Carbonfiberboy 

I lead a lot of group rides, using RWGPS to publish routes and TCX files to the group for the rides. However sometimes my TCX files don't pop up a turn notification on my Garmin 800 and on the Garmins of others. We all have turn notification turned on. Sometimes on a route, some of the turns work, some don't. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with reusing the routes of others. Often I'll copy someone else's route to my account and then edit it, changing some things, cleaning out unnecessary notifications, etc. The turn notifications all show up on cue sheets and in the Garmin list of turns, just the occasional missing pop-up(s).

Any ideas?

njkayaker

Are you talking about "course points" (small icons with short text) or "turn guidance" (big white arrows)?

Turn guidance works the same for tcx and gpx.


Course points are only available with tcx files.

There's no mysterious bad juju using other people's routes.

The problem with course points is that they are very location dependant.

Keep in mind that the map you are using might not match where you are riding exactly.

When I use course points, they often pop-up after the turn.

RWGPS will position the course points earlier in the track (it's a subscription feature). Bikeroutetoaster will make a copy of the course point (there will be two of each ).

The 1030 appears to move the course points earlier itself (the rwgps option isn't necessary).

Unfortunately, other than moving them, there isn't any way to make them more reliable.

Carbonfiberboy 

On a text page, the "distance to next" doesn't count down to the missing turn - it counts to a future turn after the missing one. What should happen is that at .13 miles, on a text page a box should come up showing the turn (course points), and then it should flip over to a turn detail map with the big white arrows (which are sometimes wrong and usually block out the street names, course, etc.) On some turns it works fine, some not at all. Yesterday, it didn't work for maybe the first 4-5 turns, then it came on and worked for the whole rest of the course. On the map, our icon was moving along the route properly. It happened that this time I had edited the beginning of the ride, saved, and exported.

I don't use GPX files.

When exporting, I unclick the Notify box, change the default 30 meters to 100, reclick the Notify box, then click TCX Course.

I have a premium membership.

njkayaker

Turn guidance and course points work separately.

Turn guidance uses the map on the device. Using the same map data to create the course works better. People typically use Google maps on rwgps to create the course and Garmin CN maps n the device. Newer Garmins (starting with the 1000) come with OSM maps. RWGPS allows your to select OSM maps. How

Turn guidance can have issues if the map doesn't match the real world fairly closely.

Course points don't require maps at all (course points are one can get turn instructions on units like the 500/510.) The course point locations have to match the real world fairly-closely.


Sometimes, the problems don't have a clear reason.

Other than what I mention here, there isn't any way to finess the course to work better.

Carbonfiberboy 

In this case, when we're not getting turn notifications, neither course points not turn guidance is working.

I use OSM maps on the Garmin. Are you saying that I would get more consistent results if I also use OSM on RWGPS when I do my routes? I normally use Map. Sometimes when I switch to Satellite I can see that the Map route isn't matching the Satellite view.

Also, would we be better off if we didn't turn on Turn Guidance on the Garmin? Stoker actually hates the Turn Guidance map that comes up because the big white arrows obliterate the information on the map which she may need.

njkayaker

There are a few things going on.

The tcx/gpx files are just a list of points that trace your intended path. For turn guidance, the unit walks the track to determine what roads on the map installed on the device. If the track doesn't follow those roads fairly-closely, this process can miss roads/turns.

If the track/map doesn't match the real world, as far as the device understands, you've gone off road. You won't get announcements if you are too far from the turn on the map.

The units have some tolerance for discrepancies but it's not unlimited.

Your primary concern is to keep the stoker happy.

People might prefer doing different things.

Given that, I think that keeping an eye on the map makes navigation more reliable. I often know about turns before the announcement and, if you miss an announcement (or it doesn't happen), you'll see that you are off course fairly-quickly.

For turn announcements, the turn guidance (big white arrows) is much more clear and reliable than course points. I don't really need to see the street name. The devices work in a particular way. I wouldn't fight it. I haven't tried moving the course points (yet). I don't really need it (I don't have a subscription) but that might work ok (but you won't always get all of them).

If you get the white-arrow pop-up, you can tap the screen to make it go away (tap the "go back" text).

I use looking at the map, course points, off course warnings, and turn guidance. I'm used to how each of these work.

I rarely have problems with the 800 and I see map discrepancies fairly frequently. (I try to update OSM when I find them.)

The 800 usually picks up the course if I leave and return to it. If it doesn't, restarting the course usually fixes things (pick a leg that doesn't overlap and restart it while moving in the right direction) .

If the route is long (multiple centuries), consider splitting it up. If the route crosses over itself, consider splitting it.

Carbonfiberboy 

OK, I get that. And AFAIK, our position token stays on the route on the Garmin's map and everything looks normal. As you say, Stoker can see the turn coming on the map, but no notification. So she tells me "go right on 137th" or whatever because she sees it coming and can read the road name or get it off the cue sheet which we have for backuip, very useful sometimes.

In any case, my impression is that you haven't seen our particular problem on your devices.

njkayaker

I probably have seen it but not often. I can deal with the issues that arise (except rarely).

We are using the same device (likely the same firmware) and the same route planner. It's possible there's something odd about your device.

I don't have any info about where you had the problem (so I could be missing something).

I rarely don't get the white-arrow pop-up. If I don't get it, it's usually explainable as a map/real-world/track discrepancy. You can see this when you have a lighter purple line (the turn guidance route) separating from the darker purple line (the track). Or when your cyan recorded paths separates from the course.

I've used the CN and OSM maps. I don't use cuesheets at all.

I blow turns once in a while but that's not that hard to deal with.

What zoom level do you typically use? I use 200-300 feet.

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Sometimes, you'll see a separation because the turn-guidance route takes a shortcut. That's a quirk but it's not common.

unterhausen

when this happens to me, I usually find that I have let one of the control points on rwgps slip to that intersection. This can happen when you drag and drop another control point. This messed up the tcx file, and it's not Garmin's fault. I try to carefully read the cue sheet, the cue will also disappear. I have a friend that gets his routes the way he wants them and then deletes all the control points. If you do this, don't sneeze, the route will collapse on itself.

njkayaker

You want to place control points (the white circles in rwgps) out of intersections. RWGPS sometimes adds control points automatically.

If you are missing a cuesheet item at an intersection, one can click on the red line and jiggle it to get RWGPS to recreate the course point.

"Course points" are cuesheet items. "Control points" pin the route to a place (the Garmin doesn't see these; they only exist in rwgps). They are different things.

This is "cargo cult" route creation.

Deleting the control points doesn't anything. The control points don't get written to the file (the file is text, which means you can look at it and see for yourself).

Deleting the control points is silly times three. It doesn't do anything, it's extra, fussy work, and it makes it difficult to make changes to the route.

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You don't need to add control points at every turn. You don't need too many and you don't want too few.

Carbonfiberboy 

I know about control points. I have over 200 routes in my library. Some people put them every little ways, so there are like 200 of them. Redoing those routes is a PITA because of having to delete so many. Otherwise not an issue either way, except that if you want to build a route from a trace, you have to pepper it with control points so you don't lose anything once you start jiggling the lines, kinda what the kayaker is saying.

njkayaker

Exactly this.

The person I replied to doesn't understand about control points.

Iride01 

So do y'all think there is anything to be said for the GPS still thinks you haven't made it to the turn or notification point yet while the actual turn is going past you?

Or maybe the processor is so busy that it's getting behind the eight-ball at what to you the rider thing is a critical time.

Maybe a few moments of bad reception because your body, terrain, foiliage, or resting your hand with a water bottle just over the unit got in the way of the many ones and zeroes being sent to your gps receiver caused your device to get distracted from doing what you want it to do.

And as for your experience with a route on your device versus the same route on another device, unless it's the exact same model and software, it really is apples and oranges.

I'm not trying to be flippant.... I am actually interested in the conversation and agree with much of whats been said, but also wonder how much of the things I mentioned might also come into play.

Oh, and there might be differences in how one or another transferred the .tcx to their device. Just putting it in the /newfiles folder and the device translating it to a .fit file as opposed to someone letting Strava, RWGPS, or other do the import to the device might cause differences too....

njkayaker

The processors in these are kind of slow (certainly, the one in the 800; the 1000/1030 are faster). I suspect that can add to the delay (or absence) of turn notifications.

Different maps render faster than others too.

Reception could be a problem once in a while too.

Slowing down at a junction that is confusing is one way of making the navigation more reliable.

Different models, different firmware, and different maps can cause differences in routing behavior.

(Carbonfiberboy and I are using the same model and (probably) the same firmware.

Very unlikely.

The data being used for the navigation is a list of points (there isn't extra mysterious data in one format over another).

Different routing planners will create different points for a course more-or-less the same base on the same map. That is, if there's a difference in routing, it's due to the differences in data (not the format).

The same route planner might not always create the same list of points. That could cause some differences in navigation but, since the devices have some tolerance of differences, it doesn't normally.

Carbonfiberboy 

I publish my TCX export as an attachment to my Call To Ride, which contains a link to the RWGPS route. So those who choose to upload the provided TCX file have the same data we have. And are missing the same turn notifications on their equipment, which varies. I don't know about those who choose to create their own TCX files.

njkayaker

If you recall what notifications went missing, it might be interesting to look at the page. PM me if you like.

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Keep in mind that this thread drifted in a few places from your original question.