kando

I am looking for a power solution for touring (Surly Long-haul [Disc] Trucker).
By this, I mean a network of components which will
generate, store, and route power as well as interface with the rider.

Cyclingabout has been invaluable in providing information to get started,
although sometimes I am unsure if any of the information has become dated;
Alee's the man, but one person can only review and test so much at once.

Generation:

Based on cyclingabout's reviews,
bikeforums helped me close on a decision for a dynamo hub (generation).

Bikepacking had a good thread to support the original cyclingabout guide.

I'll probably avoid solar power.

I'll therefore probably get the Shimano T785 (XT).

Storage/Routing:

I want a power setup which will:

• [Everything] Mount securely to the bike.
  During operation: without any flailing components during operation.
  During non-operation: remain on (or least very easily eject from / attach to) the bike,
  (in a way which is convenient for the rider and not for thieves).
• [Everything] Withstand environmental duress (hot/cold temperatures, wet weather, salt, etc).

• [Battery] Include power storage capacity of at least X Wh.
  (What is a good threshold for this?)
• [PC1/Battery] Accept widely varying voltage and currents inputs,
  (consistent with those produced by a dynamo hub at varying ranges of speeds).
• [PC1/Battery] Accept power from varying types of power sources (standard outlet, dynamo)
• [Battery] Automatically self-protect from any overcharging scenarios, regardless of power source.

• [Battery/PC2] Provide power from storage in correct format (quantity of current/voltage) automatically, (independent of device).
• [Battery/PC2] Provide power from storage to at least two devices (light(s), phone, gps, etcetera) simultaneously.
• [Battery/PC2] Interface with the rider regarding which device(s) to provide with power, (including options for none).
• [Battery] Accept generated power to storage while simultaneously passing power from storage to device(s).
• [PC1/Battery/PC2] Provide power from storage to all device(s) steadily (without droops or surges),
  independent of the state of any of the components (generator, battery, device(s)).

Full setup:

• Dynamo hub
• 1st power converter which converts dynamo hub power to that which the battery requires,
  (are there batteries which do not need consistent power to charge?)
• Fair sized battery
• 2nd power converter
  which enables/disables battery power to multiple channels (one per device), as specified by the rider, and
  which converts battery power delivered to each channel, as specified by the rider.

Flowchart:

Generator (Dynamo hub) -->
[Power Converter 1?] -->
Battery -->
Power Converter 2 / Switchboard -->
Light(s)/phone/GPS


For these reasons, I'm currently considering:

Busch& Miller (B&M) Lumotec IQ2 Luxos U (~$260)
[Power converter, internal battery, dynamo light]

This sounds almost perfect.
Power is conditioned for the internal battery.
The battery keeps power flow consistent to the devices, (light and 1-2 usb devices).

On the downside, the battery is small in capacity.
An external would need to be connected in series,
defeating the convenience of the integrated user interface.

The dynamo light has great reviews in terms of providing light.
Unsure about efficient use of power.
The device also forces daytime lights, I believe.

The component bolts on to the bike (theft resilient).

(I wish it made use of power-amplification during low-speed use, like the Plug III,
but this is why I think it is just better to go direct to battery and convert from an energy bank.)

My concern is the long-term reliability reviews available:
there's relatively few reviews in total, and of them,
some have mentioned failure (by wetness, most likely).

Further confusing is that the initial models appear to have been faulty,
but that later issuances of the device potentially cleared these issues up.
I am having trouble discerning if the new models continue to have problems.

This review (comment #2020873) mentions that the lights were unreliable until after May 2013.
This thread understandably has comments complaining of the early failures in 2013.

This review (2014.01.29) recommends the product. (I'm unsure whether he has the new or old release.)
This review (2015.03.21, in the comments) notes that additional steps have definitely been taken to seal the later release.
This review (2015.10.19) complains of failure in a newer model. (This puts the fear of god back into me.)
This review (2016.07.06, in the comments) notes problems didn't occur until 10k with heavy stress. (Very good.)

I would need to find an acceptable external battery
to use in conjunction with this device.

Does anyone argue against putting your dynamo light and your charging line
in the same bin, because failure could cost you both?

Tout Terrain - The Plug III (~$215)
[Power converter, low-speed amplifier]

This model amplifies power at low speeds.
It is (very likely) waterproof.
The component bolts in to the bike (theft resilient).

This device does everything it can to adhere to USB standards, which is 5V and 0.5 A.
This can be a boon for devices which require USB standards,
but apparently can be problematic (2015.04.20, in the comments)
for devices which attempt to pull over this amount of current.
(The link provided even suggests considering the Luxos instead.)

I would need to find an acceptable dynamo light and external battery
to use in conjunction with this device. [Pricey.]


Pedal Power+ Super I-Cable and vi4 External Battery. [~$290]
[Power converter, internal battery, external battery]

Has internal battery.
Sounds like a hassle to mount and dismount.

Several reviews have considered this device to be reliable.
This review (2012) found this device to be unreliable.

I would consider using this in conjunction with the Pedal Power+ vi4 battery,
which allows for charging up to 4 devices at once.

I would need to find an acceptable dynamo light to use in conjunction with this device.

noglider 

It sounds like you'll be building your own, since the market doesn't provide what you need.

steelbikeguy

Interesting problem... I don't have experience with these products, but have been tinkering with Schmidt hub dynamos and run some experiments to see how much power can be extracted at different speeds.

One basic limitation of hub dynamos is that even in the best circumstances, only 6 or 7 watts can be extracted when traveling 20mph. Lower speeds will produce less power. If you are trying to charge an Apple product that expects to be able to pull 2 amps from a 5V source, the dynamo will never be able to do it.

If you want to charge a battery pack, then that's more reasonable. You'll still need to estimate how much power and energy your devices will require and how much the dynamo will be capable of delivering.

Your best option might be to find a dealer that is willing to let you try out some of the devices that you are considering. ... but if you get lucky and one of the bike forums members knows the answers to your questions, I'm interested in hearing what their experiences have been.

good luck,
Steve in Peoria

kando

In which way?
It seems like most of the setup mentioned is possible and realistic.
I understand that the perfect setup is not available,
and that I'll need to take what I can get.

I just posted what I'd considered,
in hopes that someone might question
any part of my thought process which seemed skewed.

I'm a newb here, so I was making sure no one said
"[this] won't work with [that]" or
"you're going to need a [this] also" or
something along those lines.

I'm probably going to go with the B&M.

I posted what I'd found about it;
I can at least come back after a long while
and post my experiences with it, since it sounds great.

noglider 

I hope you come back soon and tell us your findings and about whatever you buy or build. I like the way you think ahead of the market.

Drew Eckhardt 

Order your German dyno products from Germany instead of sending some one else's children to college. When I got my dynamo setup earlier this year the Luxos U was $103 at starbike. bike-discount.de also had good prices.

I opted to separate lights and USB power supply so I'd have multiple failure domains, and wouldn't automatically lose power to my GPS when I turned on my light.

In my case that was a Schmidt Edelux ii for $125 and USB-Werk for $54 from starbike.

The Edelux ii shares optics with the B&M Cyo Premium ($58 at the time), but has a nice shiny silver aluminum case instead of plastic. It's great.

The USB-Werk is great for my Garmin Edge 800 GPS, but doesn't deliver enough current to keep my Samsung Galaxy S5 charged in rolling hills. If I was relying on power hungry devices like that I'd try the E-Werk with external cache battery, or maybe the current Tout Terrain with steerer mounted cache battery (but am still running a 1" steerer tube frame, and haven't even updated from my threaded fork).

I'd avoid a non-integrated cache battery. With the boost from 5V DC to what it takes to charge the battery you can lose 20% of your limited power output.

znomit

Have a look at Klite, I'm sure he will be able to sort you out a system.
kLite.com.au Dynamo Lighting Systems

rifraf

G'day Kando,
I suggest a little more reading and research to find out exactly what you can expect to be able to charge so your not horribly disappointed having spent a small fortune first.

I have a dynohub on my bikes front wheel and an E-werk and a cache battery.
I initially got the dynohub to power my Edelux headlight and was lucky enough to come across tales of the E-werk in other forums.
The unit has little output when the lights are on but as I don't tour in the dark due to the impossibility of finding a campsite in the dark, its not an issue for me and the lights get the bulk of their use commuting.

I found I could successfully keep on top of my touring power needs, most of the time, by keeping my phone switched off when not using it and charging alternately my Garmin Edge, my Petzl rechargeable headlight torch and my phone.

I need to think ahead and prioritise my charging and thinking how many hours will put how much charge into each item.
Tricky at first but no real issue once you've got the swing of things.

The E-werk can be set up for varies voltages and amperages but mines set up to at normal USB output as electrickery is way over my head and I simply like my fit and forget system.

I've since bought another dynamo hub and E-werk for my trailer in anticipation of purchasing a Sony camera which can be charged via USB, as well as a larger than my bikes cache (storage) battery to assist keeping my tablet in power.

I came across a utube clip of a bloke with the same trailer as me with dynohub. He has added wind vanes to his trailer wheel so when parked up, he turns his trailer upside down to take advantage of any decent breeze to keep his trailer charging when he not cycling.


Some new technology suggesting even greater power from dynohubs is the Forumslader, but I'll have to let you research that one yourself as I've not heard much about it yet and most of what info is out there is in German, which I neither speak nor read.

As for the B&M lights, I'm not a fan of plastic housings and a member of one of my local online forums posted this the other day about his Luxos 179U :

Re-design a light - Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

noglider 

If you decide you need more power than any of these dynamos or batteries provide, you can get more than one. It might be extreme, but it certainly is possible to run a hub dynamo and a bottle dynamo at the same time. In fact, you could probably install four bottle dynamos on a bike. Pedaling would be hard, but you'd be making a fair bit of power.

It's a bit like calorie counting for controlling your weight. Your fuel burning needs to balance your food consumption if you want to keep your weight.

kando

Wonderful responses all around, everyone.
Thank you for your input.

I rewrote my original description to clarify areas which
I believe I did not communicate correctly as well as areas on which I am still unclear.

Here's some follow-up too.

I do not believe this will be the case.
I would assume a single hub dynamo would cover typical needs, no?

Current prices:
starbike (converted to $) is $135 + $34 shipping = $169
bike-discount.de is $103 (but states cannot sell to US and will not provide shipping costs)

Is this typical, that only one device can receive power at a time on, say, a full battery?
I assumed this was fine.

Isn't an external cache non-integrated?
Can you elaborate this?

What is 5V DC? The output of the dynamo?
What is performing the boost?
Where is the loss occurring?
Can you elaborate this?

Do you go:
generator --> e-werk --> battery --> usb device, or
generator --> battery --> e-werk --> usb device.

Does all of this little output go to the battery in your setup?
Does a battery reject an output too small?

From a generalized standpoint, I would think this is fine,
excepting that sometimes USB trickle charge is less than the power drawn by the device,
and if the device itself doesn't have spare charge to burn in its battery,
it will not remain on (only a problem in emergencies, I suppose).

kando

This graph is probably a start.
It at least differenciates bottle and hun dynamos for me : j

rifraf

[QUOTE=kando;19019871]Wonderful responses all around, everyone.

I go:

generator--> e-werk --> battery --> usb device.



Yes, any output over and above the lights needs (when they are on) goes to the battery.

I don't think the battery rejects small output, but with the lights on and speed slow, a devices needs can be greater than whats going into the cache battery.
In this case, the cache battery drains and then so does the device internal battery.
I've not ever run completely out of device power but have seriously depleted my cache battery to the point of the device battery starting to drain.
Not really an issue on tour as I don't tend to tour in the dark due to the impossibility of spotting a suitable camp site in the dark.



The larger Garmin Edge models usually have in excess of more hours cache internally than one wold normally drain in an evening riding. The claimed 15-18 hours is in my experience more akin to half that but thats usually still plenty.

kando

So, you power convert to your battery, which outputs to USB by default.

Does your battery limit output to standard USB output (5V/0.5A)?
How do I know if a battery will allow for up to 2A output,
when requested by the device?


(For instance, my android phone will pull 2A when allowed by the device.)

rifraf

G'day Kando,
Sorry mate, no idea.
I have no intention of reading the entire manual to find out (non fiction is as boring as bat pooh).
Much rather be reading Lee Child, James Lee Burke or similar
I asked in forums for a a fit and "forget" solution to keeping my Edge 800 charged as well as my phone and headlamp torch (Petzl Tikka 2 XP) and the Son28 with E-werk with cache battery was the most common reply from people I knew who actually toured and not simply posted opinions in forums.
I simply don't care enough to learn how it works.
It does and thats good enough for me.
I was so impressed I bought a second system the same for my trailer. (The same bar a different bigger cache battery)

I put my phone in airplane mode or off, except when I'm actually using it for something, in an attempt to use as little power as possible.
When I leave home everything is charged.
It takes some hours of riding to put some serious charge into the phone when empty but not as much for the Edge or Petzl.
Thinking ahead helps me keep on top of it easily enough.
The genuine Ewerk cache battery has a pretty small 1400 mAh as its purpose is really to act as a buffer

Info on the E-werk battery: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/dynamos/...ry-for-ewerk/?

Info on the E-werk itself: Busch & Müller E-WERK Charger

noglider 

I took a 69-minute ride last week, and ridewithgps tells me how long I spent at each speed. I made a spreadsheet with that data plus the power output of the Shimano hub as specified in the graphic you posted.

The spreadsheet lists some assumptions, some of which we know are wrong, but they are place for starting.

You fill in the cells with the yellow background. I filled in that I need three gadgets fully powered on the whole ride. That won't be the case on all rides. On this ride, I theoretically created a deficit of 4.27 watt-hours. On rides when you don't need the headlight or to charge the smartphone, you would create a surplus of power in the battery.

Tweak the numbers and see what you get. Tell me what you think.