sunnyday

I did not install my pedal assist sensor on my bike...I did not think it was needed because I can just apply throttle manually as I feel it is needed......

Is the pedal assist worth installing ? Does it seem to be a better alternative to climbing hills when compared to just pedalling and applying throttle thru the thumb /twist throttle ? I wasnt sure if the pedal assist was designed to apply power more effieicently and automatically when climbing hills and manually pedalling. Perhaps the pedal assist is designed to apply power in the most efficient ranges , helping to save battery energy , when compared to a person who is pedalling up a hill and trying to manually apply throttle ?

jethro56 

I'd like to add the question. "Can one install both systems?"

sunnyday

on my kit, I think you can install both systems...I think there are 2 plugs coming out of my controller...1 for manual throttle and 1 for pedal assist....I will double check..

1 possible disadvantage of the pedal assist is that it would always be trying to engage the electric assist even when one is pedalling without much effort on flat roads....but that could easily be solved by just splicing a on/off toggle switch directly in line of the positive wire of the pedal assist cable that runs to the controller and then fasten that on/off switch on the handlebars for easy access. This would allow the cyclist to switch the pedal assist function on or off as needed...for me, I would only switch it on when approaching and climbing hilly roads....for flat roads and roads with a small slope, pedalling manually is all I want to do and I wouldnt want any electric assist because I need to save battery power for all the large hilly roads.

sunnyday

does anyone know if manufacturers claim that using the pedal assist , is the most efficient way to enage the electric hub motor and save battery energy , when climbing hills...or would using manual throttle while pedalling uphill give about the same results ?

dumbass 

The only reason it could be more efficient is because it limits the amount of power for a given situation whereas, with you controling the power you may give yourself a little added boost. I have tried using PA and I think it's BS and never gave me the correct amount of power I felt I wanted. In most cases it was actually over powering me and the bike would run away. My wife had the same problem too. So I pulled the plugs and took it off all our bikes.

Bob

sunnyday

did the pedal assit feel like it was overpowering, when you were cycling up steep hills of 20 degree grade or more ?

dumbass 

Our setup had an on/off switch and we hated it so much we really never tried in on many hills. But on the flat as soon as the bike got to say 5mph the motor kicked in and the bike would speed up. So at any speed that I was peddling it wanted to go faster. While in the assist mode I could use the throttle to override it but only to increase the speed. Maybe if it had a way to fine tune it I think it might have been a lot better. But I have to question the true value of it. I know when I want power and when I don't. And I know how much power I want/need. So what's the value of it?

sunnyday

well like I said, it may be possible that the pedal assist is programmed to get the utmost efficiency out of the battery pack .

Sangesf

The only "value" is that alot of states and countries require it for thebicycle to be legal.

chvid

PAS sucks. You want power when you want it. You don't want power when you don't want it. Nuff said.

Allen

I have a pedal sensor on my Giant and no grip throttle. I love it. If you want more juice, pedal harder, want less, let up off the pedals--same as on a regular bicycle. It always keeps you in pace with the motor too. It's never out running you (you are never spinning for no reason).

crackerdog

The only advantage I can see is that you wouldn't need a throttle. The disadvantage is that I already have a computer (called a brain) to control how much power I need and my built in computer has sensors (eyes) that can see a hill coming up so I can speed up before I get there if I want.
I tried one and didn't like the lack of control but I now someone here with a Giant and she loves it. Maybe Giant got it right.

dumbass 

Exactly, without a throttle you can not react to changes in your situation. I not knocking the Giant bike or anyone that enjoys it. But I know what happened to me one time that enforces my opinion for having a real throttle. I had a small problem one day while on the trail causing me to have a problem to contribute to the peddling power of the bike. At 10 miles from home I would have been in deep poop if I were riding a Giant or like bike without a throttle. But I was able to just motor my way home and heel to ride again another day.

Bob

vass1234

i have ordered a electric bike in the UK where i live, i know the regs say pas is mandatory but can i bypass someway the pas and fit a throttle, or maybe a different controller which does both and simply disconnect the pas, The reason for my request is i am terminally ill with my lungs, and need oxygen on exertion so peddling is out, throttle is in, i will take my chances with the police, i mean what are they gonna do kill me, ?, so are there any clever technical types out there that could email me and walk me through it assuming it's possible
OH HI ALL DAVE HERE, LOL. Thanks in advance
dave

2old

Many systems, like my BBS02, have PAS (nine levels which IMO are too many) and throttle (which overrides the PAS when applied). I use the throttle when trying to make a light before it changes. I was a proponent of throttle only until I rode a Haibike (PAS only) and really enjoyed the seamless way the power was delivered. Plus, it was defined as a "bicycle" in CA and legal everywhere except private property (where they can make their own rules) AFAIK. Of course, there are plenty of throttle only systems (for instance, in the US Motiv bikes are throttle only AIR). May be different in the EU. Dave, there are kits which have throttle systems; in the UK --- open ebay put, 48V, 1000w and browse. I believe that you'll find a kit like my YESCOM that is inexpensive and functions well. Also go to Pedelecs.co.uk. Lots of help there, especially if Dveh (or something like that signature) answers.

350htrr

I know this is an old thread but I will answer the original question by saying, todays PAS is fantastic at least on my set up and I love it (BionX) and I use it 99% of the time and the throttle about 1% of the time... On the BionX you can order a separate throttle and add it on even tho it's probably not legal in the UK...

2old

I rode a 500w BionX system with PAS only a few days ago and was amazed. As 350 stated, the power comes on like a storm, and feels seamless.

Kopsis

There are two approaches to implementing PAS sensors: crank speed and crank torque. The former is what you find on inexpensive DIY conversion kits and it's pretty crude. The amount of power is simply based on how fast you're pedaling (not the actual load). With many cheap controllers, it's effectively a "binary" throttle (pedals moving = full power). Some controllers try to vary power based on pedaling speed, but there's no way to get this right in all cases (are you pedaling slowly because you need more power or because you're trying to slow down?).

The torque sensor approach is used by high-end kits and fully integrated solutions. It's vastly more effective because it senses how hard you're pushing the pedals and sets power output to match. If you're mashing the pedals trying to get up a hill it senses that and gives you full assist. When you're soft pedaling it can back off the assist (or cut power completely) even though you may still be spinning the crank at a pretty good cadence.

Neither system will "optimize" battery life any better than a hand throttle. The throttle is theoretically better in that you can chose how much assist you want moment-by-moment. You can, for example, try a climb under your own power (no assist) and only crank the throttle if your legs blow up before you reach the top. With PAS you're going to get the programmed amount of assist whether you need it or not. Better PAS systems will let you change the assist level on the fly (or temporarily disable it), but it's more seamless with a throttle.

2old

To each his own; I'll take pedal assist, with throttle override, or if on CA trails PAS only. If that means that I don't know how to use a throttle effectively, even after years of riding and racing motorcycles, so be it. My wife rode a Haibike up a 9 mile, 3000'+ (closer to 4000') ascent with a lot of it on "turbo" mode and back with about 40% of the 400 w/h battery remaining. Even my "crude" BBS02 with rudimentary PAS operates adequately.
Also, the Haibike uses bike speed as well as crank rpm and torque to determine motor output.
I'd like to see your data to prove that a throttle is more efficient.

350htrr

Beg to differ, at least on my BionX system I find a huge difference between using the PAS or using the throttle to extend battery life. Normally I can go 120KM per charge using pedal assist for the whole time on level 1 that equals out to 35% assist added to my pedaling effort as compared to when I experimented with trying to use the throttle I usually only got around 40KM per charge... Probably cause one tends to use more throttle than effort when using the throttle IMO, even when I use the highest level of assist for the whole time at level 4 equalling to 300% effort added to my pedaling effort, I would still get 50KM per charge... Thus It's the extra pedaling effort one MUST put in that allows the range extension I suspect unlike the throttle that one just usually twists more, instead of pedaling harder...

Your first 2 paragraphs I agree with 100%

Kopsis

That just says the BionX throttle controller (you) is poorly optimized for battery life

Kidding aside, it is true that to get better battery life with the throttle, one needs a good throttle (current control, not speed control), and a fair amount of discipline. But in theory one can do better with the throttle because there is a range of assist levels below 35%. Whether normal riders can/should/would take advantage of that is a different question.

350htrr

In theory I can, and do, turn off the assist sometimes, Thus increase the distance traveled even more... Like I said, when using the throttle I ALWAYS get less distance per charge, and I suspect so would most people...

EDIT; And yes the throttle controller, me, uses more and pedals less in throttle mode thus the PAS is more effective for most people IMO...

EDIT 2; As for the finer adjustments between 0%, 35%, 100%, 200%, 300% assist you can just pedal harder or easier to get the power you need/want... So in real life situations you can always go farther using PAS than with a throttle, even when I tried to use as little throttle as I needed/wanted like with the PAS I ALWAYS went farther using the PAS that I managed with a throttle. Why? because the PAS only works when you pedal and put pressure on the pedals, more pressure more assist... self controlling... Self limiting... Self regulating... Precise/consistent assist at all levels...

EDIT3; What you are right about is when you are comparing rotation sensor PAS versus throttle, it would put out 35% at level 1 and always 35% as long as the pedal was turning so yes, with the throttle you would have more control... But the pressure sensor PAS gives the user 100% control at all levels & speeds on level 1 it would give you up to 35% assistance depending on how hard you were pushing on the pedals, anything from 0 to 35%, and so on up to level 4, it doesn't just always give you the full assist for that level...

bobbrooke

[I have a 1500 watt hub motor and disconnected the PAS as I found even at a minimum setting it was too powerful. I just use the hand throttle, and cruise control




QUOTE=350htrr;18615769]In theory I can, and do, turn off the assist sometimes, Thus increase the distance traveled even more... Like I said, when using the throttle I ALWAYS get less distance per charge, and I suspect so would most people...

EDIT; And yes the throttle controller, me, uses more and pedals less in throttle mode thus the PAS is more effective for most people IMO...

EDIT 2; As for the finer adjustments between 0%, 35%, 100%, 200%, 300% assist you can just pedal harder or easier to get the power you need/want... So in real life situations you can always go farther using PAS than with a throttle, even when I tried to use as little throttle as I needed/wanted like with the PAS I ALWAYS went farther using the PAS that I managed with a throttle. Why? because the PAS only works when you pedal and put pressure on the pedals, more pressure more assist... self controlling... Self limiting... Self regulating... Precise/consistent assist at all levels...

EDIT3; What you are right about is when you are comparing rotation sensor PAS versus throttle, it would put out 35% at level 1 and always 35% as long as the pedal was turning so yes, with the throttle you would have more control... But the pressure sensor PAS gives the user 100% control at all levels & speeds on level 1 it would give you up to 35% assistance depending on how hard you were pushing on the pedals, anything from 0 to 35%, and so on up to level 4, it doesn't just always give you the full assist for that level... [/QUOTE]

350htrr

[QUOTE=bobbrooke;18618271][I have a 1500 watt hub motor and disconnected the PAS as I found even at a minimum setting it was too powerful. I just use the hand throttle, and cruise control


Yes, that is/can be a problem with a non pressure sensor PAS, the lack of intermediate settings... On my BionX set up I can have it on any setting from level 1 35%, level 2 100%, level 3 200%, level 4 300% assistance levels. What that means is, if I put 10Lbs of pressure onto the pedals I get
3.5Lbs of push from the motor in level 1, added to my effort or
10Lbs of push in level 2, or
20Lbs of push in level 3, or
30Lbs of push in level 4
If I only put 1Lbs of pressure onto the pedals the assistance I would get would only be,
0.35Lbs of push in level 1,
1.0Lbs of push on level 2,
2.0Lbs of push on level 3,
3.0Lbs of push on level 4.

A very well thought out system and very well executed. Allowing for total control without a throttle...

Robert C

I didn't install the PAS when I built my e-bike. The primary reason is that I didn't have a crank puller handy when I was putting the kit together. I would still want a hand control as a backup.

As I mentioned before, when my daughter got hit by a car she was glad to have a hand throttle so that she could make it home, her leg was too sore to pedal at all.