Yes, shockingly, I consider quality when shopping for bicycles...although of the 30 or so bikes I've owned, only one has been a 'new' bike purchase, and that was a bare frame I built up with mostly used parts. Buying used also eliminates greenhouse shipping gasses. :thumb:



I'd be much happier buying a used Crosscheck locally than having a new bike shipped to me from Germany.

Great! But you must admit that it's not made or assembled/tested locally, which is a shame.

All your money is flowing to Asia, which is OK, but most people prefer not to think about that ...

I'd rather keep it "in house", which is currently the EU, so I'd like it made, assembled, tested here and then shipped to me (still in EU for the time being :eek: )

I'd be fine with them on any bike that I didn't want to put fenders on. And this is the commute forum after all, not the BMX forum.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T...0901141303.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J...o/P4120304.JPG

CC copies a very well ridden geometry, the old French Rando/Touring bike. Surly followed a well trodden path, the old Schwinn Super Sport/Sports Tourer/Paramount touring frames are almost exactly the same as the CC. Most of the competitors have a twitchy 73* head tube angle and short TT length, someone at Surly had a clue. I love the BD/Motobecane built but the geometries in the taller sizes is so weird. I want to buy the Ti/disc frame but in the larger sizes the head tube angle is stupid steep and the reach is short.

I get a kick out of the claim that hand welds are better than robots. Nothing could be further from the truth, that's why all the world's auto makers have converted. Not just the giant ones, the little specialty companies such as Ferrari, Bugatti etc use robots for their manufacturing. Quality isn't dependent on the condition of the worker (hung over is the largest issue to bad welds).

If you read my posts, I never claimed of the quality of the weld is/was better.

People around here really need reading comprehension lessons and/or need to be more objective.

Well, we can't all be as smart as you, after all, you're the smartest person you've ever met :thumb:

Way to not respond. Should've expect that after someone precipitated a logical fallacy.

The fact that this is already a 4 page thread should be enough to answer to the OP's question. It's a proven design that can be many things to many people and it is very well marketed. Where is the mystery? If it doesn't speak to you then by all means don't buy one.

Now go ride your bike.

Can't stand them myself. I've had bikes with track ends,semi-verts,EBB's,and sliding dropouts,and if I ever start my own bike company,all the non-derailleur bikes will have sliding dropouts. Oh,and proper witness marks as well.

Yeah, I was getting to the point of saying that, too. When I started this thread, I certainly didn't intend to ignite a flame war. I just figured my curiosity about a certain bike would give owners of that bike an opportunity to rave about it. As it turns out, I've heard a few good reasons why people like their Surlys, but I'm certainly not convinced that it would change my life to own one.

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. I'm going out to ride, too.

Yeah not sure why there's argument. I like my Surly, but it won't change your life. It hasn't changed mine -except for that I have a quality bike to ride.

The truth hurts, eh?

Psst ... Don't provoke the animals in the cages.

Actually, in fact you make an implied claim:

By stating you trust a hand weld over a machine weld implies you believe the quality of a hand weld is better. Thus ends your reading comprehension lesson for today.

I think someone needs a lesson in inductive versus deductive reasoning. I always speak deductively and never imply.

I'd prefer that every frame be signed by the welder... but that's not going to happen. Hard to guarantee the weld is hand-made and from the reported country of origin, unless you are willing to spend big bucks. If mass production is the goal, there's really no reason to believe that a welder is going to do their best work. I'd actually trust a machine over a human (in a mass production scenario), so long as the machine is properly tuned by a human. The machine won't get tired, careless, or dream about what they will do when the shift is over. It's one thing to put faith in an artisan... but you pay for that.

Not that this has anything to do with this thread, just stating that if you make vague posts without being definitive in what you mean, you kind of open your words to being read into. If you want to be clear, then write clearly. Although there's no harm in clarifying after the fact if someone misunderstands. No reason to start with the ad hominem attacks about reading comprehension... just clarify what you meant without the jerk-itude.

The Cross-Check does not have French randonneur geometry. Not even close. It has totally conventional mid-trail sport-touring geometry. It's pretty much right in the middle of its competitors. Some CX bikes sold by other manufacturers have steeper head angles (though not many), lots of them have shallower head angles. By the way - 73 degrees is not "twitchy," certainly not to any extent that 72 degrees will necessarily feel markedly different.

I do think that the Cross-Check's popularity is an intriguing mystery, and I say that as an owner. I think it checked the right boxes at the right time, and took off. It has been available as a complete bike for a long time, remember, and early on it really didn't have much direct competition. These days it does, and that competition is generally better spec'd and definitely lighter weight for the same price. That the CC complete is still sold with bar end shifters and a steel fork at a $1300 pricepoint doesn't look too good next to the competition.

There's also just a lot of myth out there about the wondrous qualities of the Cross-Check that gets repeated over and over again mostly because the people who buy and ride them and evangelize them have limited experience with and/or interest in nicer bicycles. My favorite has to be the myth that the Cross-Check is a really comfortable bike, because it's made of steel. Um. No. Cross-Checks are comfortable because they get ridden with fat tires. Their intrinsic ride qualities are more akin to those of a brick than a magic carpet. They ride heavily even for their price bracket. But "steel is comfortable" is just so taken for granted these days that people accept that the Cross-Check MUST be a comfortable bike, and because they have little or no experience with better-riding bikes, they believe it.

I got my Cross-Check a little over two years ago, as a frame set, and that decision made sense to me at the time. I had pretty much all the parts I needed for it from another bike, it would work as a commuter and let me start racing cyclocross, and I was even able to keep it from being too much of a pig, though it was still well over 20 lbs. But now I have a newer, better cyclocross bike, and an old hybrid I can dedicate as a rainy-day commuter bike. So I'm selling the Cross-Check. I want to emphasize that the Cross-Check is a good bike! It has very good quality control, it can do a lot of things pretty well, and it has a certain pleasing aesthetic to it (mine is a very boring black, but there are other colors available). It's just not as amazing as the hype would suggest, and these days it's not particularly well-priced for what you get, especially if you're looking at the complete bike as opposed to a frame set. So I won't miss it when it's gone.

Who in the EU makes anything similar to the Cross Check for around 600 euro or less? Serious question as I'm looking for a new frame and want a city cross bike that can be ridden fixed and take a rack and mudguards. The CC is 409 euro, so I figure a 200 euro premium for EU made is fair. Thanks!

Frame only for €409 I assume?

+1

and very well-written ... it's a lot of outdated factors that seem to get repeated.

Frame and fork. I'm only looking for a frameset.

I'd look at Tout Terrain frames.

http://www.tout-terrain.de/fahrraeder/

Your tacit assumption that locally assembled/tested bike are not available in the USA is amusing.

A quite outdated list:

Bikes made in Portland, Oregon

For example, it does not include:

Process ? Cielo Cycles
http://bikeportland.org/2013/11/01/t...portland-94503

When it comes to locally produced craft beer or craft bikes there is not a single city in Europe that can compare to Portland, OR.

Craft beers are a joke perpetrated on the American consumer. I don't want coffee in my beer thank you very much. Espresso is espresso and beer is beer ... don't mix them :mad:

Not that that's out of the way ... people here need reading comprehension lessons.

The bikes I pointed out are hand-made in the EU at the same price point as the Surly CC.

Are any of the bikes you listed as being handmade at the same price point as the CC?

People get angry but seem to fail to read what I've written. Reading comprehension in this thread is abysmal.

I seem to misread the early post (ironic!) that the CC frame/fork was $599, I guess it's $480 now that I re-read the post.

The German handmade frames over here start €599 - VAT (€480 ... which works out to around $600). Some are cheaper, but TT offers the best quality in that price range.

That is the comparison I was making.