SE doesn't have disc brake mounts on the fork so you can't use discs, unless you change to a different fork which has a disk brake mount.

Something to consider.

- Andy

thanks for this thread. i haven't had an incident yet and hubs and i have decided not to ride if there's too much snow/water/slush in too cold temps. have thought about getting studded tires as a friend uses them out in denver for commuting. maybe next winter...

The off-season is the best time to buy them. :thumb:

My biggest concern about black ice, which is a few days a year phenomenon here, is what if i judge wrong and go out with only slightly knobby tires only to crash 10 minutes into my ride? That is probably the biggest single factor in my decision to get a dedicated bike for these rides which can also be used year round with normal tread tires. I understand some people have a "winter bike" and their dry ride bike is not used in rain or snow etc, but i cant justify sidelining my uptown (a really, really wonderful thing to ride and have) all winter. So enter my winter plan: second year round/winter storm bike, and some minor changes to the uptown to make it better in plain snow.

Anyone else buy a bike just to handle black icy days, or do what i'm planning to do?

- Andy

It's seem like quite a number of people in these forums have a bike for every day of the week if not more. So I'm sure there are folks that have multiple bikes they'll use in the winter depending on conditions or mood. ;)

I live in a different climate and for most of a typical winter I'll encounter some ice or some snow even if the roads are predominantly clear. So I ride the winter bike all the time from the first big snow of the year into March and sometimes April. I might be fine without the studded tires on several of the days but I don't want to expose more than one bike to the salt and crud that comes with winter riding. It adds a lot of extra maintenance.

A "dry" bike is something I don't have. Any bike I own will get ridden in the rain.

The question I'd have for you is whether it's really worth getting studded tires for the few days a year that you'd intend to use them. It sounds like you have some other ambitious plans for your bikes and you could save some cash by forgoing the studded tires and taking the bus on icy days instead.

I have a nicer winter bike now but for many years the studded tires were worth more than the bikes I had them on. They're not cheap. If you are going to buy them though, in the next few weeks is when you can find some deals.

Taking the bus? The bus here goes through town, pretty useless for me unless I'm going outside of town.

- Andy

I have 2 dedicated winter commuters, studded tires stay on all year. The rockhopper has 26 x1.95 nokian mount and grounds for really nasty conditions. Like slush, lots of snow and rutted, icy MUP's. This also has a front sus fork and disc brakes, awesome in the New England Tundra. The Fuji has 700 x 35 mm nokian with drop bars and a 1x8 drivetrain for less severe conditions.

A simple change to a bike you like to ride is add/remove a studded tire on the front wheel. I've done this in the past. I know have two winter bikes, one for ice (studded tire MTB) and one for snow (fatbike). I saw this great price on a studded tire today and wanted to share - Nokian Hakkapeliitta 72 Studs 700x32 - Freewheel Bike Shop - Minneapolis - Twin Cities - St. Paul

Other winter bikers in Minneapolis suggested front-only studded tire, for commuting you want the grip on the front wheel for stopping and steering. The only issue with the rear wheel is you can spin out at a start and slip into ruts. I find both of this rear wheel issues easy to deal with, rarely gone done because my rear wheel slipped out. I have gone down, hard, when my front slips out.

I have tried many combinations and for the ice bike, I have a Nokia Mount & Ground on the front and Conti Top Contact Winter on the rear. This combo has kept me on my bike in a wide variety of icy conditions.

The main reason I have dedicated winter bikes is two-fold, I can have a lot of bikes (lots of storage space) and I'm kinda busy (I don't always have time to change tires on a days notice). ... or maybe I'm just lazy. My bike commuting buddy puts studded tires on his LHT after the first snow and leaves them on until the snow/ice is all melted in the spring. I've thought out this for my Kona, but like I said, I have the space to keep old bikes.... Now I'm just rambling.

Hm, interesting. I'm not opposed to the idea of studded tires on the uptown. That said, the bike unloaded all ready weighs 36 lbs. Adding more weight is something I am kind of opposed to, as it affects handling and pedal effort.

My thinking on the SE, is that it has a coaster brake, so it's all ready half way "all weather". Just add drum dyno hub in front, lights, fenders, and rack, and I'll probably still be well below the weight of the uptown, especially seeing as a drum dyno hub, will likely go on the uptown as well as a few other bits & bobs.

The SE is 700c on top of all that, which makes it handle a bit more responsively and better leverage.

- Andy

Freewheel has had 2 for 1 sales on their studded tires in the Spring before. That might be in store only though. The particular tire that they're closing out is one I'm not particularly fond of. Not enough studs. I think they're the only studded tires I've ever used that I crashed on ice with. However, I'm willing to entertain the notion that I'm klutzier than most.

Aren't you thinking of below zero Celsius, not Fahrenheit? And how does the hot exhaust move downward to the pavement? In my experience hot air rises and, when it's really cold, water vapour instantly crystallizes or just vanishes.

In fact, when it's really cold -- like it is in midwinter Winnipeg -- my experience is that black ice was not a problem as there is no water around to form ice though a layer of packed snow can be very slippery. Black ice seems to more of a problem in Toronto where temperatures often flirt with the freezing mark (32F 0C) as there can be water lying about that freezes in a sheet when the temperature drops below freezing. It looks just like water and can be a surprise.

Anyhow, I see you're from Minneapolis and would have thought we had similar experiences but apparently not.

My wife and I headed out on an MUP last January and were very slowly and carefully and studlessly picking our way over areas of "white ice." We were fine until we hit an area where the path sloped down a bit toward the river and then it was an instant unavoidable crash. In fact, I started sliding down toward the water and was relieved when I stopped. It was hard to stand up -- too slippery and not flat -- and hard to shuffle back to dry land. The good thing about ice is that you slide on it when you fall and that, along with layers of clothing, mitigates a lot of injury. Just ask any hockey player.

I'd like to be able to ride in the winter so it's time to buy some studded tires.

30-40F is the black ice sweet spot (keeping in mind most thermometers are a few feet above the ground so measuring warmer temp than the ground itself)

Air temp is less critical than ground or pavement temp in black ice formation. There are many ways black ice can occur, including vapor deposition (ie. dew) melt/refreeze, etc.

As far as car exhaust is concerned, the exhaust doesn't have to reach the pavement. As the exhaust hits the cold air, the vapor in it condenses (why we see the "steam") and settles on the road surface. The process is nearly identical to dew formation which causes major black ice issues in places like the Plain of Venice. It's also the same basic process that causes skiers to form ice beards.

So there's one label that can describe many similar problems. What makes it Black Ice isn't how it forms, but the fact that it's thin and just about invisible, so there's no warning before you're on it.

BTW - you get the most black ice when air temps are near o slightly above freezing, and the pavement is well below freezing.

I expect that's why we rarely if ever saw black ice in Winnipeg though it's a phenomenon in the East. Prairie air temperatures are too cold -- rarely hovering around freezing -- and the air is too dry. If water vapour precipitates (i.e. if the air can't hold the water vapour at that temperature) the precipitate freezes in the air and turns directly to ice crystals.

Your point is taken that moisture-laden air (whatever the source of the moisture and more likely natural moisture than exhaust), just-above-freezing air will deposit the moisture on colder surfaces. Hence "bridge ices" signs. Those 32F/0C temperatures lead to treacherous conditions.

And I just picked up my 45nrth Gravdal studded tires so bring on the ice.

And here's what happens when it's way below freezing: Nunavut tea toss photo at -40 C proves internet gold - North - CBC News

I've done that with just hot water but I don't have the eye for photography that this guy does. It makes a cool sound too.

Anyone heard from the OP, TransitBiker lately?

First, air temperature is just a critical as ground temperature in the formation of ice. Seldom will the ground be cold enough to form ice if the air blanketing it is above the freezing point of water...mostly because the water in the air is above the freezing point of water. Any water deposited on a cold surface is going to give up its heat to the surface warming the very top layers enough that surface where freezing can occur will quickly warm above the freezing point.

Well the "exhaust" from an internal combustion engine is composed of water and carbon dioxide. If the engine is running poorly, it may have a bit of unburned hydrocarbon in it...not likely in the age of catalytic converters...and, if it is starved for air, a bit of carbon monoxide...again not likely in the catalytic converter age. It will also have some oxides of nitrogen in it, although, again, that is handled by modern catalytic converters. Of the possible components of car exhaust...carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, unburned hydrocarbons and water...only water has any possible chance of condensing at temperatures experienced on the inhabited bits of Earth. Unburned hydrocarbons might condense out of the air if they were there quantities several fold higher than possible with even a poorly tuned IC engine and if the temperature was extremely cold. Even then, it is unlikely that hydrocarbons would form a visible cloud that water vapor does when it condenses.

The only component of a car's exhaust that can condense is the water vapor and, due to the properties of water and hydrogen bonding, form "clouds" that are visible. But, as I pointed out post 156 above, even if every last drop of water could be wrung out of a car's exhaust...which is impossible...there isn't enough water in car's exhaust (or even hundreds of car's exhausts) to cause icing. Yes, the water condenses out of the exhaust and some of it reaches the ground but most of it is going to be mixed with other air. If there is sufficient water in the air over the pavement or ground, it can condense out an form black ice (which is really just clear and colorless) on the road surface but the water vapor in car exhaust is going to be an insignificant contribution to the process.

I have little problem with the formation of "black ice" nor explanations on how it forms (with the exception of the idea that car exhaust contributes much to the issue). However to state that "there's no warning before you're on it" is just wrong. Americans over use the term. "I was just driving along when all of a sudden I hit a patch of black ice! No one could have predicted that it was there," is a very common statement...or I should say a very common excuse. "Black ice" doesn't magically appear. The conditions for its formation are very well known. Fog, drizzle, freezing drizzle, etc. all can form "black ice". People who claim they never saw it just aren't being very observant. Every time I've crashed on ice...and I've crashed on a lot of "black ice", I knew it was there or, at least, should have known it was there. It forms from melt water or from freezing drizzle or from a municipality not fixing a water main leak for around 15 years but it always comes with a warning. If I see water on the ground and the air temperature is below freezing and the ground has been cold for a few days, that's a "warning". Or if I'm driving my car and the temperature is below freezing and the road looks wet, that's a warning. Anything else is just an excuse for being unobservant.

I disagree...big surprise:rolleyes:. In many decades of observing weather, I seen "black ice" on roads when the roads are warm (very common for Denver) and the air temperatures drop suddenly during a cold front. I've seen "black ice" during freezing drizzle storms in the spring when the roads are warmer here. I've seen "black ice" form during a snowstorm when the roads are still warm but the snow is melting and freezing. I've seen "black ice" following snow storms when the snow melts and runs across the road and refreezes at night when the air temperature drops. Sometimes it forms when the pavement is cold but, from my experience, it's just a likely to form when the roads are warm but are being cooled by an atmospheric event.

Took a Shuttle van to the PDX VA Hospital the 22nd Rest Area stop on top of US26 , stepped out onto a thin transparent sheet if Ice ..

Promptly fell on my Butt.. the others took note , and got out much more carefully.. this may be my next Purchase .. ICEtrekkers Diamond Grip Traction | Free Shipping at L.L.Bean

Im OK On the bike with Suomi Nokian Finland Made Studded tires , its Off the bike trying to walk that can get sketchy.
when the sidewalks are covered with Ice ..

At Sealevel , near the Ocean Its not as regular an occurrence as the Upper Mid west ..

this is an old 8 page thread, so I'm not reading back through it. Anyone post Key and Peele in it yet?

The ground being cold enough to freeze water while the air temperature is above (sometimes well above) freezing is a regular occurrence in the midwest, the upper great plains, and the northeast. Maybe that's not how the weather is where you are, but it happens a lot elsewhere. Condensation isn't an issue, because the dew point can stay well below freezing even when the air temperature is 50F.

But you made some assumptions in that post that weren't true. The black ice you get from exhaust in extreme cold isn't anywhere near 3 mm thick. It's extremely thin. It also doesn't form on horizontal surfaces, it's on the streets, typically in patches around intersections and not on the sidewalks nearby even. So the amount of water required is much much much less than what you're imagining. It doesn't happen at 20° or 30°, it happens at -20° or -30°, - temps you probably don't see often in Denver. Boiling water will freeze instantly when thrown in the air under those conditions.

It's not that hard to believe when you think about it. At those temps the exhaust from my own face will produce quite a bit of ice on the stuff around it, often including (unfortunately) the inside surface of the lenses of my goggles.

I'm not sure you understand dew point. The dew point can be well below freezing when the air temperature is warm if the relative humidity (RH) is low. For example, Denver experiences 12% relative humidity (often far less) and 50°F temperatures quite frequently. The dew point under those conditions is -1°F. That means that the temperature of the air has to drop to -1°F without a change in the barometric pressure before dew (or frost at that temperature) will start to form. At 100% RH, dew will start to form at 50°F.

Condensation, by the way, is entirely the issue. You can't form ice if you don't "condense" it from the water in the air. My point during all of this discussion is that the conditions for the formation of ice on the roads are well known and aren't magical. Even if the ground is cold enough to form ice, the air above the ground has to contain water and is usually visible in the form of fog or drizzle or some other form of moisture. To say "I hit a patch of black ice unexpectedly" is simply an excuse for not paying attention to the conditions. Look at the video in post 68, for example. Can you really say that Hypnotoad hit the ice "unexpectedly"? The road is looks wet. He has just ridden through a patch of snow pack and the surrounding ground is covered in snow. What is "unexpected" about finding the roads covered with ice?

How thick do you think 3mm is? It is "extremely" thin. It is 0.11". In my book that is "extremely thin".

We've also been through this "black ice forming from car exhaust" before. To recap: Well, see post 138. Simply put, the science just isn't on your side.

I'm amazed that people find throwing a cup of hot water (sorry but it isn't "boiling" by the time the reporters throw it) into very cold air is "surprising". The water has a lot of heat in it and it is suddenly dispersed and the droplets freeze. Big whoop.

When I think about it, it is that hard to believe...that's my point. Think about the ice formation around your face. I get ice forming on my mustache and maybe a bit on my balaclava when I wear one. That's about all. There's no ice on my handlebars or frame from my breath. On a per minute basis (resting), a human breaths out 0.27 g of water. That's more than a car puts out on the same basis. If, like you propose, a car's exhaust can be responsible for "black ice", you should see ice all over your bicycle from your breath. There's more of it and there is less mixing. Bicyclists aren't terribly aerodynamic but we are also moving slower and have less volume so we are stirring the air around us less.

As for the fogging of you goggles, that's just dew point. You raised the dew point in inside the goggles and lowered the temperature of the goggles to the point where the air can't hold the water anymore. It condenses out and deposits on the cold surface. If you remove the goggles, the air inside mixes with drier air outside and the fog goes away.

Edit: Today is kind of cold here and I was observing something that should dispel the "car exhaust condensing and causing black ice" thing. Take a look at the chimney of a house. The house isn't moving so any exhaust from the chimney doesn't mix as well as a car's exhaust does. The chimney of a house is also more insulated than a car's exhaust so the bricks or metal around the chimney will be closer to the outside temperature. Do you see ice forming on house chimneys? I can't say that I ever have even in the coldest of temperatures. If "black ice" can form from car exhaust, you should see vast deposits of ice around the tops of chimneys or on the roofs of houses. They are a stationary, and nearly constant, source of water vapor.