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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Carbon to Ti frame.

Old 11-08-23, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
But you continued in your post the following:
"All of the other meaningful components on your bicycle will flex before the frame will, in the vertical plane. There is no subjectivity to the question, either, it is a simple matter of physical properties -- a double-triangle frame will not deflect vertically before:"
What else is a reasonable person to understand what you mean?
This is going to sound harsher than I intend, but there's really no other way to say it, at this point: Can you not read and comprehend English?

A reasonable person is to understand that a double-triangle frame will not deflect vertically before the items subsequently listed. If there are words in these sentences that you are struggling to understand, point them out, or refer to your handy dictionary.


Originally Posted by base2
You've tied yourself to this whole vertical compliance thing (which nobody denies, BTW)
Several people have insisted that they can feel a difference in the vertical compliance of various frames. Again, I am forced to ask, can you not read and comprehend English?

Originally Posted by base2
This would be sad if it wasn't so entertaining.
Perhaps this explains quite a bit, if you entertain yourself by acting ignorant of science, language, and the topic at hand. If this is all just an act on your part, feel free to grant yourself an intermission.
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Old 11-08-23, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Humans aren't all wired the same. My wife has a good bit more sensitive palate than mine when it comes to identifying flavors in wine, despite me having put more effort into attempting to educate myself in that area.
First off, much has been written about the inability of humans to differentiate between wines. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/front...taste-the-same is but one brief review on the topic, which is not germane to this forum. Wines are easy to double-blind test, in comparison to violins or bicycles, so that's been done repeatedly, and always with the same result -- random chance. Again, suffice it to say, many people suffer from delusions of grandeur with respect to their wine tasting ability, and the actual differences are quite often undetectable.

Second, you should have known this was a terrible example -- in point of fact, it does more to hurt your position than help it.

Third, fine, not all humans are wired the same. Find one who can detect bicycle frame material in a double-blind test.

Originally Posted by Eric F
You're not very good at guessing. I have never claimed to have any sensitivities about bicycles that aren't also shared with other people on this site, and other people I ride with. Some folks have shared their similar experiences in this thread. I'm nothing special at all.
Make up your mind. We've seen the evidence that even experts cannot make the distinctions that you and your wife claim to. We've also seen the evidence supporting the fact that those distinctions are, in-fact, impossible to detect. Either you are a special super couple, or you are not.
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Old 11-08-23, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
This is going to sound harsher than I intend, but there's really no other way to say it, at this point: Can you not read and comprehend English?

A reasonable person is to understand that a double-triangle frame will not deflect vertically before the items subsequently listed. If there are words in these sentences that you are struggling to understand, point them out, or refer to your handy dictionary.

Several people have insisted that they can feel a difference in the vertical compliance of various frames. Again, I am forced to ask, can you not read and comprehend English?

Perhaps this explains quite a bit, if you entertain yourself by acting ignorant of science, language, and the topic at hand. If this is all just an act on your part, feel free to grant yourself an intermission.
Awesome!! This from the guy (I mean that in a gender-neutral way) who has repeatedly misquoted, misinterpreted, exaggerated, and flat-out misunderstood what other people in this thread have posted. Your "I'm the smartest guy in the room" game is really poorly played. The entertainment value is worth the cost of admission, however.
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Old 11-08-23, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Awesome!! This from the guy (I mean that in a gender-neutral way) who has repeatedly misquoted, misinterpreted, exaggerated, and flat-out misunderstood what other people in this thread have posted. Your "I'm the smartest guy in the room" game is really poorly played. The entertainment value is worth the cost of admission, however.
If all that remains to you are pathetic ad hominem attacks, I guess you're all finished -- and not in a good way. Better luck next time.

Unless you want to explain how it is that both you and your wife possess extraordinary skills that have been proven impossible by every double-blind test. That's a quite a coincidence, isn't it. It's almost as though the only possible explanation for that claim is psychological, not biological.
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Old 11-08-23, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
If all that remains to you are pathetic ad hominem attacks, I guess you're all finished -- and not in a good way. Better luck next time.

Unless you want to explain how it is that both you and your wife possess extraordinary skills that have been proven impossible by every double-blind test. That's a quite a coincidence, isn't it. It's almost as though the only possible explanation for that claim is psychological, not biological.
Again, your lack of reading comprehension rears its head again!...and so does your propensity to exaggerate as a form of defense. I did not claim to have extraordinary skills. In fact, I stated that my skills were lesser than my wife's in that arena, despite my attempts to improve them (not really serious attempts, however). She's also better at identifying herbs and spices in food. I'm eagerly awaiting your next post about how herbs and spices don't exist.

Blind wine tasting competitions are a thing, including having a yearly world championship event. If it was nonsense, as you claim, they would not exist. Assuming it is all BS, that wasn't the point...but it doesn't surprise me that you missed it. For my wife and I, making the attempt to identify flavors we recognize is just entertainment in our enjoyment of the experience. I'm making no claims that she is extraordinary in any way, nor making any claims that what she identifies matches up with what anyone else is able to identify. It was just an example of how humans are wired differently, and their sensitivity to perceptions can vary widely.
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Old 11-08-23, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Wish I'd had known this before I rode with Gugie, 52Telecaster, Andy K and others a couple of summers ago. I'd have brought my harp!

(I have 3 amps, a sweet 12W, 12" custom tube that sounds wonderful in the living room but isn't up to the guitar amps. (Feedback.) A Roland solid state Blues Cube. Lighter, a lot more powerful, decent sound but still feedback challenged. And a Victoria. Last tube amp at a closeout sale. 1960s rock reverb. Heavy! But 3 10"s and 40W. Feedback free! Fully up to the guitars. And wonderful sound, if not quite classic blues. The piece that glues it all together is the Astatic mic that fits so well in my hand and that I have played through for more than 3 decades. I think it is part of the feedback challenge but when things are right - )
You're all set for amps and then some, obviously, but if you know anyone who wants to get a harp amp for as little money as possible, I suggest looking in thrift stores. I bought three '50's-era mono tape recorders some years ago for $15 each. Not only do they all have killer-sounding low-powered tube amps with a mic input that's easy to overdrive, one had an Art Deco-looking carbon mic (or, more properly for a '50's piece, "mike") with a frequency range about equal to a Mattel kid's walkie-talkie, perfect for that Little Walter sound. Two have external speaker jacks, too.
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Old 11-08-23, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
First off, much has been written about the inability of humans to differentiate between wines. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/front...taste-the-same is but one brief review on the topic, which is not germane to this forum. Wines are easy to double-blind test, in comparison to violins or bicycles, so that's been done repeatedly, and always with the same result -- random chance. Again, suffice it to say, many people suffer from delusions of grandeur with respect to their wine tasting ability, and the actual differences are quite often undetectable.

Second, you should have known this was a terrible example -- in point of fact, it does more to hurt your position than help it.

Third, fine, not all humans are wired the same. Find one who can detect bicycle frame material in a double-blind test.

Make up your mind. We've seen the evidence that even experts cannot make the distinctions that you and your wife claim to. We've also seen the evidence supporting the fact that those distinctions are, in-fact, impossible to detect. Either you are a special super couple, or you are not.
Are you an AI bot? The pattern of misinterpreting what people are saying, and then providing an argument and link to an article that is adjacent to the topic, but not quite on point, certainly fits AI bot behavior.
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Old 11-08-23, 09:57 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Again, your lack of reading comprehension rears its head again!...and so does your propensity to exaggerate as a form of defense. I did not claim to have extraordinary skills.
You made precisely that claim, when you alleged that you can detect the difference between various bicycle frame materials -- a feat that no one has accomplished in a blind test.
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Old 11-08-23, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Are you an AI bot?
No artificial ingredients, just honest-to-goodness real intelligence.

Originally Posted by Eric F
The pattern of misinterpreting what people are saying, and then providing an argument and link to an article that is adjacent to the topic, but not quite on point, certainly fits AI bot behavior.
You keep desperately resorting to this claim, sans any evidence. You used the alleged wine tasting skill of your wife as an example, did you not? And I provided you with evidence that even professional wine experts cannot distinguish red wine from white, in double-blind tests. What, precisely, was misinterpreted? Or did you just not enjoy, again, having your superstition disproven with evidence?

At some point soon, you are going to have to up your game from ad hominem attacks, by the way. If you've exhausted your argument completely, and have nothing else to contribute, just say so.
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Old 11-08-23, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
You made precisely that claim, when you alleged that you can detect the difference between various bicycle frame materials -- a feat that no one has accomplished in a blind test.
Please provide a linked quote from me where I made that claim. You canít, because I did not.

Here is what I actually saidÖ
Originally Posted by Eric F
As someone who has taken all of the parts from one bike, and put them on another, multiple times, my experiences is that there was definitely a difference I could perceive every time I made a change. How much was related to differences in geometry, and how much was frame material, I'm not able to tell you in a meaningful way.
Your pattern of exaggeration and misrepresentation continues. At this point, I can only assume itís intentional.

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Old 11-08-23, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
No artificial ingredients, just honest-to-goodness real intelligence.



You keep desperately resorting to this claim, sans any evidence. You used the alleged wine tasting skill of your wife as an example, did you not? And I provided you with evidence that even professional wine experts cannot distinguish red wine from white, in double-blind tests. What, precisely, was misinterpreted? Or did you just not enjoy, again, having your superstition disproven with evidence?

At some point soon, you are going to have to up your game from ad hominem attacks, by the way. If you've exhausted your argument completely, and have nothing else to contribute, just say so.
My mention of wine had nothing to do with blind tasting. Equating the practice of attempting to identify familiar flavors while enjoying a glass of wine to blind tasting is a misrepresentation. I made zero claims about the abilities of either my wife or I with regard to identifying types of wines in blind tasting, making the article you linked to regarding the accuracy of blind tasting is adjacent to the topic, and not actually relevant to what I was talking about. Your reading comprehension continues to be awful, and your attempts to poke holes in my statements are feeble.

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Old 11-09-23, 12:13 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Here is what I actually said…
And, you "actually said":

Originally Posted by Eric F
What you aren’t acknowledging - or are refusing to acknowledge - is that some people may be more sensitive to certain sensations than others. Some of it is related to having enough experience to have a frame of reference to recognize the differences.
...in reference to your ability to differentiate between frames.

And you said:

Originally Posted by Eric F
IMO, there are sometimes differences in things that people can detect, and sometimes only think they can detect. However, sometimes people develop a sensitivity/awareness to factors that other people aren't in tune with, and sometimes those people are told their awareness doesn't exist.
and

Originally Posted by Eric F
Meanwhile, those without the experience to perceive the differences may insist that differences do not exist, and bring "science" to prove it.
and

Originally Posted by Eric F
I have never claimed to have any sensitivities about bicycles that aren't also shared with other people on this site, and other people I ride with. Some folks have shared their similar experiences in this thread.
...which certainly sounds like you think you are one of those magically sensitive/aware people.

So, all that quoting aside, let's get down to brass tacks. Are you now claiming that you personally can or cannot detect different frame materials based on a bicycle's ride quality?

Originally Posted by Eric F
My mention of wine had nothing to do with blind tasting.
You are -- again -- failing to understand the point. If professional wine experts cannot even distinguish between red and white wines, then your wife is not able to pick out specific flavors more frequently than by random chance. Sure, I can taste a bottle and say "Ah, hints of vanilla" and have a ~30% chance of agreeing with the label, but that isn't meaningful -- it's random chance.

That is, of course, well off topic, so I'll leave you to your misguided beliefs about your wife's mouth and general misunderstandings of psychology. If you have anything to contribute on the actual topic at-hand, I might respond.

Last edited by TC1; 11-09-23 at 12:17 PM. Reason: deleted spurrious text
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Old 11-09-23, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
If you were even the slightest bit informed on the topic, and/or had even read that article, you might be aware that the science is vastly more widespread than you suggest -- not that it even needs to be, as one can confirm the findings in their own garage, if need be. But you'll probably insist on clamping your hands over your ears and wailing "I can't hear you", so I'll leave you to your delusions.
LOL. I recommend spending less time doing what you are currently doing and more time actually riding a bike. Try it, it is fun - unless it is a stiff Aluminum bike.
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Old 11-09-23, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vespasianus
LOL. I recommend spending less time doing what you are currently doing and more time actually riding a bike. Try it, it is fun - unless it is a stiff Aluminum bike.
Wrong target: I'm the one who prefers my aluminum bikes to my Columbus and Reynolds steel bikes (in a nutshell, the comfort, so-called, is the same and the aluminum bikes handle better, because science).

And, because there's been a distressing lack of digressions-within-digressions in this thread for nearly a day, I'll just note that my current favorite electric guitar is my Epiphone Moderne. Limited edition, bought mine new for about $500 a year ago, now listing on eBay and Reverb for $900 or so.


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Old 11-09-23, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
So, all that quoting aside, let's get down to brass tacks. Are you now claiming that you personally can or cannot detect different frame materials based on a bicycle's ride quality?
I NEVER said that I can detect ride quality differences related specifically frame materials based on what I feel when I ride. I can detect differences in how a bike reacts to input from me, and/or from the surface I'm riding over, compared to other bikes I'm significantly familiar with. As I said (again)...
Originally Posted by Eric F
How much was related to differences in geometry, and how much was frame material, I'm not able to tell you in a meaningful way.

During the time I have been on this site, and over the many years I've been riding bikes, numerous people have talked about differences they feel between one bike and another. Some of those people have commented in this thread. I don't think I have any kind of exceptional skills in this regard. It generally comes with the territory of having a lot of experience riding bikes (a frame of reference for comparison). That said, some people are more sensitive. Others are less so. Where I fit in that spectrum, I have no idea, and I don't care.


You continue to try to push this into an "Ah ha! I caught you." box that doesn't exist. It's making you look quite foolish.

Originally Posted by TC1
You are -- again -- failing to understand the point. If professional wine experts cannot even distinguish between red and white wines, then your wife is not able to pick out specific flavors more frequently than by random chance. Sure, I can taste a bottle and say "Ah, hints of vanilla" and have a ~30% chance of agreeing with the label, but that isn't meaningful -- it's random chance.

That is, of course, well off topic, so I'll leave you to your misguided beliefs about your wife's mouth and general misunderstandings of psychology. If you have anything to contribute on the actual topic at-hand, I might respond.
Very much on-topic with the issue you have fabricated...You are still attempting to relate two things that are not connected, no matter how much you want them to be. Your lack of personal experience and actual knowledge of the topic is speaking loudly, again. The blind tasting you're talking about is related to identifying varietal/region/vintage, etc., in a situation where the judges do not know what they are drinking, based only on their taste perceptions. Other blind tastings may include situations where the judges know the category they are drinking, and are making subjective determinations of preference guided by established standards for that category, very similar to a dog show. Neither of those scenarios is what I'm talking about, and really isn't related to the situation I described.

If I pour myself a glass of Sauvignon Blanc from the Marlborough region of New Zealand, and I recognize the taste of grapefruit among the various flavors, then that exists to me. Whether other people taste the same thing or not is irrelevant to my experience in that moment. However, it turns out that it is very common to recognize the flavors of grapefruit and other citrus flavors in Marlborough Sauv Blancs. My experience with multiple wines from that specific varietal and region are in line with what others have said. You may suggest that I taste grapefruit because that's what I expect from a Marlborough Sauv Blanc. Maybe, but another wine of the same varietal and region may surprise me by not being grapefruit forward, but rather lemongrass (or something else I wasn't expecting). Sometimes those surprises are pleasant. Sometimes not so much. My wife's preferred white is a specific California Pinot Grigio. When I drink it, I primarily recognize flavors of apples and pears (so does she). Sometimes I drink wines where there are flavors that are familiar, but I can't quite put my finger on what they are. My wife tends to be better at recognizing and identifying them that I am, which is SPECIFICALLY what I was talking about when I brought up the wine topic to begin with. Maybe her suggestion affects my perception, maybe not. For our purposes - and the point of this topic - it's irrelevant. Every once in a while we come across a wine that hits with flavors of bell peppers. During the time when I was enthusiastically educating myself about wines, I learned is that this is a commonly-found flavor that occurs when grapes are picked before they are properly ripened. It's a flavor that absolutely disgusts my wife, and I don't care for it much, either. It can happen in both reds and whites, and is certainly not something a wine-maker would put on the label because it's considered a flaw. More than a couple of times, I have poured bottles like that down the drain. FWIW, I can't recall the last time I drank a wine with tasting notes on the label. The current trend seems to be letting people decide for themselves whether or not it's something they like, and let them ponder on what they taste. Suggesting that people cannot taste different in flavors in wine, and it's all imaginary, equates with stating that people can't taste the difference between anything else they put in their mouths. To not understand this is a display of sheer ignorance.

You should really stop, but you probably won't. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about on this topic, but I fully expect you to exaggerate and misconstrue part of what I've said above, in your sad attempts to discredit my knowledge and experience (which isn't anything exceptional) with things you don't know much about. Go for it. I'm not sure what the point of this game is for you, but your nonsense is helping me burn though a boring day at the office. Oh, look - it's lunchtime!
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Old 11-09-23, 04:10 PM
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