I thought I might ask just one or two questions:

What percentage of time are Veloteq riders pedaling their e-bikes? For example, on a traditional road bike, no electric hub or anything, I'd say people pedal about 85% of the time.

Second, what do you think this marketing image from Veloteq is trying to say?

http://veloteq.com/veloteqgallery.co...muter-galv.jpg

I love Scooter style BIKES. I sell them and service them and they really are bikes. They are much safer on public paths then Open Frame bikes, roller bladers and people wearing headphones. They also are more comfortable and more practical then riding a petal powered bike 15KM to work in 33 degree C temps. I also like riding the other types of bikes but feel safer on my scooter style, especially in traffic. Petal power has its place, it has history and nostalga. No sense arguing if its a bike or not. Thankfully it is considered a bike by LAW and can go anywhere a bike can go.

Some people can see beyond what is, what was and what may be. Keep a closed mind and you can stay in your rut (definition of a rut is a coffin with both ends kicked out) Just for the record, I have met many decent people who want an alternitive to driving their cars. They love the idea of a scooter style e-bike. They would never buy a frame type bike, electric or not. We are all tax payers and we all fund the trail systems being developed. The bikes(dosn't matter which type) are not the problem. It's the people who ride them. So you bashers siting back at your keyboards, typing out pure drival for the sense of trying to prove what???? Please try to relieze that working together we can have bike paths that will be some of the best in the world.

There is a fine line between and electric bicycle and a scooter. IMHO if you don't pedal, it's not a bicycle. However, I've no problems with a nice brushless front hub motor and a battery pack on a rear rack, installed on what used to be a normal bicycle. In fact, I might rig my wife's bike in such a way. She can't keep up with me on rides and a power-assist would be welcomed.

You keep posting the same drivel (via cut and paste, no less) about scooter style bikes being safer than open frame bikes. Please provide some proof! Just stating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

My open frame e-bike weighs less than 50lbs. Obviously it's going to accelerate and stop quicker than an e-scooter weighing over 175lbs. It's just simple physics. You might FEEL safer surrounded by all that plastic bodywork, but you're not. And which one is going to be easier to pick up if you drop it, or push home if you have a flat, or your battery runs out?

If you, or anyone else, wants to ride them, sell them, or service them, that's OK by me. JUST DON'T INSIST THAT THEY'RE BICYCLES WHEN THEY'RE NOT!

E-scooters are no more a bicycle than a Vespa or Harley Davidson is a bicycle.

Furthermore, if you really sell them and service them, as you claim, you should know the difference between "petal" and "pedal". Personally, I wouldn't trust any of my bikes to someone who didn't.

Petal: "One of a circle of modified leaves immediately outside the reproductive organs of a flower; usually brightly colored."

Pedal: "A lever for the foot usually applied only to musical instruments, cycles, and other machines."

If this limitation is preventing you from getting out of your car, then you'll have to wait. The best ebikes generally will give you about 30 miles of ASSISTED range on a 4 hour recharge. However, if you this limitation is preventing you from changing over from a regular bicycle, then, I don't see it as a valid excuse unless you need to bike more than 30 miles in one day on a regular basis.

I love Scooter style BIKES. I sell them and service them and they really are bikes. They are much safer on public paths then Open Frame bikes, roller bladers and people wearing headphones. They also are more comfortable and more practical then riding a pedal powered bike...

That better :0)

I agree, Scooter style bikes are not BICYCLES, but by law during the 3 year pilot program they are permitted to travel wherever a bicycle is. They are not considered motorized vehicles. They only assit up to 32km. They have pedals that are capable of propelling the machine and have an electric motor rated for not more the 500 watts continuous measured at the shaft.

Just repeating the same BS over and over, aren't we?

WHERE'S THE PROOF???

Oh, and by the way, you used the word "petal" again in your last post. Check your last sentence.

(Who wants to bet that Golectric addresses the "petal" issue in his next post, but still doesn't provide the proof I'm asking for?)

Thats what the pilot program is for

Can you offer some proof as to why they are not??

So he said "petal" instead of "pedal". Big f'ing deal. :rolleyes:

People make typing mistakes on the net all the time. Go around the web a few times and grow up.

Character assassination? I didn't need to do anything, YOU DID IT YOURSELF!

You think it needs balls to get a motorcycle licence? Just how dumb are you? It doesn't need balls, it's just money and skills. If you've got the skills to drive a gas scooter, you've got the skills to drive an e-scoot.

Of course I think that e-scoots whould remain on the street and off the bike trails.

But my point, and I still maintain you're being one hell of a stupid person with this, is that attacking people who are giving up their cars for e-scoots, is really counter-productive.

But now that "autoworker" isn't just an alias, it seems to be your profession; that would explain why you refuse e-bikes and want us to buy cars instead.

PS: I have a Bionx powered mountain bike. Most people can't even tell it's an electric bike, it looks like just any other mountain bike.

You are making the assertion, the burden of proof is on you.

who was it that said "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"?

That's what I'm hearing here. The pilot program is not to prove electric scooters are safer than bicycles. On their own web site the Ontario Government quite clearly states:
"The goal of Ontario's pilots is to test and evaluate the operation and regulation of:

• power-assisted bicycles as conventional bicycles on Ontario roads; operators must be 16 years of age or older and all operators must wear an approved bicycle helmet, and
• low-speed vehicles driven by park employees who have a valid driver's licence in a controlled, low-speed park environment.

I know you think you'll make a lot of money selling these electric scooters, and I wish you luck. Don't call them bicycles and don't make claims you can't substantiate.

Aside from the idea of looking cooler because you're on a scooter instead of a bike I still have a really hard time understanding why someone would want one over a MTB or a recumbent. At the same time its one less hummer and I would rather live with a bunch of dumb(image obsessed) scooters then a bunch of blind SUVs.

Back to the reasons for a scooter.... ive seen people here argue that they are safer but I haven't the slightest clue why. Ive seen people say they are more comfortable but they couldn't possibly be better then a nice laz-e-boy style recumbent. The one thing I wonder about is aero dynamics, seeing as how scooters are usually rounded and stuff do they have less drag then a regular MTB?

(1.) I agree with you 100% about keeping them off the bike trails

(2.) Actually, I'm an industrial maintenance electrician who just happens to work at an auto assembly plant. I'm a big supporter of e-bikes, just not e-scooters. I think they are pretentious, and a waste of good plastic. I also think that the world would be better off with LESS cars. And, no, I'm not worried about my job. I have 32 yrs. seniority, and could retire tomorrow if I choose to.

(3.) I, too, have a Bionx powered bike. Mine is a Dahon Jetstream P8, with full suspension. You're right, it's very stealthy, and most people can't tell it's electric. I took off all the Bionx labels from the battery on the cross tube; that helps with the stealth, too. I'm trying to find a black helmet cover to put over it, so it just looks like another bag.

(4.) It seems that we actually have more in common than you think. Wanna go ride sometime?

Up until I pointed out the difference between "petal" and "pedal", Golectric used the word "petal" consistently whenever he was talking about pedals. It wasn't just a one-time typo. And this guy sells and services e-scooters? Methinks he's just in it for the money.

I haven't grown up yet in 54yrs and I'm not about to now, on the advice of some stranger on the internet that I don't even know. :lol:

So I called a petal a pedal, or visa versa. Of course I'm in it for the money. It's a great thing to be a part of. Stokell, I think your ride blogs are fantastic! Great work. Autoworker, I hope you can rethink your position. My opinion on the safety of these is based on riding them. How can you or anyone else make a case against them when you have not rode one? I have ridden a bionx system and they are great but it still dosn't appeal to a large segment of the population. The E-scoots are very different then a conventional bike but they are similar in many ways. They look very wide but that is a deception because of the body work. The plastic fairings cut the wind and also protect the rider. They also would absorb impact better then the soild front end of a conventional bike. They are similar in power rating and can not be pedaled faster then 32km where as I'm sure your bionx bike can be? What are the reasons to treat them differently then a bicycle?

It's so easy to let emotion get in the way of good judgement. Lets keep this thread on track and really deal with why people have problems with scooter style bikes.

The common sense that people have is that the bigger it is, the more dangerous it is. So you're making a claim that's counterintuitive. So I'd like to know why you think e-scoots are safer for other people than bicylists and roller bladers. I cannot see how that can be. An inattentive e-scooter will cause more damage to others than an inattentive biker or blader.

Thar you go again! Can you prove this or is it just your imagination or opinion? My opinion is just as good as yours or stockels, but unless you have a few studies to back it up you can't go around saying electric scooters are safer than bikes.

BS baffles brains! I think it was Goebels who said if you repeat lies enouigh people will believe it.

Electric scooters are safer then bikes

Sure, I can say what I want. I have said that it is not the bike, it is the rider. It's alright for people to post assumtions the bigger and heavier means more dangerous. It's alright for people to call others and then tell them to STFU
It's alright for people to quote Nazi war criminals.

Give me a break!

HEAVIER = SLOWER ACCELERATION, LONGER STOPPING DISTANCES, LESS RANGE, + GREATER DAMAGE UPON IMPACT, AS WELL AS GREATER DIFFICULTY UPRIGHTING A FALLEN BIKE. AND HOW EASY ARE THEY TO PEDAL HOME WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF JUICE, DUE TO THEIR EXCESSIVE WEIGHT?

This is just Physics 101. THEY ARE NOT SAFER THAN ANYTHING!!! THEY ARE HEAVIER, SLOWER, AND USE UP MORE RESOURCES IN THEIR MANUFACTURE, SHIPPING, AND DAY-TO-DAY USE!

Their only justification is to appeal to those who don't want to be seen riding a "lowly" bicycle, but want to appear to be riding a "cool" scooter, without having to pay the insurance and licensing costs involved, or having to develop the required skills necessary to pass the licensing tests.

A customer wrote in to a BC ebike dealer to buy another bike.Apparently got cut off by a car and piled into the side.The body fairings and front suspension absorbed the impact on this scooter style ebike.She said she lifted slightly in the seat and settled back down,and said if she still rode her bicycle,she would have been laying on the other side of the car.

More resources than what,say,A CAR or SUV?

IF she was on a regular bike she would have gone over the handlebars..... on the other hand.... a bike with a rear hub motor and a pile of battery's.... im inclined to believe she would have had a similar experience to the scooter.

These e-Scooters may appear safer because of the body work, but if it's not structural then I don't see how it actually would protect people. I also think these e-Scooters would have a longer stopping distance and less maneuverability than a real bike, such as a traditional e-Bike or a regular human-powered bike, because they're heavier. And they're heavier for purely cosmetic/image-based reasons, not functional reasons.

Another poster alluded to it, but I think we're forgetting about another safety issue: how safe these would be in a collision with a pedestrian or another cyclist.

I think that if one of these collided with a ped at 25 MPH on a bike path, it would be devastating, and much worse than (for example) a traditional road bike.

If I saw one of these on a multi-use path with children or other pedestrians walking around, I would call the police immediately to get that person off the path. On my bike I'd try ot catch up and stop them -- I can make 400 W when pressed, enough to keep up maybe.

30 miles assisted doesn't cut it. For less money anyone can have unlimited range along with more comfort, safety, speed, and durability. Ebikes only make sense for a very limited market. For me I'd much rather ride as far as I want on a light and good handling normal bike then get assist on a severely overweight bike for the first 30 miles and then have to try and pedal the slug the rest of my ride.

And that of course is just your oppinion.

Fact is : eBikes are excellent commuters. And most people going to the office would prefer not to sweat and stink when they arrive.

That's one advantage eBikes have. There are plenty of others as well.

eBikes may be a limited market, but it's growing every years as the price of gas goes up. Case and point: everywhere around here (Toronto) shops are back-ordered on eBikes and eScooters. The demand is far more than the supply.

That's why these things are better for the roads and are not suitable for the trails. Again, I say, these things are more dangerous for other trail users than a regular bicycle... to dangerous.

Whyall the thrashing indeed!
 

RIDE AND LET RIDE

Why all the thrashing on the websites regarding scooter style e-bikes? As much as I am tempted to defend these new additions to the road, I find myself holding back with certain individuals because I know it just sparks more anger.
Is it because of their anonymity that they muster up this kind resentment on something as trivial as a scooter style e-bike. Have our lives become so empty that they we derive some sort of pleasure from judging what other people are riding. Who cares whether the power assisted bike looks like a bicycle or it looks like a Vespa. Is that not the appeal of the bike, with the comfortable seat, and it’s sleek styling, not to mention the motorcycle style headlights and turn signals that “drives” the person to purchase that vehicle?
Is it not the look and colour and features that attract us to a certain automobile or mobile phone? The people attracted to the scooter style bike, in general are not interested in owning or riding a traditional bicycle. Whether it is for health reasons or simple logistics, is that not the choice of the individual? Is it not beneficial to all to have one less car on the road? Does it have to be a bicycle or a car? Does it have to be so black and white….If your mother came riding home on a scooter style e-bike would you feel the same anger and berate her on a public forum or would you perhaps just keep your thoughts to yourself ..
What is it about forums that make people so judgmental and opinionated?
The people who own the SUVs and the Tanks on the roads are feeling the pain of the price of fuel and are slowly turning to cheaper alternatives. Perhaps their reasons are not necessarily altruistic and saving the planet is not at the top of their “to-do” list but who cares…if the result is one less car off the road?
The scooter style e-bike and power assisted bike are new additions to the road. They do not have to fall under the bicycle mentality nor is it important for the bicycle puritans to like it. . The E-Bike is a new transportation alternative offered by the government that fortunately is concerned with the environment
Is that not a good thing? I have personally found the biggest knockers of scooter style e-bikes is the bicyclist himself (herself). If there were more bikers on the road, whether it is power assisted or not, we would end up with more paths because of this demand…or would you like to see my research?
Pocket bikes and such were taken off the road because they were unsafe….A scooter style e-bike is still under review as is a power assisted bike….I am allowed to use the word bike by the way when referring to the e-bikes. They have been accepted and used worldwide and their owners seem to love them. Why all the thrashing? I have been riding my scooter style e-bike now for almost two years now and personally I feel safer on my bike than I ever did on my pedal bike. I enjoy the ride and love the concept and encourage others to at least consider it as a viable option….That is of course if it is okay with you cyclists?

Certainly my bike is not of the regular x-mart variety but with my power consumption rates I can make it nearly 100miles with ASSISTED riding. OR i can make it a little over 20miles with unassisted motorcycle speeds, to me thats the great flexibility of my ebike, I can make it much farther then i would ever hope to just pedaling and do it much faster. Then using the same vehicle i can get to work faster then using my car all the while it costs about as much as filling my gas tank for 8 months. Oh and I can still pedal it unassisted, When I melted my cheap overly modded controller I pedaled about 7 miles home, it was a little unplesant but still much better then pushing it or just walking.

I am a little surprised to see people complaining about the MTB style ebikes, I thought people were just going off on the scooters but I guess some people don't like MTB style either. As far as people complaining about their cost efficiency my full build cost 1400 and gets me a lot further, much faster then i could possibly go just pedaling. For a reference point most of the new road bikes i see around cost that much by themselves. As for them not being green enough.... with my usage patterns my LiFePO4 battery's are rather environmentally friendly, recyclable and should last me for over 10 years. As far as energy efficiency there is a really cool paper that compares electric to human powered and takes quite a few factors into account. www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/Ebike_Energy.pdf

Maybe we should have a seperate threads for bashing scooters vs bashing MTB style ebikes.

Horse and Buggy
 

My grandfather told me that when horse and buggy ruled the roads, the people who yelled the loudest against the use of automobiles on the road, because they were loud and dangerous and scaring the horses eventually were owners of them. People fear what they don't understand. Is a scooter safer than a bicycle? Personally I would say yes, in my opinion. I think bicycles in general are the most dangerous vehicle on the road. I have one and I ride it, but that is my opinion. I would never want them off the road, nor would I judge someone for riding one, but they are dangerous. It doesn't matter who's fault it is when you get hit....you're hurt the driver of the car isn't. One day when we are all old and grey and not quite ready for a mobility scooter, the scooter style is at least another option...Speak to anyone that owns a scooter style e-bike and ask them their opinion of the comfort and safety and joy they experience..and it is their opinion that counts.