Hi All,

I've wandered in here from the Touring forum and am hoping to pick your collective brains in relation to GPS

I'm putting together the preparations for an 18-24 month tour and am looking at GPS as a back up to local maps / guidebooks within my own specific requirements. I'll be traveling across Canada (East to West), down through the US, Mexico and around south America.

First of all, I'm not a great gadget person, but I've been trying to get my head around the different systems out there and how they work.

Second of all, my needs are (I think) quite specific;
I don't need cadence sensors, heart rate monitors etc. Tracking is nice, but not essential. I don't think I need downloadable maps (I'll have a phone & cheap tablet that I hope to be able to download maps on when I'm in civilization). But input on that decision is welcome.

My ideal unit will have:
Regular battery power, not a rechargeable battery.
Ability to import gps tracks from a phone or tablet - not a computer
Follow these GPS tracks using breadcrumbs
Idiotproof & reliable

I don't think I want to use my phone connected through Bluetooth for navigation which is available as an option with some units. This is down to charging issues and possible lack of connectivity / data allowances.

I'll have a hub dynamo and solar panel for charging needs.

I've borrowed a Garmin Edge Touring for the past month and am appalled at how badly it operates. It freezes regularly, can't follow preloaded routes, gets confused at the start and end of routes, can't deal with a route that crosses itself and is positively dangerous in cities - it just cannot operate fast enough. This experience has seriously dented my impression of Garmin and I would approach their products with caution.

So, does anybody have any recommendations for a simple GPS unit that can load tracks via phone/tablet (Android).

Or do I just use my phone?

I'm in Europe if that affects the situation.

Many thanks

Frank

if the touring would work other than the horrible software, you would probably be fine with a Wahoo Element Bolt. Someone I know used it on a 1200km brevet in Korea recently, and had nothing but praise. Get a battery pack that uses normal batteries to charge it, if that's important.

Thanks for the tip!

I hadn't come across this before. I've read up on it on the threads here and apart from the batteries it ticks all my boxes - especially in relation to not needing a P.C.

Thanks again

Frank

It seems like you want a GPS that is only going to indicate current position, so as to verify on the paper maps, where you think you are, determine distance to a stopping point, etc...

As opposed to using a dedicated GPS that has routing capabilities. Garmin and Wahoo (as well as others) will do routing, but that begs the question as to how to develop routes a 1-1/2 year or so in the future, that allows flexibility. I don't see you generating in advance the ENTIRE route for 24 months, much less downloading that to a device.

Both a Wahoo (RideWithGPS) as well as Garmin (Connect) can generate routes and the easiest way to do this is on a computer by accessing the websites. This could easily be done on a tablet that also has web access. That would then allow a smartphone or tablet that has web access, to dump the route to the device via BlueTooth.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks for replying.

Don't worry, I'm not going to attempt to try to plan out my route months in advance! :-) That would not be my idea of touring :-) I much prefer to wander, hence the desire for a digital aid.

I see myself using this in 2 ways;
1. In case of emergency. Be able to plot a route to the nearest town/station/airport etc. For this I would need routing capabilities.
2. There are already a lot of gps tracks out there. Depending on where I am I'd like to be able to add them to my device simply as a back up to paper maps. Therefore, I see myself "borrowing" others gps tracks rather than creating them myself on a phone/tablet. I won't be heading off with 24 months worth of maps, either, and I may not be able to always have the quality of map that I want. In those cases, I'll hopefully have the gps tracks to assist.

The Garmins I looked at can do 1, but can only download to the device via usb from a P.C. (They can upload data via bluetooth). Plus my experience with the Touring has left me with strong doubts as to reliability.

The Wahoo doesn't need to connect to a PC at all - it's all done through an app. From what I've read it will do what I want it to do, both 1 and 2.

Thanks for the input.

Frank

The Garmin Touring is a dog of a GPS unit, no doubt. I've yet to read of anybodies positive experiences with one. The 520 is far superior and I think a recent OS update gives it much better on screen mapping, though I don't think it'll let you pick a point to navigate to from the on unit map. An 820 or 1000 will do that. Not sure of the Bolt.

Garmin Connect let's you import tcx files, so I think you can add courses from RideWithGPS. Not sure if you can create a new Garmin course from an imported file though, I'd have to check that, never done it. Obviously you would need WiFi and internet to access Connect, but once you create a course in Connect, it's immedialty available to a smartphone or tablet with data or internet (via the Garmin Mobile app). Then it's a simple BlueTooth download from the smartphone or tablet to the Garmin device, no USB or cable needed. I use this feature all the time, it's great.

osmand
If you have a smartphone or tablet, using Android, the free or low cost Osmand lets you download regional maps and store them on the device. Then you just need a GPS signal.

It's not the best solution for navigating while riding along (since the phones or tablets displays aren't good in bright sunlight, etc.) I rode with a rider that had the osmand voice prompts with the phone in his back pocket. Never tried it myself that way.

But osmand launches quickly and shows you where you are, and what's nearby. It's way easier to browse omsand maps by panning and zooming than it is with my old Garmin 705. And osmand shows hill and mountains with shading and countour lines. With Garmin's reputation, the newer models are probably annoying to use as a map browser, too.

Osmand can import routes and display them on the map. It can be a little complicated, so get used to the method of importing before your trip. I've only tried route imports via a USB cable. Maps and map updates are normally downloaded via wifi.

It can calculate a route to a destination -- but it's not as sophisticated as a google maps route, you may need to route to a few intermediate points to force it to follow your preferred route when riding a bike.

I reviewed osmand in this thread.

I highly recommend a Garmin. Go to an outlet and pick one. I am still using my 60 CSX, a very old model with color screen. Have never failed me. I use it when I go back packing, kayaking, hiking and bike camping. It runs on 2 AA sized batteries. With a normal Energizer, the batteries lasts for 18 hours. The data is not lost when you change the batts. Even have a handle bar holder.
Get one with trekking capabilities.

[QUOTE=rm -rf;19698697]osmand
If you have a smartphone or tablet, using Android, the free or low cost Osmand lets you download regional maps and store them on the device. Then you just need a GPS signal.

Thanks rm,
I am familiar with OSMand. In fact I've been using it in the car and on the bike for the last couple of years. Actually, my current quest is because I've decided that as good OSMand is, I'd like a dedicated navi device for backup.

For love nor money I cannot upload gps tracks to OSMand on my tablet!
And in the situations when I do take it out to plot a route the conditions make using a tablet less than convenient - picture rain, wind, darkness, dodgy road conditions!
I did try just following the voice commands through a headphone..... I wouldn't recommend it :-) Certainly not in a city!
If my specific GPS unit search comes up negative, then I'll look at OSMand again. It would probably make more economical sense to buy a dedicated phone/holder/protective case just for navigation.

Hi Steve,
just went to try it out on the Touring...... no bluetooth capability! :-))

Yeah, that certainly doesn't help. BT is really, really useful on my 810.

I've tried twice to get a TCX course I created in RWGPS into Garmin Connect, no luck but I think maybe something odd with the RWGPS file as I've done TCX successfully. Will play around tomorrow

If I was buying new and just wanting cycling, I'd get a Bolt in a heartbeat. The company seems responsive to user problems, unlike Garmin, even though I am very happy with my 810.

Thanks Unterhausen! A great recommendation!

I got my hands on an Elemnt (not the Bolt, but the same software I understand) and while it currently does not allow fully offline syncing, I am assured that it is a ticket item and that it will be adressed.

It's ease of use places it streets ahead of the Garmin Touring I tried.

I just wanted to let you know that the Wahoo Elemnt works perfectly with OSMand! I can create my route in OSMand (the app on my phone), transfer the GPX file into the Elemnt app and from there transfer to the unit.

Currently, I need wifi/data to transfer from OSmand to the App, thereafter it's Bluetooth, buth Wahoo have assured me that this will not be the case in the future.

What that means is that the Elemnt used in conjunction with OSMand offline will be able to create routes on the fly without any need for Internet access.

Many thanks for your input,

Frank

Hi Steve,

I've tried the Elemnt and am very impressed! What you say about the responsiveness of the company is spot on! I was very impressed with their responses.

The Elemnt lets you import files from a number of sources. My preferred is OSMand - I've been using it for a few years. I create the route, save it, transfer it to the Downloads folder on the phone, open it in the APP (currently an internet connection is required for this step), then using Bluetooth transfer to the unit.
But I've also imported Ridewith GPS routes and other miscellaneous tracks with no issues whatsoever.

Once the need for interent connectivity is dropped, this will work exactly as I need it.

Many thanks for your input

Frank

Glad to offer a bit of experience. Others to be thanked here as well, good advice to be found.

If I didn't use Garmin Connect and a Garmin Swim Watch, which are the best options for swim tracking, IMO, I never would have gone to Garmin for GPS tracking, especially as there's a lot if internet buzz of continual problems. My 810 has been very useful and reliable and I do like it. Wahoo though, seems to have learned from all of Garmins problems and if doing this today I would be using a Bolt.

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but wanted to update some information.

Wahoo have dropped the priority on making the processing of routes (on the app) independent of data/wifi.
The ticket item was closed, I'm told it's now reopened, so if anyone sees the value in this, please contact Wahoo.

Currently to create/process a route the app has to ping the cloud - meaning data/wifi is required.
If that need to ping was dropped, you can create a route on the fly without going online - assuming you have offline maps on your phone/tablet. It's doable, just not a priority :-(

Frank

The Wahoo app isn't "pinging the cloud" (no one knows what you mean by that).


The Wahoo calulates the route on there website (using maps on their website). It's the same sort of thing that RWGPS does.

Having it done on the phone would require redoing all that programing.

[QUOTE=njkayaker;20270014]The Wahoo app isn't "pinging the cloud" (no one knows what you mean by that).


The Wahoo calulates the route on there website (using maps on their website). It's the same sort of thing that RWGPS does.

Having it done on the phone would require redoing all that programing.[/QUOT

Hobbes stated "app has to ping the cloud - meaning data/wifi is required", so while the use of "ping" likely isn't really what's happening, we know that the device needs data service.

But begs the question of how would the Wahoo smartphone app generate a route with no on device map data base ?. Or, do you (Hobbes) essentially want a method to view maps and generate a route with no data service to access the web based mapping software ?. I think that might work on a tablet, where the screen size is sufficient to use the course generating software, but I have no luck trying this on a iPhone as the mobile app for RWGPS is just hard to use for route planning (IMO).

So I would want to have data service to plan routes. I would then plan a lot of routes and port then to the device.

EDIT, The iPhone RWGPS app doesn't even have a Plan option and of course there's no method to get a course created on an iPhone to a Garmin, so moot issue (for my Edge 1000). The Garmin Connect iPhone app does let you plan a course and you can then get it to a device, but only when it has cell data or WiFi, as it accesses the web to generate the map data.

So as far as I can see you need cell data or Wifi to generate routes/courses and if using a smartphone to create a RWGPS route, you will need to access to the website.

Staying that it needs data service is how it should have been described. ("Pinging" is jargon and not even being used properly.)
RWGPS is hard to use even on a 7 inch Android tablet. RWGPS has mobile/small-screen mode that makes route planning harder. It might work better with a mouse.


For traveling, it's useful to be able to plan routes without internet access. One can use Garmin's Basecamp on a Windows tablet.

RWGPS doesn't need route planning on its app. You should be able to use the website (though, iPhones are still too small for that). Getting routes onto a Garmin from an iPhone is a problem (that's one reason I have an Android tablet ).

The maps.me does routing off line (it just needs to allow multiple points). "Brouter" is an Android app that does bicycling routing that can be called from OsmAnd. One can use Garmin's Basecamp on a Windows tablet.

My apologies.

I used the terminology that Wahoo used with me. To me it suggested a definite, yet insubstantial, contact between the app and server it uses to process requests.

To my non-technological mind, it would seem similar to the way my mobile phone "pings" mobile phone towers - I'm not making a call, both tower and phone are communicating with each other.

For the record, I am not trying to plan a route offline using the Wahoo App. I may as well use my Ebay app.
I'm talking about a situation where I can plan a route offline and create a gpx file (also offline), using, for example, Osmand.

In this case, everything can be done on the phone. However, the Wahoo app will not process this (new) gpx file until it can "ping" the cloud - data/wifi is necessary.

Now, the practicalities of planning a route on a phone or tablet are a whole other discussion. Personally, I wouldn't do it a lot - except it's a very handy thing to have in an emergency situation.

In any case, my last post was simply to let anybody know who may be interested in a Wahoo product based on my older post that the development of a "pingless" situation was still a ways off.

Frank

That's it, Steve.

I want to use OSMand, which can be done totally offline so long as the maps are downloaded.

This is not for general planning (for want of a better description), but for those emergency times when you need to change your destination at short notice.

Online route planning on a phone or tablet is not the most pleasant of tasks! but it can be done.

Of course, I could just use my phone (or tablet) in those circumstances, but the times I have wanted to use these "emergency" routes invariably involve heavy rain, crappy paths and sometimes some dodgy areas - times when a discreet gps device is simply handier and safer.

Wahoo told me that the "ping" was not necessary and could be removed. I just wanted to let people who may be swayed towards a Wahoo device for this reason that it is still not resolved.

I'm in Holland and a phone signal is not an issue here, a bit more erratic in some parts of Europe. I'd imagine it's a bigger deal for people on the other side of the pond where there's more open space and less cell phone towers.

The Garmin Touring device has the ability to select a destination on the fly, but my experience with the unit overall was that it was totally unreliable. It crashed regularly, lost routes regularly and totally undermined my confidence in its ability to guide me in an emergency.

I'd imagine that the ability to create and use a route on the fly (albeit using third party apps) without the need for data/wifi would be a big selling point for a GPS device.

Frank

Interesting.

There is no reason or value to program an "insubstantial, contact between the app and server".

Generally, the programming for iOS/iPhone and Android is very different. It's basically two programs to write and maintain. Different phones and versions of operating systems make that even more complicated.

The approach Wahoo is very probably using (other companies use the same approach) is to do most of the work (dealing with map data and routing) on shared servers and have the phone-app to do just what they need to do (and act as an interface to the programs on the server). This lets them use the same routing/map code on computers that don't run their app (one program supports iOS/every version of Android (even on cheap slow phone's), and every version of Windows, MacOS, and Linux).

This is different because it is basic to how cellphones work. They need to keep track of were you are so the can connect incoming calls to you.

It's not "pinging". It's almost certain that a lot of the processing is occurring in the server.

As far as I understand, the gpx file has to be uploaded to Wahoo's servers before it can be loaded to the Wahoo unit.

Wahoo would want to support uploading gpx files from any computer (not just from smartphones with their app). Setting things up that everything has to be uploaded to the server means writing code once (rather than having to write and maintain 3 or 4 different programs).

I have no idea what sort of the is actually loaded to the unit (it might not be a good file).

The Touring wasn't very reliable. The ancient 800 worked much better. Other units likely work better too. I suspect the standard Garmin units get better attention to fixing bugs.

When I travel to Europe, I don't have a cell plan. Internet access isn't always a given either. One time, I was on a boat that capped internet access. Doing routes in RWGPS was enough to exceed the cap.

There isn't any reason it should be such a pain. At least on a tablet (phone screens are kind of too small). It's not too bad using a Windows tablet (using a mouse makes it easier).

Thanks Alexander,
I already use a Son dynohub connected to a battery pack using a Cycle2Charge connection.
It works really well, generating enough power to recharge the GPS unit and phone pretty much every day, with enough left over to top up my kindle. I also use the battery pack to recharge AA & AAA batteries for lights & camera.

For back up on longer trips I also use an older solar panel. I've found that it's not terribly efficient strapped on the bike. It comes into it's own though, when I'm stopped. Since I tend to stop a lot it supplements the dynohub :-)


I've had no issue with OSMand maps (only used it in Europe), but thatnks for the HereWeGo tip. I'll check it out!

Thanks

Frank

Edit: Saw your signature! Good one! :-)

Again, I used the terminology here that Wahoo used with me.

They told me it wasn't a necessary step and that they would remove it.

I advertised the fact that they would remove it.

I'm just letting people know who may be influenced by this feature that it is still a work in progress.