speyfitter

I'm a tradesman who works for a school district in Canada. I am investigating the feasibility of using a e-bike fleet to supplement a vehicle fleet, for various reasons, to move Trades persons between school sites to do repair work. I am putting together some info on this for a presentation. I am a cyclist myself (don't own and haven't tried an ebike yet, but been doing lots of research on them the past month or so including visiting a few shops, gonna try one soon).

My solution is to use an ebike to tow a cargo trailer like the Surly Bill or Ted which would have plastic totes on it (waterproof) to carry tools, lunch, a few common spare parts, etc. Most parts would be picked up on demand from local suppliers or shipped to the site if they are bigger, when required. The arrangement has to be "commercial grade" if it's fair to say which is why I selected the Surly trailers as they are pretty over built and high quality and have some features that other cheaper trailers don't. These trailers would be towed 230+ days per year in all weather conditions, but in a relatively moderate climate for Canada.

The thinking of going with an ebike over a regular bike is for the following reasons:

1) To take the stress off of trades persons knees/body when pulling the trailer day after day, year after year (consider it health and safety mitigation if it's fair to say).
2) To increase efficiency by increasing the average effective speed in "smoothing" out the landscape if it's fair to say.

So I've been looking at off the shelf mid drive ebike options. I need a high quality commercial grade bike to pull the trailer. I can't see the weight of the trailer being more than say 100-125 pounds most days for most Tradesmen who would ride a bike.

My research has pointed me towards mid drive motors. They appear to be user friendly and well put together. The Bosch motors have come highly regarded but it appears as though a lot of off the shelf options have Shimano steps motors as well. I'm also looking at other things like quality brakes (Shimano hydraulic discs come highly regarded), bikes that come with decent tires stock like Schwalbe, fenders, racks, etc. So I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind...

1) I like to look at things like the "what if's" - what happens if the battery runs out of power on a Shimano steps and Bosch powered ebike (can't find anything in the manuals)? How do the bikes "act" - does the motor put appreciable drag on drive train?

2) Will Bosch/Shimano ebikes run without the batteries installed (I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was illegal in some countries)?

3) How come some Bosch ebikes come with a 15 t or 18 t chain ring while Shimanos often come with a 38 or 44 t chain ring yet they have the same or similar rear cassettes? In theory the 15 or 18 t chain ring would be better for gear reduction for towing at the expense of top end speed. What am I missing here?

4) What happens if the motor fails? Can you still ride the bike? Are there any situations where the motor failure would prevent riding the bike?

5) Any thoughts on specific bikes? I've always been partial to trek, they build a great non- ebike and didn't get to where they are for no reason, and seem to have a decent selection of ebikes that appear well built. The Kona Dew-E is another one that has garnered my attention as it has a decent component list to compliment the ebike. I know there appears to be a lot of manufacturers that came about just to focus on ebikes alone as a result of what appears to be an ebike revolution the past several years.

6) I know Bosch has been "king" (for the most part) for a long time. I've done some reading on the differences between theres and the Shimano Steps. Any thoughts strictly on features and durability between the two motors? This may be speculative to some degree as I know Shimano Steps hasn't been out too long.

7) I have also talked to a couple outfits that do hub motor conversions on non ebikes which offers the opportunity to save a bit of money as well as some "redundancy" if it's fair to say, in the drive train. It's been suggested to me by a bike shop that they think front hub motors are dangerous. Remember we are talking about people that would bike for work here, so this needs to be fairly user friendly which is why I take this opinion seriously. I've read some reasons as to why this may be the case, but for now I've ruled out the idea of a front hub motor conversion.

8) Any other thoughts on my idea? I have developed a "program" for the above idea which is centred around safety and protocol. But having quality gear built to stand up day in and day out is a central point to this idea.

Thanks for your time.

fietsbob

For 2018 Trek has various models with those 2 motors. as shown in a printed catalog.... I have yet to see any in person.

Ask at your LBS.

Bikewolf

You can ride your ebike with zero assistance (OFF) or empty battery (not recommended though), sure. Unless there are health condition issues in play.

But don’t think motor alone. E.g. a flat tire can easily change your mood too ;-)

hockey

Take a trip to Germany. Just riding the Rhine cycle route. 9 of 10 bikes are electric. Many towing trailers. Haibike, etc. Very impressive.

sweeks

I was at InterBike last week and rode a bunch of different bikes with electric motors on them. Most of them had Bosch mid-drive motors, though I rode at least one (of each) bike with Bafang and Shimano mid-drive motors. The bikes equipped with Bosch motors seemed fairly normal with the assist turned off, though the bikes are heavier and that was noticeable.

I'm not sure why riding the bike with a flat battery would be a problem, except for the extra work of carrying the weight of the motor and battery. These bikes seem to have pretty sophisticated electronic controls, which would probably just shut the motor off when the battery got low enough.

One nice thing about the mid-drives (speaking of flat tires) is that the wheels are normal and as long as you can get them off the bike, repairing a flat would be just like on a non-electric bike.
Steve

Bikewolf

1. Remember, a bike’s weight is more than it’s motor. (e.g. Bosch 3,9 kg vs. Shimano 3,2 kg; a bike can be about only 23 kg)
2. It is not optimal to charge a battery when being 100% empty.
3. Flat tire? A rear dérailleur system helps too :-)

gregf83 

There's nothing wrong or harmful charging an empty battery. The controller should disconnect the load before the battery voltage goes too low.

Nightdiver

Some thoughts for you...

Don't rule out other motors that have a proven and excellent track record such as Yamaha and Brose.

The reason that many Bosch have a small chainring is because the motor has a 2.5x internal gear multiplier. Newer generations of Bosch are eliminating this feature so will have 1:1 chainring relationship.

For the most part, bikes without batteries or without a charge will ride pretty well, except that the weight penalty will still be there. Also, many ebikes are built with items that increase weight/drag knowing that the motor will hide them, but once you ride unpowered, you can really feel the added drag. For flatter routes or with more streamlined bikes, not such a big deal, but much more noticeable with any added load or hills.

If the motor fails, it may or may not prevent riding the bike. Depends on the failure cause. But no different than many other parts of a bike, just likely to be more difficult to diagnose/fix and more costly to repair.

For heavier load applications you should look for bikes designed to handle that sort of thing. Beefier brakes, stouter frame build, strong wheels, etc. There's nothing special about Trek, so dive into the world of ebikes and look at the options in the utility/cargo field.

Any reason you're considering the bike + trailer combo instead of a cargo bike? Do the available options not have enough space for your potential loads?

sweeks

Many e-bikes have rear derailleurs. That, plus normal wheels, helps with flat repair.
Steve

Bikewolf

I meant service life / storage: being completely discharged is not advised for the batteries.

And you’re right. The BMS won’t allow the battery to actually run completely flat.

gregf83 

Yes, storing a fully discharged battery can damage it if the cell voltage drops below a couple volts/cell.

sweeks

Here are a couple images of Shimano's STEPS motor, taken at the Shimano display at InterBike. Not exactly a simple machine!
Steve

slomoshun

Not any more complex than a Bosch or Bafang mid-drive. It's very well made, too.

My E6000 is a joy to ride with a 10-speed cluster in back. Much of the time on level ground where power assist isn't necessary, I switch it 'off' and the bike rides just fine.

sweeks

I didn't mean to sound disparaging in the least! Just that you won't be tuning that with a spoke wrench.

It's amazing how reliable electronics have become.
Steve

EDIT: One thing I wonder, though... aren't those gears going to be lubricated? And what keeps the lubricant off the circuit board? And how does the lubricant get renewed or changed? Questions, questions!

slomoshun

> Just that you won't be tuning that with a spoke wrench.

It doesn't need to be tuned. The only recommended tweak for mine was to check for annual firmware updates.


> aren't those gears going to be lubricated? And what keeps the lubricant off the circuit board?

It's a dry box, there is no oil bath. The gears and clutch are greased and the shafts ride on sealed ball bearings.


> And how does the lubricant get renewed or changed?

By removing the side covers. Maybe the tech at my Trek dealer was joking [or maybe not] when he said to come back in 30K miles for a Steps service.

The Steps is better built than my Makita electric drill and compound miter saw, and those have been running fine and tortured for 10+ years. I think the bike will go through a lot of chains, clusters, brake pads, tires, etc, before the power unit croaks.


This guy couldn't resist disassembling his Steps unit. The chatter is Dutch, but you can still see the internals with the sound off. https://tinyurl.com/y9hsmare

speyfitter

I initially started focused on the idea of a long tail cargo bike with either a mid drive or front hub motor - still haven't completely ruled it out but.... I have since switched to the concept of trailer and e-bike as I felt it was more versatile and offered many more options in bike/trailer/cargo to suit specific trades persons plus was easier to work with run of the mill plastic totes for storage of tools, some parts, gear, lunch, etc. Price was a factor to some degree as well. A decent cargo e-bike with mid drive motor can be a bit more expensive in some cases than the many regular e-bike options with trailers, etc.
Lots to think about, certainly.

speyfitter

Thanks again for everyone that has taken their time to respond. I have another related topic I'd appreciate your input on and this is something I'm kinda creating some data on myself with Strava app.

I'll sum it up with a phrase - "Average effective speed" - of cars, bikes, and e-bikes in comparison to each other? Anyone have any data or personal experiences they'd like to share? We all know in a straight line that obviously a car is faster than a bike, and an e-bike in the hands of an average user is probably faster than a non e-bike for most as it smoothes out the landscape and makes up speed on hills where regular bikes often suffer. But throw in some city traffic, various city intersections, some bike lanes, and for short trips the bike ain't looking so bad in getting there in a timely manner to that of a car. My understanding is bikes often excel in short trips (say trips of 5 kms/3 miles or less) but as the distance becomes greater often cars show their advantage due to higher top speeds. But by how much? Has anyone ever taken some time to create data such as this? I'd love to hear your personal experiences as well - did you used to drive to work and now take an e-bike? or ride a regular bike and now ride an e-bike? How has that changed your commute times?

Rick Imby

I have put several miles on Yamaha (Giant), Shimano and Bafang and a few on the Bosch. The tiny front sprocket on the Bosch made it the worst of the bunch to ride with a dead battery. The normal ---38-46 tooth chainrings on the other mid drives work better when dead.

Your guys will be able to cruise at 17-20 mph easily with ebikes. With a 100+ load in a trailer without electric boost it would be more like 10 mph.

I would stick with 2" wide tires, front shocks, suspension seatpost and disc brakes---I like the simplicity of cable brakes but hydralic discs are barely more expensive and I doubt you will find any good ebikes without them---Run from any ebike without disc brakes---.