gain from being close, though not equally much.
The larger and boxier the object in front, the more you gain!
#31
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,068
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From: Southern California
Bikes: 2013 KHS Flite 747
Originally Posted by TrevorInSoCal
Don't be so sure. My personal best is 173 RPM (36 MPH on a fixie w/ a 42x16 gear). Though I can't claim to have been exerting any actual power to the pedals at that point. It was all I could do to *keep up* with them.
.
On a bike with a freewheel though, you could probably manage short bursts of a super-fast cadence to just *barely* maintain enough speed to stay in the draft...
-Trevor
.On a bike with a freewheel though, you could probably manage short bursts of a super-fast cadence to just *barely* maintain enough speed to stay in the draft...
-Trevor
#32
2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM

Joined: Oct 2003
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From: NYC
Bikes: 04' Specialized Hardrock Sport, 03' Giant OCR2 (SOLD!), 04' Litespeed Firenze, 04' Giant OCR Touring, 07' Specialized Langster Comp
Originally Posted by CdCf
Drag is a force, yes, but we don't really have to worry about force when we ride.
That's what gearing is for.
That's what gearing is for.
There is a difference between the force you put down on your pedals and the force of the air pushing against you. You've confused the two. One you would use gearing to overcome, the other.. other than getting more aerodynamic, I'm not sure if there are any other ways to overcome wind resistance.
#33
No one carries the DogBoy

Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Upper Midwest USA
Bikes: Roubaix Expert Di2, Jamis Renegade, Surly Disc Trucker, Cervelo P2, CoMotion Tandem
Originally Posted by slovid
...I'm not sure if there are any other ways to overcome wind resistance.
#34
2-Cyl, 1/2 HP @ 90 RPM

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,762
Likes: 5
From: NYC
Bikes: 04' Specialized Hardrock Sport, 03' Giant OCR2 (SOLD!), 04' Litespeed Firenze, 04' Giant OCR Touring, 07' Specialized Langster Comp
Originally Posted by DogBoy
Ride your bike on the moon?
#37
Videre non videri
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,208
Likes: 4
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Bikes: 1 road bike (simple, light), 1 TT bike (could be more aero, could be lighter), 1 all-weather commuter and winter bike, 1 Monark 828E ergometer indoor bike
Originally Posted by slvoid
The last time I checked, when the wind pushes against you, it's a force. I'm glad you don't have to worry about this opposing force but the rest of us who live in reality will unfortunately have to deal with the opposing force of air pushing against us every time we ride.
There is a difference between the force you put down on your pedals and the force of the air pushing against you. You've confused the two. One you would use gearing to overcome, the other.. other than getting more aerodynamic, I'm not sure if there are any other ways to overcome wind resistance.
There is a difference between the force you put down on your pedals and the force of the air pushing against you. You've confused the two. One you would use gearing to overcome, the other.. other than getting more aerodynamic, I'm not sure if there are any other ways to overcome wind resistance.
Of course, the drag force is "two thirds" of the power, so it's important for sure, but it's not really what we fight against when we pedal. Our effort pedalling is the power required, but the force we're pushing down the pedals with depends mostly on gearing, and is limited at the lower end by the cadence we're comfortable with.





