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E-scooters are fine. They just shouldn't be on bike trails. Nor should e-bikes be powered on bike trails which is filled with peds and bikes and isn't designed for speed. Respect others and don't abuse the rules too much or else we will all suffer when new, more restrictive laws are passed.
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I have noticed that most cyclists on traditional bicycles do not come to a complete stop at designated stops, because of the effort it takes to build up momentum again. Because this is not the case with power on demand, I find that the scooter style riders in general do not break the same law and are more likely to come to a complete stop. I also have noticed the speed going downhill that most cyclist achieve, so they have the ability to get up the hill on the other side. Once again, we have the power to make it up a hill, so this move is not necessary.
I can ride comfortably at 5km per hour on my e-bike on a bike trail as can a cyclist....It is not the vehicle that is a problem it is the rider. I have seen many cyclists at a speed not conducive to the pedestrian traffic. That is why many parks want them banned as well...How do you cyclist feel about that? One bad rider ruins it for everyone. If a mobility scooter is allowed on three or four wheels, why not a two wheeled if the same slow speed is achieved? Example: If a physically disabled tax paying citizen wants to cut through a park on a bicycle path at a slow speed, what business is it of anybodies if he or she is riding on two wheels, three or four and if the speed is attained by muscular power or battery assist? |
Originally Posted by crackerdog
(Post 6895517)
E-scooters are fine. They just shouldn't be on bike trails. Nor should e-bikes be powered on bike trails which is filled with peds and bikes and isn't designed for speed. Respect others and don't abuse the rules too much or else we will all suffer when new, more restrictive laws are passed.
It's just as maneouverable, nimble and uncomfortable as a regular bike. As for the rules, it's 100% legal and follows the rules. I'm even more legal than regular bikes... I stop at stop signs. |
Originally Posted by njm
(Post 6887013)
I thought I might ask just one or two questions:
What percentage of time are Veloteq riders pedaling their e-bikes? For example, on a traditional road bike, no electric hub or anything, I'd say people pedal about 85% of the time. Second, what do you think this marketing image from Veloteq is trying to say? http://veloteq.com/veloteqgallery.co...muter-galv.jpg I use my pedals only to increase speed up steep hills and to take the stress off the battery...so not often as I have bad knees. My Guess to your next question is "Enjoy the Freedom without the Pollution" |
Originally Posted by stokell
(Post 6891233)
You are making the assertion, the burden of proof is on you.
who was it that said "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"? That's what I'm hearing here. The pilot program is not to prove electric scooters are safer than bicycles. On their own web site the Ontario Government quite clearly states: "The goal of Ontario's pilots is to test and evaluate the operation and regulation of:
I know you think you'll make a lot of money selling these electric scooters, and I wish you luck. Don't call them bicycles and don't make claims you can't substantiate. |
Entertaining thread!:D
A bit of interesting stuff from the same Ontario Ministry of Transportation webpage quoted in the Godwin's Law post above. http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...icle/emerging/ Power-Assisted/Electric Bicycles Can be operated on roads in Ontario Effective October 3, 2006, the Province of Ontario began a three-year pilot project to evaluate the use of power-assisted bicycles........ (I'm not about to post the whole website here. But there's an interesting note at the bottom of the page.) NOTE: A commitment has been made to evaluate the pilot prior to its three-year expiry. The intent of the ministry’s pilot was to allow e-bikes that look and operate like conventional bikes in order to promote a safe, healthy and environmentally friendly alternative to current transportation modes. The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot’s e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot’s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted. |
"The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot’s e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot’s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted.".
This has been my point EXACTLY all along. I feel like I've been banging my head against a brick wall since I first posted to this thread! All the supporters of e-scooters base their arguments on their feelings- i.e. "I feel safer on my e-scooter...It stops quicker, and offers more protection...etc...etc." No valid, logical arguments, just feelings...If your mother came riding home on a scooter style e-bike would you feel the same anger and berate her on a public forum..." Again, an emotional argument, not a logical one. Those of us that don't support e-scooters, however, base our arguments against them on facts, logic, and physics. All the extraneous bodywork on an e-scooter does nothing to enhance its performance or safety. All it does is add a lot of unnecessary weight that degrades its acceleration, range and stopping distance, all in the name of style. It also makes it much more dangerous in the event of a collision with a pedestrian on a bike path or sidewalk. Face it, the only reason the e-scooters have pedals is to meet the letter of the law. They are in no way MEANT to be pedaled. I myself have NEVER seen anyone riding one of these pedaling, EVER. Could you imagine Harley Davidson putting pedals on their bikes and claiming they were now therefore bicycles? Every time I have ever seen a rider on an e-scooter, they were either hugging the curb, riding in the gutter, or riding on the sidewalk, against the flow of traffic, or riding on a bike path. Basically these riders are scared shyteless of riding in traffic. They do not take the lane, ride aggressively, or in the style of "vehicular cycling" at all. It is because of this that I argue that they are "neither fish nor fowl". They don't belong on the roads, and they are a danger to others on bike paths and sidewalks. My greatest fear is that, because of this, the Ontario Ministry of Transport will ban all e-bikes together, or impose unnecessary restrictions such as licensing and insurance on all of them. E-scooters, because of their weight and size, and the obvious fact that they are not meant to be pedaled, have more in common with mopeds, and should face the same restrictions, insurance, and licensing requirements as mopeds If you want to buy and ride an e-scooter on the roads, that's your business. Just don't claim that it's a bicycle and feck everything up for the rest of us. |
Originally Posted by dewdad
(Post 6895788)
If a mobility scooter is allowed on three or four wheels, why not a two wheeled if the same slow speed is achieved? Example: If a physically disabled tax paying citizen wants to cut through a park on a bicycle path at a slow speed, what business is it of anybodies if he or she is riding on two wheels, three or four and if the speed is attained by muscular power or battery assist?
# of wheels or where the power comes from is not the matter. It is the weight of the vehicle that makes it dangerous. |
Length: 52
Width: 24 Total Weight: 207lbs (w/o batteries) Front tires: 13 pneumatic Rear Tires: 13 pneumatic Drive System: 110amp controller Suspension: Full spring Motor Size: 4-pole Max Speed: 5.8mph Max Range per Charge: up to 30 miles The weight of this mobility scooter is 207 pounds without batteries..and they are capable of 15 kmper hour....Shouldn't they require insuring as well? They can do damage at that speed because of their weight. Speed with little weight is also an issue, and is capable of harming a pedestrian or small child walking through the park...or on a sidewalk like so many cyclists seem to think they belong....My scooter weighs 132 pounds with battery. I am 54 years old I do not ride recklass, nor on a sidewalk. Kids on Bicycles do...Lets insure them. I use my bike for short commutes instead of my car...That is exactly the intent of the pilot program, regardless of what you or another beaurocrat thinks, I am here to tell you that it is a great alternative,,,My Opinion. Cars are dangerous, bicycles are dangerous and skateboarding is dangerous. The speed of an e-bike is maxed at 32 on ideal conditions. The average speed is probably closer to 24 km per hour. When I go to the mall in the suburbs on my scooter style e-bike a distance of 10 km, I am passed by enthusiastic cyclists on my non pollluting journey and I am to be off the road because of the danger factor??? I feel safer on my e-bike because of it;s presence on the road. I am not whipping through cars like a cyclist. If we are going to bring in the danger factor then, all cyclists should wear helmets regardless of age, and should be insured and bikes should be registered. I ride one and I understand the benefits as an alternative form of transportation. To insure and plate them and treat them like a motor bike is not only rediculous but nobody would buy one and would be back in their cars again. Defeats the whole purpose of the vehicle. The riders of these bikes are not cycling customers, they are automobile customers.This vehicle attracts a much larger audience. I meet many others on the road with a scooter style e-bike and they are not the bicycling kind... We want people out of their cars for short commutes, and this is working.. Big Time! 1000s have been sold for this very reason...If they require insurance and plates as some suggest, you can kiss this e-bike goodbye and you will have the same person driving beside you in a car...I really expected a more open mind should exist especially from cyclists...You above all people should appreciate that perhaps another part of the population wishes to experience the feeling of coasting along in the great outdoors. Not everybody can pedal 10 km to work....Not everybody wants to pedal 10 km to work. In my opinion after 45 years on a bicycle and 2 years on this product, they don't go fast enough to require the government to have a hand in my pocket once again.....I would gladly accept a one time registration fee of $125.00 and then why not grab $50.00 off you guys at the same time....careful what you wish for... |
I like electric assist bikes. I think they fill a need for handicapped people. Better than cars, but not as 'green' as a regular bike.
The veloteq thing is not a bike. As I see it, it is a mo-ped. A motorized pedal-able scooter. An electric bike is a bicycle with an electric motor. The veloteq is a scooter with a couple poorly engineered pedals glued onto it. |
Bottom Line Guys is this....Insure these and Plate them and you will get your wish...they will be off the road...No one, including myself would pay to go 30 km per hour....A bicycle does not cut it for me nor 95% of scooter style riders....Back in the Car we go just to get milk bread and juice. If the government has the same mentality then this is what will happen and all you nay sayers can be very happy with yourselves and your negativity. It doesn't have to be a bike...it can be called whatever you want...but it fills a different void and attracts a diiferent customer....
I promise I will stop calling them a bike if you guys open up a bit...LOL Typically, mopeds are restricted to 30-75 km/h (18-47 mph) and engines less than 50 cc Quit Comparing! I agree this is not a bicycle....it is however an E-Bike. something new and something good. |
the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot’s original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted. This has been my point EXACTLY all along. I feel like I've been banging my head against a brick wall since I first posted to this thread! |
The common sense that people have is that the bigger it is, the more dangerous it is. So you're making a claim that's counterintuitive. |
HEAVIER = SLOWER ACCELERATION, LONGER STOPPING DISTANCES, LESS RANGE, + GREATER DAMAGE UPON IMPACT, AS WELL AS GREATER DIFFICULTY UPRIGHTING A FALLEN BIKE. It's really easy to right a fallen motorcycle, by the way. And they're taller/heavier than e-scooters. |
Originally Posted by Golectric
(Post 6892527)
Electric scooters are safer then bikes
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So, you admit that electric scooters are NOT bikes then? I will refrain from calling them bicycles The name's not important. Allowing them to travel in bike lanes, multi use paths and requiring the same licence and insurance requirnments as bicycles is very important to me. Today I had a older gentleman come for a test ride. A couple months back he had double knee surgery. It was hard enough for him to get his leg through a step through scooter style bike. He would have never been able to mount a traditional style bike. He wants to be able to ride to the local coffee shop to meet his buddies. Why should he be required to get a licence? Why should he not be able to use the safety of a public multi use path? This person has worked and paid taxes all his life. Why would he be subjected to harrasment from posters like autoworker and electrogreen? If their so confident on their bikes, let them ride on the roads with the cars. Instead we petition to get the elderly banned from using the very paths their tax dollars went to fund??? |
Originally Posted by Golectric
(Post 6904986)
Why would he be subjected to harrasment from posters like autoworker and electrogreen?
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bike
Noun Informal a bicycle or motorcycle hc_dict()Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006 I think we can agree that a "scooter style" e-bike is a bike...the "bi" part of that word meaning two referring to the number of wheels the vehicle has.... I had a great 15 km ride yesterday and the only honk I got was from a guy passing by in a Smart Car....who gave me a thumbs up. Unfortunate that there is this negative mentality to such a positive product... Overall, the biggest knockers seem to be from the cycling community, not all of course but in general. Methinks they don't want to share. The parks commission would be next as knockers. They would be happier if their were no bicycles on the path, no kids and no dogs. Helluva world we live in nowadays....It seems to be okay to load a bicycle down with a 250 pound person and no one plays the weight card...but put a little cosmetic fairings into the equation to dress up their bike....I have no problem stopping my 132 pound bike with my 150 pound body on it with my drum brakes that are on my bike. My loud audible horn, and my large motorcyle style headlight offers me a lot of safety features riding around at night. My bright coloured cosmetic fairings also catch the eye of any passing motorist.....I of course would never be so bold to ride on the sidewalk as my bicycle cousins seem to do....I guess they think it is their god given right to break the law and pass children on the sidewalk on their way to school...after all....they ride a bicycle...and they can do whatever they want and think whatever they want...and judge whatever they want....too bad we can't play in the sandbox together nicely...LOL I have changed alot of minds by letting the knockers ride my bike...then all of sudden they start to come around.... they are just a really nice alternative from pedalling and driving...and deserve to be anywhere a bicycle is allowed to be... |
^^^^^^You generalize all bicyclists as law breakers. Bicyclists should follow the law. I do. You try to use the lawbreakers to justify your quesitonable use of a motor vehicle as a bicycle.
Your scooter is a motor vehicle and should be treated as such. |
Originally Posted by dewdad
(Post 6895788)
I have noticed that most cyclists on traditional bicycles do not come to a complete stop at designated stops, because of the effort it takes to build up momentum again. Because this is not the case with power on demand, I find that the scooter style riders in general do not break the same law and are more likely to come to a complete stop. I also have noticed the speed going downhill that most cyclist achieve, so they have the ability to get up the hill on the other side. Once again, we have the power to make it up a hill, so this move is not necessary.
I can ride comfortably at 5km per hour on my e-bike on a bike trail as can a cyclist....It is not the vehicle that is a problem it is the rider. I have seen many cyclists at a speed not conducive to the pedestrian traffic. That is why many parks want them banned as well...How do you cyclist feel about that? One bad rider ruins it for everyone. If a mobility scooter is allowed on three or four wheels, why not a two wheeled if the same slow speed is achieved? Example: If a physically disabled tax paying citizen wants to cut through a park on a bicycle path at a slow speed, what business is it of anybodies if he or she is riding on two wheels, three or four and if the speed is attained by muscular power or battery assist? |
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6907185)
If you follow this logic to it's end, then motorcycles, cars, and trucks should be allowed onto bike paths as well. I mean, hey it's not the vehicle, it's the operator, right? I mean I can drive my car at 5km/h, so why can't I drive on the bike path?
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Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6907170)
^^^^^^You generalize all bicyclists as law breakers. Bicyclists should follow the law. I do. You try to use the lawbreakers to justify your quesitonable use of a motor vehicle as a bicycle.
Your scooter is a motor vehicle and should be treated as such. You are obviously against electric bikes in general because of their battery assist...must be nice to be young and healthy...god forbid you are not capable of pedalling anymore because you would require a licence and insurance to travel a mere 32 km per hour to go to the corner store...all of sudden you are on the cash grab side of the government...to bike to the store? BTW...I put in the disclaimer that "most" bicyclists...not all....and this is from what I have observed...not hearsay... |
Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6907170)
^^^^^^You generalize all bicyclists as law breakers. Bicyclists should follow the law. I do. You try to use the lawbreakers to justify your quesitonable use of a motor vehicle as a bicycle.
Your scooter is a motor vehicle and should be treated as such. Just because something has a motor on it doesn't mean it's a motor vihicle. Example: My 2HP remote control car isn't considered a motor vehicle. My nephew's Lego Mindstorms (robotics) has a few electric motors. That's not a motor vehicle. Heck, even those electric powered go-peds (skaeboard with handlebars) aren't considered motor vehicles. |
I certainly do not mean to bash cyclists...I have been one longer than a e-biker.....I do not think the government should interfere with biking of any sorts at a certain speed. 32 km per hour was deemed to be a safe cycling speed regardless of the mode of power...500 watts is the same output a healthy individual attains to travel that speed. I tend to get defensive and combatant with anyone that does not understand the above...
The Department of Transportation conducted a two month study with 369 individuals on power assisted bikes, both Power Assist and Power on Demand...In their findings they found this power and speed safe enough to allow the pilot project in the first place...There are millions of scooter style riders in the world who ride one and agree with that the government should stay out of our pockets at this speed....only some cylists and some motorists disagree..what else is new...not everyone can agree on everything.... |
Originally Posted by maddyfish
(Post 6907185)
If you follow this logic to it's end, then motorcycles, cars, and trucks should be allowed onto bike paths as well. I mean, hey it's not the vehicle, it's the operator, right? I mean I can drive my car at 5km/h, so why can't I drive on the bike path?
The law puts vehicles into different categories for a reason. if we were to follow YOUR logic, then these things should be allowed on roads as well: http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/Admin/Im...og/bigdump.jpg :rolleyes: Don't be stupid man! |
I actually applaud the government to allow us a three year pilot in the first place...They did their homework and realized a need for change....unfortunately there are still close minded, tunnel vision people in the world...I know the same knockers of this product would be up in arms if the government decided to grab a little cash off the cylists with perhaps a one time $35.00 registration fee on the bicycle. The bike trails are not that big of deal to even argue about...the bigger issue is that we have an over abundance of motor vehicles on the road driving and polluting for short commutes. Both styles of e-bikes attract a different and larger audience than just one. As an option to driving both styles are a positive step in the right direction...Licence and create mandatory insurance on either one would drive thousands of people back into cars to go a couple of kilometres....I am glad certain individuals are not in a position to make decisions in regards to planetary concerns...or this planet would be doomed.
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So I looked up the Veloteqs. Probably scooters, and definitely interesting. How fast and how far can those things go?
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Originally Posted by How2
(Post 6873188)
They won't even maintain the regular bike parts. I just don't get the attitude. It is contrary to business profitmaking. So now I will become my own bike mechanic... maybe I should print up business cards.. LOL!
...If you're in Arizona, toss me one of those business cards! :D (Actually, there are some shops that will work on them. In fact, I paid a shop to install my Bionx. ...But I do live in a huge metro area with lots of options.) |
Originally Posted by Autoworker
(Post 6878870)
WAAAHHH! You hurt my feelings!
Lots of name calling and character assassination going on here, but hey, I'm an autoworker, I'm used to it! Love me or hate me, I don't really care. Just refute my criticisms and arguments against the scooter-style e-bikes, or STFU!!! If you or anyone else wants to ride a 175lb hideous parody of a quasi-motorcycle, be my guest. Just keep off the bike paths, and don't try to justify it in the name of the environment or claim that you're riding a bicycle, because you come up short on all counts. You just appear as dorky wannabee motorcycle riders who don't have the balls to get licensed and ride the real thing. Honestly, I like my Bionx for reasons that have been articulated on this thread. I wanted to buy something from at least somewhere in North America. (I wish the U.S. would create a small industry around ebikes, instead of relying on other countries to make them for us, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.) I like the weight, the fact that I can attach it to a variety of bicycles, the pedaling aspect, etc. However, I'm not hatin' on those who like the scooter style. Here's my "logical argument" for the scooter-style ebike. People who buy them like them for reasons of their own just as I like my set-up for reasons of my own. I don't think it's necessary for them to justify themselves to other e-bikers on this forum. I do have some concerns about where they should be ridden. I don't think it's safe to take that much weight and speed potential on MUP's that wind through public parks. They seem to belong more on the street, maybe in the bike lanes if they are as slow (20 MPH or less) as other legal ebikes. |
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