Handle bar light + helmet light - Is this overkill???
 

I want to ride a fairly well known paved trail at night. Propose to have one of the following options:

Option 1: Cygolite Trion 600L handlebar + Stella 200L helmet light

Option 2: Cygolite Trion 600L handlebar + Magicshine (700ishL) helmet light.

Optione 3: Cygolite Trion 600L handlebar - no helmet light + Magicshine as backup.

I can see where the helmet light can help me go faster on curves since I can point light in direction of eyes. I have also heard where adding helmet light can mess with depth perception, probably on a mountain bike trail. Also wondering if the big light would wash out the helmet light anyway.

What do you all think ?

Thanks,

Option 1 - reasonable

2 - overkill probably since you specified well known paved trail, could be different if riding in the woods at high speed

3 - absurd, why would you not use it if you have it?

I have use the Trion and the Magicshine (both hb mounted) on regular residential city streets that were a mixture well lighted, poorly lighted and no light. The setup was very nice. The Magicshine had a wider beam and the Trion a narrower beam.

I would suggest another option. Get a Magic Shine and wait to see what the independents do with the new Cree XP-G chip, which delivers almost 400 lumens per chip. Several independent fabricators have just received the 7 XP-G round chip and are beginning to work on fabricating their designs--yes, that's 7 XP-G chips on one large die. It will be blindingly bright (almost 3,000 lumens), but multiple-mode drivers will enable you to go to a low setting. You could also look at low-profile multiple XP-E helmet lights available now like Troutie's. Here's a picture of Troutie's Lumen Liberator and a shot showing how it lights up a forest trail at night; yes, that's a lot of light for a small LED, but the Crees are fantastic and affordable.

http://www.troutie.com/Pictures/image2.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...Picture058.jpg

You might also check out MTBR.com's threads on lights. Candle Power forums is also another good site. Good luck.

This is a good place for some redundancy. When (not if) one of your lights crap out,you will be able to finish on the other.

A helmet light can mess up your depth perception. I haven't experienced this on a bike, but I have run into it hiking on trails

I try to match light output on my lights. You get a more even light. Do you have the Cygo Trion and are just wanting to supplement it? Or are you looking at a whole new system? If you have one light and are trying to find another one to go along with it, then get something that has a similar output. If you don't have either light, I'd suggest going with only one brand. That way, if something goes wrong, you can swap parts to get you home. You also won't be dealing with multiple chargers and multiple connectors.

I find that LED tends to be a little flatter light so that it's a bit more difficult to see contrast while using it as a helmet light. I tend to run into more potholes and cracks that I don't see then when I'm using other types of light, i.e. halogen. It's not horrible but it is noticeable.

I'd still stick with a helmet light for the utility. Being able to see into a corner on a curve is a huge advantage;)

Helmet mounted headlights greatly reduce depth perception at night because all of the shadows they throw are very close to your line of sight. Smaller shadows means less depth perception. More light from a head mounted lamp does nothing to help the situation.

I personally wouldn't ride at night without a helmet light. It's incredibly useful.

You only NEED one light. I'd definitely prefer two, bars+helmet light, but for sure, you can get buy with one for road riding.

For hardcore mtn biking, you will NEED two. But one is sufficient for most purposes if you have to go with a minimalist setup.

No need to make your bar light and helmet light equals.

I prefer one very good, (bright) light on my handlebars. On my helmet I just use a small LED light for reading maps, cue-sheets, road signs, and fixing flats or making adjustments. My choice of a headlamp does not even come close to my bar mounted light in terms of brightness. If my main light were to fail, it will be a slow ride home using just my helmet light. I'd probably just get myself somewhere and call for a ride.

For your bar light I suggest the Dinotte, magicshine, or whatever light you want. For your helmet I like the princeton tec EOS "bike". But any old headlamp will do. Just replace the headband strap with some double-sided velcro and run it through the helmet's vents.

Hmmm. You don't like helmet lights yet you seem to know that they "greatly reduce depth perception". And you know this how?:rolleyes:

I've ridden for over 20 years...on road and off...with helmet lights. Not only do they not reduce depth perception, they actually improve your ability to see and avoid obstacles while riding. Why do you think agarose2000 says that they are so necessary off-road? It's because they improve your vision.

And longer shadows? They don't do anything for being able to see better. I've mounted lights on the fork, on the bar and on the helmet. The fork mounted lights are, by far, the worst for trying to see anything on the road or trail. Long shadows just hide lots of stuff that you might not want to run over or into. Consider this: Do you see things better when the sun is overhead at noon or when the sun is very low on the horizon (and behind you)?

It depends on what you want your helmet light to do as to whether or not you should match them...or make the helmet light more powerful. If all you want to do is use it for reading maps or road repairs, then a fairly weak helmet light will do. But if you want to use it as a tool for riding, i.e. seeing the ground and where you are going, then you want at least the same power on your head as you do on the bars...or even more light up there.

Both a helmet and bar light are mounted on a swivel but the helmet light has more range of motion. As you go around a corner, the bike is leaned over but the bar light will go spraying off at a tangent to the corner. The helmet light, on the other hand, is following your eye and head motion which is looking further into the corner then the bar light can reach. The helmet light illuminates stuff in the corner that you can see...and avoid...that your bar light will never illuminate.

The helmet light, being mounted higher up, can also reach down the road a bit further than the bar light and still be effective, i.e. illuminating the ground rather than just illuminating the trees along the way:innocent: Your bar light can only be aimed so far down the road before beam spread robs you of too much light and illumination. At that point, all the light is doing is being wasted. A helmet light, on the other hand, is hitting the ground from a great height and at a higher angle. That puts the hot spot a bit further out and makes for a little more illumination on the ground because the ellipse formed is less eccentric.

Matching the outputs makes sure that one light isn't swamped by the other.

Definitely not overkill unless you have never ridden at night. Handlebar headlight is good for what is in front of you and to help vehicles see you more than anything. The helmet light is good because if you turn your head, you have a light that follows.

I KNOW that they reduce depth perception because I study depth perception professionally as a holographer. I don't get all my information about lights from marketing materials and on-the-box advertising as you apparently do.

If they are good for OFF ROAD use, it's because they give more light. That's it. More light is better OFF ROAD for the rider only. When there's the possibility of someone comming TOWARD YOU, as on the road or on a bike path, helmet lights are inconsiderate, ignorant and unnecessary.

I get my information about lights from using them! If you care to go looking at what I have posted in the past, you'll find that I don't own a commercial lighting system. My 20 years of experience with helmet mounted lights is with systems that I have built. I have adapted some commercially produced light heads to my use but I go beyond what the manufacturers have done with them. If you build...or adapt...your own, there is no 'on-the-box advertising' or marketing. There is only real world experience...something you are lacking when it comes to actually using something you are clearly uniformed about.

I've also stated that I use a helmet light that is matched in output to the bar lamp. So the reason I use them off-road, or on-, isn't because they give more light. I use them because they give a different quality of light that you can't get from bar mounted or lower mounted lights. Low mounted lights cast very long shadows that don't improve depth perception one iota. Look at house lighting systems, for example. Lights are mounted near the ceiling so that they cast light from above...like the sun. Take those same lights and mount them at floor level and then tell me what it does for your depth perception:rolleyes:

I generally use just a handlebar mount light. However, I recently bought a more powerful LED light (Magicshine) for my handlebar, so I moved my other light (Fenix L2D flashlight) to my helmet. The Fenix beam is pretty much flooded out by the Magicshine. It does provide some benefit as I can turn my head toward cars approaching from sidestreets, so I can be sure they see me. I also can use the helmet light to read my bike computer. Bottom line, there is no need for both lights, but the helmet light provides some minor advantages. I very much prefer the handlebar as a mount location for my primary light.

Strongly disagree with the notion that head-mounted lights are "inconsiderate." You can easily glance off-center to direct the main beam away from the oncoming pedestrian or car. Car headlights are WAYYY worse than bike lights unless you specifically point the bike light directly into the eyes.

From my direct experience, head-mount lights are extremely useful, and ALWAYS improve your view of the road, whether you be on or off road. Even if you just use a "to-be-seen" head-mount, the ability to shine it in a certain direction to get the attention of cars who don't see you is invaluable. The notion that a head-mount light makes for inferior visualization on the road is not true at all, shadows or no shadows.

If I had a choice of single mount light, I'd choose the head over the bars. It doesn't matter if you've got 10,000 lumens - if those lumens are pointing in the wrong place, it'll do you no good and also increase blinding of oncoming peds/cars. 200 lumens (one Fenix flashlight) pointed in the CORRECT location will suffice for the VAST majority of realistic night riding situations up to 20mph, and even off-road.

You are about to incur the wrath of RR;)

By the way, I agree with you 100%

To the OP. I doubt the Trion would wash out the MS that much but it wouldn't matter anyway. The helmet light is most useful for illuminating left and right as opposed to straight ahead. I have never heard that a helmet mounted light would mess with your depth perception. I do know people who ride with them on trails and the road with no complaints.

My helmet light (40 lumen Blackburn Flea) is only for lighting up my comp and maybe changing a flat in the dark.

Maybe all manufacturers of LED helmet or headlamps need to incorporate some green LEDs since green light is supposed to help improve our depth perception. A company that produces LED helmet lights for firefighters has just changed one it's more popular helmet lights and added 4 green leds to the unit's 20 white leds to help improve depth perception. http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-prod...-Helmet-Light/

Of course you can "glance away", but many many don't, and have their head mounted lights pointed high (as the "mad scientist"). My description of "inconsiderate" is from the perspective of an oncomming driver or other cyclist for the many like him. Bike hgeadlights are very quickly overcomming car headlights.

The notion that size of shadows doesn't affect depth perception at night is absolutely ridiculous. Sorry, but that's just a fact. And sorry if I didn't mix it into a little apple sauce for you, but it's true. And how do YOU know what tan oncomming driver has seen before you decide to shine your headlight into their eyes "to get their attention"? What if you're wrong? YOU want a temporarily blinded driver comming around the corner behind YOU? I don't.

Definitely don't need to get in a shouting match here. You're entitled to your views, and I'll even respect your scientific superiority over mine in lighting regards.

Still, if you ask endurance mtn bike 24hr racers if they'd rather have just a low-mount light, or a low-mount light AND an equall or greater powered helmet light, every single one of them will choose both. That's good enough for me.

And also, to date, I haven't heard of overpowered bike lights causing accidents of any sort amongst motorists. Fatalities, definitely zero. Even with cyccomute's 10,000 watt retinal burners. However, the number of serious injuries and fatalities from cyclists who weren't seen properly due to insufficient lighting is significant. Hard to argue that we cyclists constitute a threat to a car because of our overpowered lights. (Which are also in general puny compared to a high-beam car light.)

And BTW - here in LA, it's REALLY EASY to tell that you need to "flash" a motorist. Most common scenario that happens EVERY DAY at night on my post rush hour commute home - car on the side of the road, preparing to pull into the lane. Even with my 200 lumen handlebar lights, the cars are so busy looking into the street to get their moment to make their turn that more often than not, they overlook how fast I'm coming. One flash into their eyes while they're still stopped or inching into the street is enough for them to look carefully at how fast I'm coming. I consider this critical in a high-traffic area like LA where there is heavy washout of your bikelights by other cars driving beside you.

Do you read what I post or just react to it:rolleyes:

I did not say that my lights were pointed high. I said that my helmet light is mounted higher than my bar lights. Pretty self explanatory. Of course it would be mounted higher than my handlebar light because it's mounted on my head! As to where it is aimed, it is aimed downward a few feet further down the road than the handlebar light. That puts the central part of the beam at about 2 car lengths in front of the bike...about 30 feet. I don't wear the helmet light for fashion...I use it for function. If the light is "pointed high", it's of no use and why would I even want to carry it?

You know nothing...nothing...about me or how I use my lights. I am extremely considerate of other road users. I am also very cognizant of where my lights are going and what they are doing. That is why I have said you are completely wrong about blinding other road users (at least the ones who are riding or driving the right way on the road) with bicycle lights that are separated by 10 to 15 feet from motorists and 20 to 25 feet from other bicyclists.

I agree that you about shadows having an effect on depth perception. I just happen to disagree that long shadows, i.e. those cast by low mounted lights...notice that "mounted" word again..., improve depth perception. I've ridden with lights mounted on the fork blades, at the headset, at the bars and on the helmet. Of those 4 places, mounted on the blades is the absolute worst place to mount a light. Tiny pebbles cast shadows that are inches long. Each of those long shadows are places where wheel trapping stuff can hide. Mounted at the headset, the shadows cast by the light are shorter but still long enough to hide road hazards. Bar mounted lights cast shorter shadows that hide less stuff and illuminate the road better. Helmet mounted lights cast the shortest shadows of all. Short shadows give far better depth perception than do long ones.

No one here has ever said that they shine their helmet light in the eyes of on-coming traffic. That would, indeed, be stupid...even given that the light is a long distance away and the output attenuated by beam spread. If we have to flash out helmet lights in across someone's hood, it is momentary and is used in the case of a motorist not seeing a bicyclist. In that case, the motorist is endangering the life of the bicyclist and the flash is meant as a warning. The most often time I have had to use this technique is when the motorist is stopped at a cross street and is pulling out without seeing me. Should I just let them hit me? Don't want to blind the poor person, why don't I just lie down here and let them crush the life out of me? That way they won't be blinded, pull away from the stop sign, speed down the road, and kill you on a blind corner?

Jeez, Robert, it's not like bicyclists with helmet mounted lights are walking up to motorists and shining 300 or 400 or 1500 lumens in their eyes from 3 inches away:rolleyes: That would be inconsiderate. We are flashing a little bit of light at them for a moment...far less than a second...from many feet away (20 or 30 or more). Even you, light expert that you say you are, should know something about light density. You even set up a test rig and measured what the lux is for the Magicshine. What is the lux (lumens/sq meter) at 2 feet, 5 feet, 10 feet, 20 feet, 30 feet, 50 feet?

My halogen lamp has an output of 1500 lumens. At 10 meters and a 12 degree reflector, the beam is almost 6 meters wide. That's 28 sq meters of area. The light spread over that area evenly (my beam is very even from edge to edge), gives 54 lumens per meter. A human face takes up way less than 1 meter in area but even if I were to hit a person full in the face with 54 lumens, that's still not much light. Certainly not 'blinding' or enough for them to go careening off the road.

And the driver that is coming at them is going to spray far more light into their eyes than I can because their 1500 lumen light is much closer and, thus, has a higher lumen density.

This is where I hear you recommended aiming youe helmet mounted light high, to illuminate further down the road. And yes I know it's higher with respect to the ground, but that's only by about two feet which is insignificant at the distances where the beam hits. Using a headlight equal to the bar mounted light is also the inconsiderate thing I mentioned, and others here have agreed.

Seems like it's the mountain bikers that want the helmet lights and push them. Good for the trail, if you're the only ones out there. Good, stay on the trail with them. Using them on the road is ignorant and inconsiderate.

And plenty here have suggested that the justification for head mounted lights is to flash oncomming cars. Fine, when the light is 200 lumens. Not fine when it's 500 lumens. Soon all bike headlights will be way over 500 lumens and will be in the hands of the ignorant masses flashing them at oncomming eyes. My admonitions are FORWARD thinking. You quote 1500 lumens but have probably never measured anything yourself. Still, your initial comment that "more (light) is always better" is just plain WRONG for ROAD use.

You're obviously a helmet mount, maximum light advocate. I'm glad you took electronics in high school and learned to solder. But ranting away with verbose, belligerant overconfidence in your own beliefs about light and its effects on vision isn't going to change the facts about it. You don't consider alternatives to what's presented to you, however inpolitely, and you'll never change your mind. You should stick to the A&S forum.

Reread posts #16 and #17 above.

What I *want* to tell you is to get a light with a well shaped beam for your handlebars/fork crown, both because they make it easier to see the ground (they evenly light the ground, rather than lighting the area near you more than the area far away) and because they thrown less light off to the sides and into the faces of other people coming at you down the path.

But sadly, in reality, unless you're running a dynamo light it's difficult to find these kind of lights in the US. The only one I know of that might be like this is the Light and Motion Seca, and it's hella expensive. So unless you're as willing to spend money on neat gadgets as I am (lol) I would probably go with either light you mentioned on the bars. I like to mount my bar lights by the fork crown, if possible, to keep them as far away from peoples faces as I can, but it's such a PITA that my main bike still has them on the handlebars.

For the helmet light, though, I would *highly* recommend you avoid either of the brighter, wider beam lights listed. If you have a narrow beam light on your helmet, you can avoid blinding people simply by not looking at them. If you have a wide beam, you'd have to look completely to the side not to blind people, and then you wouldn't be looking in front of you. So I would recommend the Stella for the helmet. Other options include the Dinotte 200L, or the Dinotte 400L (if you really want some light on your helmet, but it may be overkill).

Two is better than one. Funny story, buddy at work said he had his dual homemade bar mounted LED lights on when riding on a paved trail. Guy was approaching him and swerved off the trail because he thought my buddy's bike was a car. I laughed for an hour. GL

You reread them. Both are talking about traffic coming from the side...as in coming from a stopsign and about to cross the cyclist's path by taking the cyclist's right-of-way. No one here has ever said that you should willy nilly shine a helmet light into the face of a driver that is coming at you...as in parallel to your travel but in the opposite direction.

I said that I aimed the light further out then the bar mounted light. My handlebar light is aimed so that it hits the ground about 30 feet (2 car lengths). My helmet mounted light goes from 3 to 4 feet further out than that. The extra 2 feet (it's probably closer to 3) of height on the helmet mounted lamp makes the ellipse formed by the conical section smaller and concentrates more light in a smaller spot on the ground. The ellipse formed by the bar mounted light is very, very long...starting at about 2 feet in front of the wheel and going out to 30 feet with the hottest spot of the beam at about 20 to 25 feet. The helmet light's hot spot is just above the 30 foot mark and is a much smaller spot due to the higher angle of incidence.

Since you haven't ridden with a helmet mounted light, you can't really comment on how insignificant the extra height is nor on how well the light works.

Others have agree with me that using a helmet light isn't inconsiderate.



Mountain bike riders started using helmet lights and noticed their utility. They figured that if they work there, the utility... i.e. being able to see into corners and having a light that you can direct where you want it to go...would translate to road usage. They can be used on the road in a considerate manner...most everyone I've seen with one, including me...is very considerate about how they are used. We know where the light goes...we can see it...and we avoid flashing them willy nilly into peoples' eyes. The technique that agarose2000 describes...turing the light away from people while approaching them...is one that I use on a regular basis as do the legions of people I see with them coming at me.

Then why do you use the one of the brightest LED lamps around? You could get by with way less for ROAD use. Whose being inconsiderate now?

By the way, the "more is always better" line was meant as a bit of a joke in an entirely different thread. You took it as a personal insult, and promptly proceeded to insult me.

Yes. I believe in having the maximum light that I can carry...within reason.. Used wisely, it doesn't hurt anything and it helps to keep me for getting squished. I realize what I have on my bike, what it can do and how to use it so that it doesn't harm or annoy other people. I do think about this stuff:rolleyes: Why do you use one of the brightest LEDs around? What's that word for doing something but telling someone else that they can't?


I'm glad that you recognize that you have been presenting your alternatives impolitely.

And what, exactly, have you presented as 'alternatives'? Other than "Using them ... is ignorant and inconsiderate." That's a statement of opinion, not an alternative to anything.

I posted about this earlier, but to clarify -

I've NEVER been "beamed" right in the eyes by an oncoming cyclist. You really have to purposefully and intentionally aim that light to hit it square on the eyeballs.

ANd sure, the off-center spill from a Magicshine can be bright, but it's not even close to the blinding you'll get from an oncoming car at the same distance, on regular beams. Plus, nobody ever posts on BF that "I wiped out because someone's oncoming bike light blinded me!"

RR is entitled to his opinion, but I really can't support the notion that bright helmet-mounts are a significant safety hazard to anyone.