CrimsonEclipse

I need to say in advance: I do not hate ebikes or the riders and have preciously stated concern on where the assist/motorcycle line is drawn for the safety of those on MUP's and sidewalks.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/04...cargo-e-bikes/

This is.... something.

For use in a factory or on/in/within a campus I get it, but to see something like this on a sidewalk or MUP is frankly, insulting.

Again, it's where we draw the line from motor assisted bicycle to rider assisted motorcycle.... or in this case, centipede monstrosity.

mixteup

You could take the whole extended family out for a spin on the mup ;~)

RB1-luvr

you could start a moving company in Portland with that.

Robert C

And where have you seen this thing speeding down a sidewalk or MUP?

. . . Oh, that's right, you haven't. The mere fact that it exists is enough to be bothered by. I can not come up with many applications where this would be useful, but I am not going to be bothered by the fact that it exists.


This is a case where I think a small electric van would be a lot more practical.

To answer the title question, the limits are defined in state and local laws.

john m flores 

These things are already all over Manhattan:


SOURCE: https://momentummag.com/tern-and-dut...ty-deliveries/

I don't recall ever seeing one on a bike path/lane - they're simply too long and would have trouble turning. They're big and visible and fast enough to just occupy a car lane. I think they're a great, environmentally responsible way to deliver goods; way better than a truck sitting in traffic and then idling and blocking the lane while picking up or delivering.

I have seen them going the wrong way down a street but I've also seen bike messengers and tourists on CitiBikes do that. It's not the bike's fault.

2old

As above, we have laws (IMO good ones) defining what is allowed on MUP's. If goods can be delivered economically by "e", fine. From my perspective, the utility of anything larger than 750w is inversely proportional to the size of the motor.

CrimsonEclipse

On the road and off the MUP? no problem.
Driving like jerks like car drivers do? It's fair game (and kind of required in Manhattan)

While I'm on the subject (and the fact that you guys are better informed than I am):
Are there any safety statistics for the ebike delivery drivers in dense cities?

zandoval 

Kawasaki 500 (Rice Burner) with Kawasaki's new 11 Kw motor.

It's simple - Bicycles transition into motorcycles and ebikes transition into Kawasaki's new Ninja 400 HEV. Yep.

And regular bicycles will transition back into regular bicycles as bicycle repair and maintenance becomes impossible to afford...

Bonzo Banana

This whole 250W European ebike limit is a complete farce to be honest. Bosch based mid-drive ebikes are using something like 23-25A when climbing hills at 36V which is well over 800W so really its a 900W ebike but they are openly sold as 250W. You go in a showroom and the sales people will tell you only mid-drive motors can deliver 90Nm at 250W and this is because of their greater efficiency but of course its all lies and they are consuming over 3x that limit when providing their claimed torque figures. I'm not sure if its incompetence or corruption that leads to such a mismatch between the legislation and the actual products but in most certification of the world if you buy a 1500W washing machine it doesn't consume 5000W etc, same for most items that have a wattage stated. Nowadays I just link in my mind 250W with the 15.5mph assisted speed limit as it has absolutely nothing to do with the wattage of the ebike. So what seemed impressive cargo carrying ability for 250W is really probably close to 1000W of power which is still impressive just not as impressive as 250W.

2old

IMO, as with other vehicles, speed not power should be the characteristic which the law regulates.

late

I hate to say this, but Europe's speed limiter is part of the reason for their success.

Leisesturm

I don't believe any of this. Not saying you are lying, but very, very misinformed. Incompetence and corruption are not words you can throw around lightly when talking about such a large, interelated, government system like the EU. What is your point anyway? If you live in the EU and you are able to get 1000W ebikes despite them being ... illegal, why are you looking a loophole gift horse in the mouth? If you don't live in the EU why do you care what they do over there?

Leisesturm

I doubt it. Europeans by and large aren't haters like Americans. Why on earth would something succeed by being underpowered and impractical? E-bikes succeed because everything succeeds in the environment of ... sanity, that prevails in most of the well run parts of the EU. Mass transit succeeds, un-assisted bikes succeed, walking succeeds, why wouldn't e-bikes, especially, e-utility bikes, not also succeed?

veganbikes

The hard line should always be drawn at Motorcycles, mopeds and other throttled vehicles, they have zero place on any pedestrian areas and really should not be in areas with bicycles. However a pedal assist bicycle is fine anywhere bikes are allowed though I don't generally especially in cities and heavily trafficked areas that they need to be allowed on sidewalks and that is just bicycles in general.

In terms of cargo carrying I think bike lanes are fine for those but commercial entities do not belong on MUPs and similar type places. However the concept of them is neat. It looks like they kind of copied the Carla Cargo trailer a little and that is a fantastic trailer I have used the non-electric version with an electric cargo bike and it was great. Loads of fun even hauling 8 bikes. Really great for inner city travel

Bonzo Banana

I do live in the UK but much prefer the honest legislation of the USA where wattage is more clearly stated and not manipulated. How does a 250W e-mountain bike discharge a 500Wh battery in 40 minutes? The main issue is to me it seems expensive European designed ebikes get to use a 250W rating despite being really 900W and yet cheaper hub motor ebikes which consume less power are seen as illegal in wattage terms. My issue is it should be a level playing field for all. However we are now seeing some hub motor based ebikes given a 250W rating. These are 750W or 1000W motors same as sold elsewhere in the world and sold as 250W. All they have done is really put a 250W sticker on the ebike and made sure they come as 15.5mph assistance speed. So effectively the difference between an illegal and legal ebike is nothing more than a sticker on the motor. It's just an utter farce to be honest.

I'm not saying anything new or controversial this has been widely reported for many years that 250W ebikes in Europe are not 250W.

https://www.ebikeschool.com/myth-ebike-wattage/

The issue with these high cost European ebikes that pretend to be 250W is they are fairly unreliable, put all their power through the drivetrain and highly proprietary and this makes them uneconomic to repair and short life. It's an unfair advantage given to the worst possible ebikes for daily commuting and general use. Even the frames are proprietary as they have special mountings for the mid-drive motor so if your frame fails due to fatigue or an accident its thousands of pounds to replace if available. It's not hard to measure the wattage of a motor and see how much current is going from a battery. The link above says 20A as a maximum but fairly sure on a Bosch ebike 23A at 36V has been measured possibly more.

The whole situation has ended up being very confusing and unenforceable in much of Europe. I was previously a compliance officer dealing with a huge amount of certification and never seen anything like this before. If you buy a 1500W washing machine just like in the USA its a 1500W washing machine that uses up to and close to that rating. It's not 5000W in reality.

Lets also not forget Bosch were behind the huge dieselgate fiasco and placed a spy in Dyson to see if they could steal information. They are not a company that seems to worry too much about the legality of things at times. Also the ebike certification is very strangely written. For example hub motors have no control of how much power they receive from the controller which is external and that dictates the actual power used but the certification has the motor rating on the hub motor not the controller. That makes sense for a mid-drive motor where the controller is internal but makes no sense for a hub motor. The certification seems to be purely written from a mid-drive motor perspective. A direct drive hub motor for example can use anything from 200W to 2000W so putting a 250W rating sticker on it again is farcical and meaningless. It's like putting the engine capacity sticker on the transmission of a normal car.

Anyway the EU certification of 250W is very selective of which ebikes can be certified as 250W despite being actually in the region of 900-1000W true rating. In contrast the US at least from an external viewpoint seems to have a fair marketplace for ebike sellers with true motor ratings. Perhaps I'll be corrected on that one but on the surface at least it doesn't seem to be effected by either corrupt or incompetent legislation and I think that is hugely to its credit.

Leisesturm

As I understand it, even in the U.S., motor wattage is not an absolute. The way I have heard it described (simplified) there is no actual difference between a high quality 250W, 500W or 1000W motor! A CHEAP 250W motor will burn up and be destroyed if 500W of power are put through it for even 5 seconds. A more robust 'better' motor can withstand more heat and will get a higher wattage rating but it is not more powerful, just better made. The BATTERY determines the rating of the motor. Voltage x current = power rating. The motor has nothing to do with it. The motors are made in China and the ones that go to the EU (and UK) are only allowed to have 250W put to them. In the US they are allowed to have more, whether they are up to it or not. The highways and byways of the U.S. are littered with the blackened, half melted, pot metal casings of sub-par e-motors bogged to death by lazy operators. You want to see that happening everywhere?

ALL mid-drive systems except the Bafang and Tongshen DIY systems use proprietary mounting shells that must be factory installed when the frame is being built. It's not a conspiracy. Well, no more of a conspiracy than MTB components having different dimensions than ROAD components. If you are not behaving like an absolute hooligan on your e-bike you will never be stopped by law enforcement to inspect your motor. In 2023 no manufacturer has yet come up with a way to limit the un-assisted speed of a bicycle. But up to the assist limit all bets are off. The 250W system is more powerful than any three moderately fit cyclists you could find. Who needs more?

late

Because it keeps the speed low, it reduces the number of accidents with pedestrians, and other cyclists. It also reduces their severity.

In some countries in the EU, half of all bike sales are ebikes, that is success.

2old

Why would 20 mph "throttle" be different than 20 mph on any other bike? IMO, as with other vehicles, the differentiation should be speed-based. I

Leisesturm

You don't think the same is true in the U.S.? I do. American e-bikes are arguably more powerful, but it can also be argued that they have to be. We have hills here. America's car market has popular models that have insane speed capabilities but nowhere that a driver can actually utilize it. There are tracks that you can rent time on though if you really want to explore the far side of 100 mph. Number of accidents with peds? God help me I don't know that I've heard of such a thing happening here. I'm serious. All this handwringing about the misdeeds of an impossibly small number of people and their hotrodded e-motorcycles. The vast majority of American e-bikes are being ridden responsibly. And it could be argued that if EU countries increased the power limit of ebikes they could be used more in utility/cargo applications and maybe 85 to 90 percent of sales would be e-bikes. THAT is success.

late

"Of all the global markets (except for Africa), the USA was the slowest to accept the electric bicycle as a viable means of transportation. Even today, the USA is considered to have a medium growth rate, which is much lower than the European and Asia-Pacific regions."
https://www.ebicycles.com/ebike-facts-statistics/

When you say America has hills... Europe also has hills, I've ridden over some of them.

For bikes, all kinds, to be truly successful here, we need much better cycling infrastructure...

13velos

As a cyclist, I’m still on the fence about e-bikes. I could only hope they will be a boon to the transportation and utilitarian side of things, but I’m mostly seeing them used for recreational riding around here. Well, much like bicycles…sigh.

Robert C

Pictures, we need pictures!

Agreement. While my Priority current is currently down due to a broken axle, mine is normally used for commuting, frequently into +35mph wind, but not hooliganing. The only others I see are also being used by commuters. In my case it makes a lot more sense to ride my eBike than to drive my, somewhat hulking, FJ Cruiser. However, with the wind in this town, regular commuting on a push-bike just is not practical for me.

Alan K

The general “message” of some of the posters seems to be that EU is more honest, relatively benevolent and environment friendly whereas US is not. This is, of course, an absurd position.
Wasn’t it the powerhouse of the EU whose auto companies deliberately cheated about the quality of their cars, emissions and fuel economy, for a long time until they got caught in US and “settled” out of court for close to $100 million. I do realize that US system is also quite corrupt or they would have never permitted this settlement without admission of guilt, given that it was a deliberate plan of German car manufacturers by specifically installing a software to cheat during EPA testing.
In every nation there are people who have no compunction in cheating as long as they can get away with it. Occasionally, some get caught but then they get off by bribing.

Alan K

Not everything is directly comparable between living in US and Europe - smaller distances to travel, higher population density in most European and Asian cities where majority of people work. In US, commuting distances are greater, some people drive 50 miles or more one way to get to work. I personally always thought it was crazy, but it is reality for a lot of people.

late

We still need better cycling infrastructure.

I used to ride into Portland every week, sometimes twice, mostly to Trader Joes. Covid set off a mini-population boom, and suddenly we had lots of new construction, and lots of aggressive drivers from away. I haven't ridden my bicycle there in a couple years.

We really need better cycling infrastructure, the vast majority won't ride until it's safe.