He saw all the riders in front of him stop well in advance and he seemed to stay upright for a few seconds before tumbling over. It seems to me like a track stand gone wrong rather than him forgetting to unclip

This is a thread about encounters with black ice and how to minimize risk, not pedal type. Thanks!

I had no idea i was on ice or i would have stopped and walked or found an alternate route. It is in a spot on a hill where ice has formed on the MUP and on the roadway causing incidents for both MUP users and motorists. The creek & nearby wooded area of the park seems to create a chilling thermal zone that is the culprit... In any case... afterwards i got a ride, and it dawned on me by being a passenger 2 things: 1. there was a huge ass-ton of black ice all over everywhere on the roads driveways, sidewalks, literally just everywhere on lightly used parts of pavement or concrete and 2. i would have probably gone down the same spot a lot faster after the oscars party, and that would probably have caused damage to the bike. I'm not too worried about me... i know i'm not invincible but i have thick bones and my brain tends to block pain enough to function after an incident, but my bike would have definitely gotten some kind of damage. I had my bags on, so that probably helped, but if i were going fast i could have ended up KIA'ing the bag on the impact side, bending the rack, crunking the shifter, grip, seat etc on the impact side..... something i cannot afford both figuratively and literally to have happen.

But yea, having a second bike that isnt my primary cargo & grocery carrying vehicle which can be fitted for the season is definitely on my list of must-haves, but till then and till i get money for studded tires, i'll just have to be a bit more vigilant.

P.S. I will say this (and only this) about pedal type.... in the speed of this incident, i didnt even have time to put a foot down off platform pedals, bike just slipped out to the left and suddenly i was on the ground. Pedal type NOT RELEVANT.

- Andy

Must be begging for it although the fixed gear drivetrain warrants foot retention for back braking while the Nokian tyres (296 studs per) ensure that I can track stand on a freshly cleared skating rink.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/2015thumper.JPG

My derailleur equipped winter bike and 3 speed winter bike have Marathon winter tyres and platforms.

The same thing happened to me 2 days ago (my bike just slipped out to the left on black ice as well) but i saved it. I had platform pedals.

In those 2 videos these guys seems to have anticipated falls. They acted before a major motion of the bike
For me those are slow falls (plenty of time to anticipate)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tdJazvWEcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on6QZXvNDHk

In this one it doesn't seems he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxpB1TszKME
Bike move first (rotate in this case) and the guy reacts to the bike rotating. Pretty much like in a case of an unexpected fast slipping wheel on black ice.
From what i've read it takes about 250ms for someone to react to a stimulus.
Your reaction to the event was pretty much like my accident with a car a few years back. Got early warning (in your case the rear wheel slipping) but chose to dismiss it. It happens even to the best :)
Processing of this first stimulus probably resulted in generating a psychological refractory period in which processing of a second stimulus was slowed down by processing of the first one.

The N360 hub is totally different from what most other cyclists use, and totally different from my old bike that i had over a decade. I literally said out loud to myself "ah man, they better fix this quick when i take it in" as it all ready needs to go in for new brake pads, chain lube, and chain case install. The bike over-all is great, i'm simply not used to owning and using a bike like this... i've had a kids bike then a full suspension mountain bike, then a road bike, and then the cruiser. and i had the cruiser for 12 years. I ran the mountain bike into the ground as it was basically a BSO and was not worth buying new parts for, the road bike was OK but my skill and confidence level was not as good back then, so i opted to ride my brother's schwinn cruiser most of the time if available, then i got my own cruiser..... so... its easy to dismiss an issue like crank slip (crank rotate, wheel not) with this bike as something i can check out later. This is also the first time this winter it snowed then sleeted then rained then got above freezing on a clear day. So as most incidents tend to be, it wasnt one thing, it was a combination of factors. I'm just glad the instinct to pull my head away from the ground kicked in or i'd probably need another new helmet.

- Andy

Black ice often forms in cold-spots on otherwise warm roads; places such as shadows, dips where cold air collects.
It forms on untreated cyclepaths alongside roads that have been safely gritted.
At near-zero C (ie freezing point) black ice may have a layer of meltwater for extra concealement and slipperyness.
There are other kinds of ice on the road, but black ice is the most hazardous. If you ride with any dependance on tyre traction (ie lean, steer, road camber, slick tarmac, brake or balance recovery) you are going down fast.
Studded winter tyres are a solution but black ice can sneak in on otherwise clear and cold mornings when you might not be using studs. If your winter is long, cold and icy, you should be using studs the whole time. In more temperate climates, cold days can be exceptional and no-one wants to use studs if they don't have to.

Black ice may form on rough surfaces (unworn chip and seal) but this presents no real danger. You need a smooth surface to be really dangerous.
Note the micro-climates on your route esp cold spots where black ice can form.

Normally I would never advocate riding FG without foot retention. However one of my FG bikes which I use during winter has very low gear ratio, it easy to control and easy to stop with pinned BMX pedals and grippy shoes.

Good Morning.

As this thread is about riding in winter and falling due to black ice, please stay on that topic. There are a million other threads discussing the pluses and minuses of pedals.

Thank you!

This is why I haven't bike commuted in more than a week. There has been black ice everywhere on our streets in the mornings since we had a sleet storm last Monday night. The weather warmed up over the weekend with some rain, so hopefully that will clear the roadside of ice that continues to melt during the days and refreeze at nights.

With the temperatures we've been having lately black ice isn't so much a concern. But it may become so in a few weeks, when hopefully this deep freeze breaks. I haven't been on my bike in February at all due to the weather.

When I had my fall on the driveway ice I had studded tires. It made no difference. Perhaps at higher speeds it would be different.

If there are bike shops around you that stock studded tires you might be able to get a really good deal in a few weeks. My current set was a 2 for 1 deal that I got at the end of March or early April.

I bought the Kendas Klondikes, much cheaper than other offerings, studs are carbide/long lasting just like the expensive tires. They ride like rocks in the cold but it doesn't bother me. I was attending a brewery event on Saturday, the weather went from wet to a flash freeze with snow on top. My Klondikes took me home safe and sound. Here it doesn't stay cold all winter long like Chicago, I'm building a second set of wheels so I can swap if it's going to go below freezing.

[MENTION=339610]Darth Lefty[/MENTION]. That is an appropriate title.

I went down once due to black ice, it was a late November morning many years ago. I knew I had the risk of black ice on this 90° corner, so I took it slow and cautious and made it through. Then as I went straight I thought okay I'm in the clear, only to have that thought disrupted by sliding along the road.

This reminded me when there is a risk of black ice never get complacent in your thoughts. Lucky for me there was no lasting damage to me or the bike.

I got studded tires this year and put them on any time the temperature was near freezing. I didn't want to take the risk.

Studded tires work great on ice. Cheaper than bruises. And better looking.

There are a couple of "lessons learned" to take from this: one is not to use tires that just have the studs going down the center (Nokian W106's?), and the other is not to lean the bike as aggressively as you do in the summer. Moving the center of gravity away from over the wheels is just begging to have the bike slide out from under you. ;)

My hairiest encounter with ice was when I was in college. I was riding a squirrely racing bike with a rack on the back and my book bag strapped to the rack. I reached a pinch-point in the road, going under an overpass with a bike-tire-eating sewer grate. I had to move to the left to avoid the grate, but there was a bus coming up from behind, and suddenly, I hit ice. My rear end fishtailed, and I thought, OK, now I'm going to die, because the bus was right behind me. Somehow I stayed up and lived to tell this tale. I will never know how.

And I fell on ice twice in one ride last winter. I did not get hurt thanks to some interesting luck. I had previously taught adults how to ride a bike, and a technique I have for allaying their fears of falling is teaching them the "stage fall." This is how a stage actor falls, when the script calls for it. You bend your ankle to the side, then fall on your ankle, knee, hip, elbow, then shoulder. We do it on the grass in slow motion. Well, when I fell on the ice, that practice came into use without my thinking about it. The rehearsal paid off for the performance.

I recommend everyone practice falling. It will pay off eventually.

Yep, those would be the lessons. Mostly.

Those plus the fact that ice can fool you in that what you think is mostly bare pavement with good traction can, in fact, be pretty slick. This was not a black ice condition, but I expected more traction at that point than was actually available.

I do like the tires most days though. They are my first set of studded tires and they are two of my favourite things ever. But no tire is going to be ideal under the many and varied conditions one encounters in winter. These tires are at their best on hard frozen snow pack. They are OK on ice. They have no float when things start to get soft. They are heavy pushing on dry pavement. Fortunately - hard frozen packed snow is my most common winter condition here. For my next set of winter tires though, I think I will opt for wider tires with more studs on the sides of the tread.

That, ... or a fat bike ...

With studded tires you won't know when you ride over black ice except when the sound of the studs changes. That is, of course, as long as you don't try to ride fast around corners on ice.

As for pedals/foot retention, there's at least 2 other threads about this. Why bring your arguments into this one too?

Pedals/foot retention in a context of black ice can be different to the one without black ice as in the black ice case chances are that there will be no warning. It isn't like coming to a stop or hitting a vehicle where you have time to see it coming even if it is in the 100 of ms range. Your wheel may slip with little to no warning. Therefore talking about it here isn't redundant with other thread since the context is different in my opinion but there is plenty of things to talk about on this subject.

Some people might find the term offensive.

The fact that with black ice, you are generally on the ground before you realize it, makes pedal selection out of scope.

I didn't fell on ice 3 times the last 2 winters so it seems relevant even more since you have even less time to react so tiny differences between systems becomes even more relevant. That's when you push things to the limit that differences usually emerge be it in mathematics in order to define a function, looking at black holes to understand the universe or knowing what the limits of a F1 engine are.

On ice because it can happens fast and without any warning, your bike usually falls before you realize that your bike is falling. With clipless your feet are still attached to the pedals before you start reacting, on platforms your feet are free to move in all but one direction therefore can lose contact or not with pedals before you realize your bike is falling. Since we're talking falling on ice chances are that your bike will fall on one side or the other. Therefore, one pedal may go up and one may go down so chances are that you may start losing contact with one pedal while increasing contact with the other one because of inertia while the bike is slipping. At this time platforms offer the advantage to not contribute to you rotating contrary to clipless. While falling your body gather energy before the reaction occurs. Then comes the reaction...At this time on platforms you have the option to move your feet in nearly all directions while with clipless you need to unclip unless it is a relatively violent falls that make you unclip automatically.
You can guess it from this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxpB1TszKME


It seems that there is so many variables to black ice forming that i don't think there is a way to predict where and when black ice is going to form.
I've noticed though that there is usually more black ice in small unplowed streets than in wide busy streets and along where cars usually park.
That's usually a dilemma for me. Small and slippy streets with just few cars passing or ice free (for the most part) but wide and busy streets.

Riding on ice, or any slippery surface, one should turn while keeping the bike straight up. However studs up on the sides of the tread are important, like when riding straight over refrozen foot prints in the ice. The pressure should also be as low as you can without getting pinch flats. But, still keep the bike upright at all times. The big ruts and holes will be slightly better with studs on the outside edge of the tread. When I go over 3" foot prints, or worse, I have about 15 psi in the front and about 20 in the back. 26 x 2.35 tires.

That was a lot of words and silly handwaving to say that you agree. :)

Bike falls not the cyclist. We don't fall on the ground every time our bike falls. Therefore there must be something that prevent people from ending up on the ground. Reaction maybe?

Usually the cyclist ends up on the ground with the bike, but occasionally not. Happens regardless of the pedal type. If you think platforms help, now would be the time for some data to back you up.

It's your contention that it takes longer to get out of clipless pedals. It's not true for someone who knows how to use them.

I was going to ask you the same thing it is all hypothesis and opinion. I couldn't find a video of an unexpected fall on ice on youtube. To set things straight or at least understand better the process. :)

I was looking at same tire, probably the one I'll end up with, if it fits.

The crazy thing, is that I was riding over black ice that was in the process of freezing so I thoight the whole path was just going to be that odd crunchy clear ice that is more dangerous looking that it really is. The ice had a rippling pattern to it, like really old glass windows. Was so strange!

Hey! Good to see you posting!! Hope your recovery is coming along quickly and completely! Ugh, ice on corners is the worst. The kind we get here is usually due to sloppy plow jobs & then freeze/thaw in the compacted snow. Thankfully there is usually some kinda visual cue like a snow pile so I can slow and swing a bit wide to avoid it. Sometimes I gotta stop and walk it if it's a narrow lane with a large batch protruding from the curb.

I've had a few of those moments where I couldn't see a good ending but somehow made it through. Potholes and by that I mean DOT mine shafts to China in heavy traffic with snow filling the shoulder has been involved frequently.

What I've done is slam on the brakes then try to stay upright to get my brain in "control recovery" mode on snowy or potentially icy/slushy rides. Helps loads.

- Andy

Were you in traffic or MUP? Were you in a turn or just going straight?

When I was preparing for the winter, the first thing I thought of was getting winter tires. First it was winter treads for my 27in road bike, then studded 26in tires for my son’s mountain bike.