Digikid

I cannot seem to find the page anymore but is this not the year that the new Ebikes laws are coming out of us Ontarians? If so what changes have been made?

Thank You.

stokell

You are not going to like this Digikid. First look at the new Alternative vehicles site:

https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...merging/#power

Now read the bottom of the page:
"The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot's e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot's original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted."

The bottom line is that scooters were never bicycles, and now even before the end of the test, scooters are being kicked out for cheating.

Warmest regards,

stokell

karma

ya its not looking good for the electric scooters like ebike

Digikid

So until then I am still okay. Good.

LesMcLuffAlot

I fear for the future......

Golectric

Stokell, please reread the ministry comments. They are admitting that they need to assess if their original intent was appropriate and they plan to clarify their position. Your unfounded opposition to Scooter style E-bikes is a minority opinion and does nothing but confirm to me that your mind is closed to new alternative forms of green , safe transportation. You like to pedal, that's great. Share the path with people who choose a different style of bike. We will all benefit from more bike paths being created.

Look at the facts and benefits

Scooter style ebikes have proven that they can operate safely over the last 2 years
They are more visible to drivers
They have brake lights and signals
They are very visible at night
They provide more protection from the elements
They provide more crash protection
They are not capable of being pedaled beyond the 32km limit
They take up no more space in bike lanes then an open frame bike
They are allowing people to leave their cars at home
They outsell open frame electric bikes 50 to 1
They are providing an economic benefit in these tough times(to importers,dealers and riders)

Ask yourself, why do you feel threatened by people choosing to use scooter style bikes. Please list the reasons why you feel they should not be allowed.

JakeEdwards

And they are NOT bicycles.

I've read over the legislation and read it differently. The scooter pictures have been removed from the web site.

• They are not any more visible, they look like a faster gas scooter
• They do not provide more weather protection
• Prove they have greater crash protection
• They are not capable of being pedalled much above the 'fall-over' speed
• Prove they outsell bicycles 50:1

BTW: to other forum members. This poster sells electric scooters. I don't sell anything.

crackerdog

I think electric scooters are great. They just aren't bicycles and don't need to use bike lanes or bike paths.

karma

i have also seen first hand with my own tests and others, unlike a hubmotor kit on a bicycle.the scooter syle ebike takes up more of the road and on bussy streets can back up traffic. i guess if every street had a bike lane i would buy one i find them to slow anyway.

Golectric

Never said they were bicycles, they are bikes though https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bike

They most certainly are more visible then most bicycles, especially at night. 90% of bike fatalities occur at night and it is almost always because the rider does not have reflectors or lights, things that come standard on scooter style ebikes

They are capable of being pedaled and meet the federal definition of a power assisted bicycle. The pedals are used to assist the motor up steep hills and are geared accordingly.

As you mentioned I do sell and distribute electric bikes, both styles so I know that the scooter style outsell the open frame style 50 to 1. People who ride bicycles enjoy the exercise and are not really interested in having help from an electric motor. People who want to replace their vehicle for short commutes usually don't want to pedal at all. This is a completely new and emerging market and has the potential to get many cars off the roads. More people using the bike lanes and paths means the government will invest more in the bike lanes and paths we need. This will benefit those that choose to ride a pedal bike also. It seems that there are a few cyclists out there that have this elitist feeling that they should be the only ones to have use of the bike lanes and paths because they actually pedal using only human power. If the Ontario Gov and the MTO decide to ban scooter style bikes I will close my biz down and move on to something else and the thousands of people who have embraced this new bike will again be relegated to riding only on private property as the rest of the country moves forward to embrace this new bike and the many benefits it provides to the common citizens, environment and economy.

The forums can be a distraction of useless battering and argument just for the sake of spouting negativity. I backed away from replying for many months but every once in a while feel the need to post when people post negatively about something they only dislike because it doesn't conform to their personal definition of what a power assisted bicycle is, because it looks like a powerful gas scooter. So far thankfully the law is on our side and so are many professional people and Canadian citizens. Lets hope that the Ontario Government can see beyond the irrational opinions and fear of change that seems to be prevalent on forums like this.

karma

heh im not saying there all bad.this model still looks like a bicycle your siting up and it can be pedaled with no power. in a perfect world batteries dont die electronics dont fry

ever tried pedaling one of the bigger scooters its a joke to low to the ground short crank arms.
and one granny gear. i think thats what the Ministry of Transportation is trying to get across
just because you put pedals on a electric scooter doesn't make it an e-bike. it may work in china
but not in canada. could you see canada's roads like china's? it's never going to happen canadians will
always be aggressive drivers.

driver's pay tax's for repairs and to use the road. im sure down the road the large ebike will to.

Greywolf67

Well I may as well jump in here with some facts..........

All but 2 Provincial Ministry Governing bodies have adopted the Scooter Style E-Bikes as is.
1 out west treats it like it were a full on scooter, thus killing the sales in that area. Why buy a limited speed/limited range when a 50cc would be a better buy.

Ontario which is set to adopt a rule come Oct this year.

I am in hopes Ontario adopts as is right now with no change. Ontario right now can ill afford the loss of small business sales that would come from requiring full scooter status.

I am not in the sales of these but I ride one, and I know should I be forced to plate and insure my e-bike then off to the dumpster it goes and I am off to buy a 50 - 150 cc scooter.

I am proud in the fact that I did almost 1000 KM in total on my bike in the short time I had it on the road, and I did not add 1 bit to smog or sound pollution.

I am in hopes the Green mind set is catching and noticed in Government. I also hope wisdom wins out over gut reaction and norrow thinking people.

I wonder if CCM or Norco came with a model of e-bike scooter style would the same anti scooter voices be as sure.............

Greywolf67

I just thought I would add.....I have a 2008 Motorino XPh ( one of the beefy boys ). Tho some what slow and unstable, due to the wobble in the crank arms, I can peddle my bike.

I would not want to have to peddle to and from work on it, but I am sure I could. However I would be very tired and dripping in sweat, and more then likely rubber legged for a few hours.

Plus add to the fact I will save $2.50 a trip in bus fair, as I usually recharge every 3'rd day or so to be safe, and living in an apartment I don't pay for hydro so it's win/win for me.

stokell

Do I get extra marks for spelling?

I was at my LBS today and they had a really great looking Giant electric bike that had just arrived.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-CA/...ike/460/32790/

Golectric

You should buy one Stokell and give us a report

Greywolf67

That's a good looking bike!! I was wondering about it then watched the video on the site and my questions were answered

It would be nice if they posted a demo ride along with the info vid.

That would be a great second bike for me since I can't use an MTB in a fun way any more. The old knees will not take the rough ride any more.

Digikid

Back on topic.....

Thanks Golectric for making that more clear.

dewdad

Well Said Golectric!

Electric Scooter Style offer another alternative for short commutes. It doesn't have to be a car or a bicycle and that's it. Once again Negative Ontarians sprout their ugly head. These are the relatives from horse and buggy owners that opposed the automobile. They were too fast, too noisy and scared the horses, and would never catch on...LOL

dewdad

Golectric was upfront that he is a importer/retailer and that is why he knows they outsell the open frame e-bike 50 -1. I too am a retailer of both styles and concurr with Golectrics findings. I can certainly pedal the scooter style faster than fall over speed. I don't think Golectric has to prove they are more visible at night, I think you just have look at the lighting system in a photo of a scooter style e-bike and your typical bicycle. 80% of my customers own a car and purchase one to ride on the nice days instead of their car, partly because they are fun and partly because they make sense. A large percentage are the 50 up crowd who aren't looking to go fast, and don't choose to pedal. Some ride to the Gym or the Golf Course or to work or to the store. Nice to have another choice. I have a car, a bicycle and an e-bike and each one I use for a different occasion. Skateboards are dangerous but I wouldn't go on a blog and bore people with my opinion.

Greywolf67

Just added info as to what type of bikes were biggest seller. Thanks to a good read linked in another thread https://www.id-mag.com/article/electricbikes/

Which type of bicycle saw the biggest increase in sales over the past 12 months? You might think it was the fixed-gear bike—the stripped-down racing machine now ridden by every cycle courier and skinny-jeaned hipster worldwide. But it’s electric bicycles that have effortlessly outpaced all others in the retail stakes.

“In 2008, our hybrid bicycles were by far the fastest-growing segment of sales,” says Andrew Juskaitis, communications manager of Giant USA, adding that “Giant has quadrupled its forecast for 2009 on this type of bicycle.”

dewdad

Demographics and Marketing certainly play a major role in which bike sells to whom better. Our company last year at the Green Living Show in Toronto sold 17 scooter style and 2 open frame e-bikes. There is no doubt that both are a great alternative to driving. It is in my experience promoting at trade shows and talking to the masses that our scooter style attracts a completely different clientel than our open frame.
Most of our customers that purchase open frame e-bikes already own a bicycle and are looking at adding the motor because they no longer have the ability or the desire to pedal long distances or uphill. Most of our customers who are attracted to the scooter style are not avid cyclists, but rather automobile users that are looking to augment their driving for short commutes. The intent of the pilot program was never to talk people who own bicycles to add a motor but rather to deter automobile users to consider an alternative for short commutes, which in my findings is exactly what the scooter style offers. As mentioned, both are great, as are bicycles and all three belong on the bike lanes as a result of their limited speed. Bill 126 refers to the changes made in electric bikes in Ontario, and so far none of the changes affects either bike and refers everyone back to the Department of Transportations legal definition not the Ministries Mumbo Jumbo Contradictory Website. I believe all bikes whether electric or not will end up being registered and a mandatory registration fee will take place within the next 5 years, to help with the expanded bike lanes that are desperately needed.

SeizeTech

i think electric bikes of all size shape and configuration should be embraced by Canada.

dewdad

Stokell

How do you explain the scooter style's acceptance into the BC market 6 years ago and the fact that the ICBC also recognizes the scooter style as e-bikes. As well the Electric Vehicle Council of Vancouver has applauded BC for its mandatory installation of charging stations in all new dwellings addressing the fact that some batteries are too heavy to be carried upstairs...Nobody has cheated anybody, there are just old dogs that don't respond to new tricks.

Warmest Regards
Dewdad

dewdad

https://www.icbc.com/registration/reg...std_cycles.asp

Above is the link of the ICBC in BC that recognizes scooter style. It is apparent that cyclists in general do not care for these bikes. Pedestrians and Automobiles do not care for cyclists. Dogs don't like Postmen and so on and so on.
If you are only travelling 30 km per hour or less what difference does it make if you are coasting or pedalling????

karma

heh looks like something my sister would ride thay should all be pink. i dont mind the scooters.
but can thay come out with a scooter thats made for a man?

cheers