Correctamondo.

It's ice. Really easily defined.

In my opinion it definitely makes sense to just swap the tires twice a year between regular rubber and studded.

The only situation I think that keeping a spare wheel around for is if you're just to to swap the front wheel, your bike has rim brakes, and most likely no dynamo hub.

Otherwise swapping wheelsets - I mean I'd have to write a huge essay no one would read that would be based on opinion, but in my opinion there are to many factors against swapping a whole wheelset to make it worthwhile. If you need to swap back and forth, buy a second bike. Swapping the rear wheel starts to incur substantial time. If you have disc brakes the disc brakes need to be readjusted. If your rear cassette starts to get worn on one then swapping to the other will result in your chain wearing quicker. A lot of times on my bikes I've owned taking wheels off an putting them on again causes some minor annoying brake or rubbing issues or other small annoying issues. If space is an issue a folding bike doesn't take up that much more space than two wheels.

In my limited experience, I do not think that swapping two whole wheelsets can be done "quickly" with most bikes. Your situation sounds even more complicated - I would think changing tires would take no more time than doing all the work with 2 wheelsets.

So that's why I think what's best most of the time is:
1. 2 bikes if you have the space
2. Choosing a studded tire who's stud contact with the ground can be changed by putting more or less air in the tire.

If you had rim brakes and no dynamo, and you're just trying to avoid suddenly forming ice, swapping a front wheel back and forth might be worth it, but it doesn't sound like that's your situation.

My post was trying to offer suggestions on what studded tires are available and might work the best for #2 , without needing to change wheels.

I'd swap dyno for drum dyno on front, and n360 for internal 8 with coaster. No external brakes, no external drive gears, would have a chain case.

If I did the SE tripel as a dual season, id get 2 sets of tires aside from OEM, one knobby and one studded. I'd get fenders (probably the same I have on the uptown) plus a dyno hub on front and lights.

We'll see what happens. Gotta get the Tripel first.... ;)

- Andy

One MTB with always studs, one without, makes it pretty easy for me.

It simply doesn't get icy here often enough to justify a whole bike with studded tires, wouldn't get much use. We get maybe one or two storms /days a year that produce black or pervasive ice in enough quantity to even question riding. That was one day, tonight seems like another one, with the secondary roads basically one big sheet of ice. However with tonight one plow truck pass should clear all the residential streets off the main roads. It's cruncy ice/slush from the snow that fell, with sleet & freezing rain glaze on top.

- Andy

This is what most of the residential roads look like right now:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps7g1pa0hd.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...psi8hqpa5t.jpg

It isn't solid, there is a bit of snow (or snow remnant?) underneath, but the height of that bit underneath is like 1/8th inch and in a few spots its pure ice but very granular in the tire tread marks. I liken it to a graham-*******-pie-crust kind of ice. now on the other hand, some of the ice on solid surfaces like car windows etc is pure frozen rain coating with the signature multitude of icicles hanging off.

I would use studded tires on this, but it happens so rarely, and is salted/plowed so quickly in most instances that it isnt remotely a responsible purchase to ride a few hours a year, especially when i can wait till the plow comes and clears it from pretty much every street in town by sunrise.

- Andy

But, how else can I justify having another bike? Are you saying I don't need more bikes ??? Keep reality and responsible purchasing out of this please. :):D

I'll preface this by saying that I hate using studs. They are heavy and slow and useless...except in conditions exactly like the ones you show. I know they are expensive and you may not use them that often but if you want to ride on those kinds of roads with any degree of confidence, they are worth the investment. Personally, I resisted owning a set for many, many years and have suffered my share of crashes. I've been using them on one of my bikes when conditions get bad for the last couple of years and find them to work as advertised. I still don't like riding them but they do work.

You could just purchase the tires and change them when it snows (cheapest but most inconvenient option), buy a set of wheels and change the wheels when it snows (next cheapest and slightly more convenient option) or get a dedicated bike (most expensive but most convenient option). Otherwise, you can ride without them and risk a crash or find another form of transportation until the roads are clear. It depends on how important riding a bike is to you.

I live in a place where having a dedicated winter bike, with studded tyres, makes perfect sense.

Only one?

I think I remember your home made studded tire. They can have the studs touch the ground or not depending on pressure. Was that you?

We have been building studded tyres here for decades, in most cases an off camber stud lets you ride with minimal stud contact when you are going in a straight line and those studs will engage in turns to give needed traction. In really craptastic weather dropping the tyre pressure a little brings the studs into continuous engagement.

These tyres wear extremely well and ride well on smooth clear roads since you are not continuously engaging the studs... tyres like the Marathon Winter suffer from premature wear on the central row of studs when they spend too much time on clear roads.

For some applications a double row of studs is useful if you need more traction... my Extrabike uses a rear with a central row of studs since it is easy to spin out on ice and if you pull a trailer in the winter this extra row of studs helps with traction and braking.

I have three winter bikes with studded tyres and my wife's bicycle is set up with a set of Marathon Winters, I also have a few spare front wheels with studded tyres that I could swap in to other bicycles for my own use for for folks who want to test them out. My 15 year old daughter and my wife also like to use my Raleigh 20 in the winter as it is stable and fun.

The icebike has Nokian 296 Extremes and rolls well on clear roads but is really set up for conditions where the roads are completely glazed with ice and where other tyres will still slip, including Marathon Winter tyres and my Schwalbe Snow Studs.

I was given a set of Snow studs and the Nokians this winter as well and was given a set of Marathon winter tyres for my Raleigh 20 a few years ago... a good number of my self studded tyres were given away through our co-op and to friends.

I concur.

I just about went nuts with having to change tires frequently due to slick conditions as a result of snow/ice, then thawing to clear roads, then back to slick, and so forth. I got this a lot in Great Falls where the Chinook winds (some say it means "snow eater") would clear things up rather quickly after a snow event. My winter bike was a fixed gear, so I found it much easier to have 2 sets of wheels, one with studded snow tires and one without. Since that bike is pretty simple -- no hub dynamo, no IGH and no cog set-- it was not expensive. That made changing in the early morning prior to work much quicker, when I needed it due to time constraints.

Now I live on the other side of the Rockies where we don't get the Chinook winds, so I've changed things up a bit. I now have a mountain bike that is fun to ride off road when conditions/daylight allow. In the winter, I just put studded snow tires on and use that bike when conditions dictate. So it is not literally a dedicated winter bike, but a dedicated foul winter conditions bike.

Otherwise I ride a road bike that may or may not have studded tires.

The vast majority of my (and I'd wager most people's) winter riding is on clear, dry roads. It's the unanticipated icy patches that you can't ride around where they prove their worth. ("Isn't...responsible" is a strange description for bicycle tires that last a really long time and at worst, slow you down a little. It's too bad you're not riding 559mm wheels, or I'd offer you a killer deal on some like-new Kenda Klondikes in that size. :thumb: )

Just came back from my "night" ride...A lot of snow on the sidewalks and the grass, but roads are generally black. It was just above freezing point today, so a lot of water all around.

Here how it went...wet, wet, dry, wet, wet, snow, wet, wet, F@$*, sh#@!

All I know I have loose headset, but I will deal with it tomorrow. It was kind of hard/soft landing, so not a biggie. It all happened at 2.1 mph... :p

Clear dry roads? I wish. Try snowy foot paths, rutted MUP's with frozen footprints and bike tracks. The Minute Man bike path does get plowed, then it leaves a nice flat 1/2" of packed snow, ice & slush to pedal on. Changes on a daily basis. Roads are sometimes dry, icy, snow slush covered, brown snot, mashed potatoes snow. Take your pick, by the town and day it changes. Boston has lots of snow and plenty of freeze thaw. Clear and dry, maybe Memorial day this year :) We have had 110" of snow this year, more to follow.

I ride a bit over two miles on main thoroughfares with posted speeds ranging from 25 to 45 mph, so speed is a tad important on those faster bits.... the faster youre going the easier it is for traffic going the same direction to avoid you etc. I am thinking SE tripel with a sturdy full time drum/dyno front wheel and a set of studded tires to go on it in crap riding conditions would probably be my best option as i'm thinking about things more dynamically. If i get the ASI rack & fenders and light system, it would be "plug and play" simply gotta figure out best way to hang the wires, as i do not believe those models have wire guides or holes for wiring up lights etc. They (ASI) seem pretty open to fitting my needs on two levels... one the staff there understanding what i'm trying to do and options insofar as having parts available that are useable between their 3 primary brands (such as the conductor fenders for dyno lights & tubular rack used on my uptown), and all i gotta do is select a shop to do all the ordering & assembly work. I'm actually really excited... i just hope my rims last another 18 months or i'll have to skip second bike for a while (probably 1-2 years after new rims).


Most of my winter riding on the new bike has been in snow/slush. I've gotten wise to black ice and was able to get across town to the store this morning around 0100 hours. Black ice was here and there, but nowhere i'd be normally riding. The big issue that trip was potholes that i nickname DOT tunnels to china which are large, deep, and to be avoided at all costs as it would probably damage a wheel (or some other thing i cant afford to fix :P ).

However yea, i'm probably going to be getting studded tires for my birthday & the SE maybe november if all goes to plan if not sooner if some other stuff i've been waiting a while for comes through.

- Andy

A second set of wheels really only works well for a more conventional wheel set up. Once you start throwing generator hubs and/or drum brakes into the mix, things get complicated and expensive in a hurry. Even just changing the tires is slightly more complicated. I have a set of cheap wheels for my studded tires and I keep my good ones for better weather.

I would also say that once you go to a second bike, generator hubs and lights start adding a lot of expense. Battery lights really shine (:rolleyes:) when it comes to multiple bikes. The investment in the light system is roughly the same or even lower but you don't have to invest in 2 generator hub wheels and 2 light systems. This morning, for example, I went out to my garage and pulled the studded tired bike off the wall, took the lights off the last bike I rode to work and was out the door in less than 2 minutes. I have at least 5 bikes that I choose from to ride to work and swapping lights from one bike to another is trivial. And, at roughly $25 for each light head, cheap.

It may not be as convenient but if funds are a problem, battery lights can save you a lot of money towards that second bike.

Looks like the street in front of my house... :)

Only studs would have saved me.

I am never doing battery lights ever again. The headlamp on the uptown is like 4x my old battery light and that one was not a brand x piece of crap and i used it for many years and loved it. The SE has a fine front wheel, so after more thought, i'd probably just do the dyno brake hub with same rim and new spokes. Then i'd have a second set of tires for winter riding. Since the SE all ready has a rear coaster brake and the 3 speed hub, it'll all be enclosed and all i'd need to winterize it fully is a chaincase. Basically if my uptown is the pickup truck with all season tires, the SE would be my manual shift hatchback with all season and winter tires. When i'm done both will have rack, both will have fenders, both will have dyno lights, both will have internal rear hubs, and both will be used to minimize wear on one.

The SE will get the added front brake because it will be the one getting the winter/studded tires on. Does that make more sense to you now? Putting studded or simply more grippy treaded tires on a v brake wheel makes no sense to me, as it can get iced up (and has). So hopefully now you understand my reasoning behind not only the dyno drum brake but the plan for if/when i get the SE. It isn't just to have a second bike, it's to have a bike which is more capable and simpler and lighter than the uptown especially on icy/snowpacked days.

Another thing is that my uptown's dyno hub is making noises ive been told it shouldn't be, so it may need replacing...... if it is replaced why not just replace it with a hub that has a brake in it, that way if the v brake ices up i can still stop without grinding the rim into dust.


It is very strange here, just one day of sun and anything we get is pretty much melted by the next sundown. Thursday we got 10 inches, everything was closed schools etc before it even started to snow, then friday a lot of stuff was closed again, and only after putting salt down and getting sun on the paved parts is it now clear and dry.

- Andy

First, there is no need to get testy. You have mentioned many times how strapped you are for funds. Generator lights and the associated equipment cost a whole lot more than battery lights and having to equip multiple bikes increases that cost by the number of bikes you have. At, roughly, $200 per generator set up, that's a lot of money to have invested in one bike. It's a whole lot to have invested in two bikes if you are short on funds. It's your money but you are also the one who complains about not having money.

Additionally, the lights I was suggesting aren't "piece[s] of crap". My current lights have been working flawlessly for 3 winters now. Not a bad deal for $90 (3 x $30).

No, it doesn't make sense to me. But it makes sense to you. A v-brake (or any rim brake) has been perfectly serviceable for me through 35 winter commutes and I've never had a problem with them icing up...even in 10"+ of snow. But you do what you think is best for you. I'm not trying to stop you but I am trying to present you with alternatives that won't cost you as much. Excuse me for trying to help.

So now you are going to need three dyno wheels? That's the major part of the cost of a generator system.

I'm also confused. Are you going to run some kind of dual brake system so that you have a drum brake and a v-brake? Dual cable systems for brakes with different leverages are difficult to set up. It can be done but braking is going to be limited by the weakest brake. It would be better to pick one or the other. You don't really need both.

Sun is higher in the sky and the days are longer than in December or January. On a sunny day this time of year snow will melt even if the temp is only the 20s.

The sun makes a big difference. I can remember this deep wooded gulch I used to run by in college. Even in early May there would sometimes be snow left near the bottom because it almost never got any sun.

Right about that. Even in February in single digits at before 8 AM with sun low, I was able to feel a tinge of warmth when stopped at a light.

1. Not testy.
2. I was talking about my own previous battery light.
3. If im to be riding in ice and snow, i need to know i can slow and stop at any time.
4. The SE would need to be set up for winter riding if need be, and that costs money i'm willing to spend
5. No need to get all emotional.
6. The one i have now on the uptown may need replacing, in replacing it, i'd replace it with a dyno hub with a brake in it.
7. Not on the SE, it would be coaster rear (as stock) and drum front (add on).
8. The uptown has enough handlebar space for me to locate the front drum brake lever on the left (front) side.

Tripel: add drum/dyno front hub, stock rim, set of stock tires and add set of winter/studded tires, add front and rear light (the law here), add rack, add fenders, keep stock 3 speed internal hub with integrated coaster brake on rear, add chaincase.

Uptown: Stock except new drum/dyno front hub. The current dynohub is making a lot of noise, which ive been told isn't normal, so i'd simply swap out for the brake/dyno. Mount lever *** grip style on the left side to compliment the v brake OR simply remove the v brake and just use drum OR move the v brake to secondary position where i would have put the drum brake lever. Second set of tires that can handle snow (not studded).

I'm not worried about the cost of outfitting the tripel, because the whole purpose of getting the tripel is to have a bike that i can fully rely on all winter long for those rides that can't wait. Everything enclosed, front brake in case chain hops off AND increased stopping power, plus power for lights. It's the perfect foundation.... the uptown is simply a different bike and i don't want to put studded tires on it, because it's all ready a 36 lb tank... the tripel is 10 lbs lighter.......

Hope that clears things up. :)

- Andy

Just out of curiosity, do they apply sand/small gravel where you are when it is icy or snowy like they do around here?

I ask because what I experience is that, when it gets wet, the grit can get stuck to my rim brakes. Then, when I apply the brake, it embeds small particles in the brake and undermines the braking effectiveness and also wears away at the rim.

I am currently planning to get a new bike and to have disk brakes for it to try to circumvent this issue.

Your circumstances may be different than mine, even if they do a similar road treatment, if you have a way to avoid the roads. Or, maybe you just live with it? More than half of my commute is on the shoulder of a state highway, where the stuff gets thrown by the vehicle traffic, so there is no avoiding the sandy, gritty mess.

10 inches of dry powder snow is nothing and will not ice up your rims...Freezing drizzle, heavy wet snow, slush on the roads coupled with below freezing temps will ice up rims very quickly and compromise braking performance. Here in my area there is tons of salt and grit on the roads, every time you squeeze those rim brakes it's like taking a grinding disk to your rim, that stuff is extremely abrasive and will wear down rims very quickly.

Disk brakes have saved me a couple thousand in new rims.

I agree about disc brakes, I have some bikes set up with them and they are great in winter time...Riding my fixed gear has also saved my rims, I just stop using my drivetrain, no need to squeeze the brakes.

If disc can fit with dyno hub on the SE i'll do that instead.

- Andy