Helmet Light
09-27-10, 05:38 PM
#26
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What happened to the OP?
In any case, my perspective about head lamps is pretty much on the "spot" side. I think they are the perfect solution for reading signs and attracting attention from motorists who simply can not "see" your headlight from anything but a direct "head on" angle. I figure a head light with a "spot" beam is more useful, at least when not called on as primary lighting fro a cyclist.
I've had several close calls in the past when oncoming traffic on rural roads crossed the center line during turns onto side roads or around unusual corners. There are plenty of lights that work very well, arguing about battery safety hardly needs to be a part of this thread. Go away and start your own.
In any case, my perspective about head lamps is pretty much on the "spot" side. I think they are the perfect solution for reading signs and attracting attention from motorists who simply can not "see" your headlight from anything but a direct "head on" angle. I figure a head light with a "spot" beam is more useful, at least when not called on as primary lighting fro a cyclist.
I've had several close calls in the past when oncoming traffic on rural roads crossed the center line during turns onto side roads or around unusual corners. There are plenty of lights that work very well, arguing about battery safety hardly needs to be a part of this thread. Go away and start your own.
09-27-10, 06:49 PM
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Here's my $5 solution. It actually works very well. The light is a home depot/auto store light. Along with some rubber (from what you'd use to mount a cyclecomp or hrm to your bike and 2 zip ties. It's simple, cheap and very effective. It also doesn't weight much.
09-27-10, 09:25 PM
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Speak for yourself. I was interested in what he had to say, if there was anything further to it. I will grant that the placement in this thread could have been better.
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09-27-10, 09:40 PM
#29
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What brand/model is this light? At 145 lumens, it looks interesting. Where did you get yours?
09-27-10, 09:46 PM
#30
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when using a MS light as your main light, a smaller flashlight or helmet light is more for being seen than seeing.. Aiming the smaller light at cars does get there attention, I prefer a smaller flashlight, mounting can be easily done with Twofish bike bloks, parallel mounting.. It is extremely secure, 7.00 through amazon..
https://www.amazon.com/TwoFish-Bikebl.../dp/B001F307JK
My current favorite smaller light is the Romisen C8II.. The Romisen RC-C8 II has a fully adjustable beam from tight focus to wide flood, I use a single 18650 and 4+ hour runtime on high mode if needed.. Also works with other battery types: 17670, 2 x CR123A, 3 x AAA's, comes with aaa holder.. Has 3 modes, high - low and flashing.. The flashing mode is a more reasonable 120 pulses minute..
https://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/t...8-II-Q5/Detail
If you want to go very small form factor, I would look at single cell AA romisen lights or cr123 lights.. I use this one for running at night, simiar to light above, but only high and low modes.. It is under 2 ounces..
https://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/t...6-II-Q5/Detail
https://www.amazon.com/TwoFish-Bikebl.../dp/B001F307JK
My current favorite smaller light is the Romisen C8II.. The Romisen RC-C8 II has a fully adjustable beam from tight focus to wide flood, I use a single 18650 and 4+ hour runtime on high mode if needed.. Also works with other battery types: 17670, 2 x CR123A, 3 x AAA's, comes with aaa holder.. Has 3 modes, high - low and flashing.. The flashing mode is a more reasonable 120 pulses minute..
https://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/t...8-II-Q5/Detail
If you want to go very small form factor, I would look at single cell AA romisen lights or cr123 lights.. I use this one for running at night, simiar to light above, but only high and low modes.. It is under 2 ounces..
https://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/t...6-II-Q5/Detail
09-28-10, 12:38 AM
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What is the rated output of the Romisen C8-II? This one + bike block looks interesting as well. I have a Coleman Max ( 3 x AAA) from last year. I believe it is rated at 115 lumen. If the Coleman were just a bit brighter (more output), I would think it would be just about right. I like the hi, med, lo, flash options on the C8-II.
https://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/t...h-29-II/Detail
09-28-10, 01:27 AM
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The Romisen C8 II is rated at 210 lumens.. The nice thing is the option of multiple batteries.. You can use aaa or if you want best runtime 18650 cells..
09-28-10, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mwatkins
I don't agree with the analogy as presented.
Riding a bike without due care and attention to cars and traffic is inherently dangerous and in the same vein so is using li-ion cells in typical "consumer" fashion. You and another here claim to behave differently - that's terrific. Clearly in your research you've discovered that li-ion cells need to be thought of differently than standard primary cells or NiMH rechargeable cells. Commendable.
Perhaps I'm a stickler for safe use of these cells because I'm a technology geek by profession or maybe it's because I've been a systems integrator and understand risk and who owns it. Or maybe I'm just a safety geek.
If the discussions being held were more balanced then one could be sure the safety message is getting through clearly enough. As of this writing that doesn't seem to be the case. Li-ion cells are virtually by definition not suitable for the average consumer, yet the preponderance of discussion around li-ion cells and flashlights is decidedly consumer oriented in the nature of "I know what you need - just buy this and that off of ^insert internet site(s) here^".
There is a reason why you don't see li-ion rechargeable cells with Duracell or Energizer or Sanyo labels on the shelves of your local grocery store today and it has nothing at all to do with market share and everything to do with safety. They are not, I repeat, suited for consumers primarily because they are inherently more dangerous. On their own they are not an "end user" product. They are truly meant to be used by systems integrators such as laptop vendors who build entire solutions (packs, chargers, charging and monitoring software in firmware) to make them "safe enough" for consumers. These vendors either own or control the entire power ecosystem in their product, and are responsible for it. Such is not the case with pot-pourri light and power technology mix and match done by lay people like you and me.
One could argue that some flash light manufacturers are taking on at least part of the systems integrator role, and indeed if the light is designed from the ground up to use cobalt based li-ion technology and will absolutely shut off the light before the li-ion cell reaches a dangerous level of discharge, then that is a light to consider. If you don't know that for a fact, the light isn't worth buying at any price. Over-discharge is one of the worst things you can do to a common LiCo-ion rechargable cell - it is here where you've potentially created a time bomb.
But even having identified a good reliable light that will only safely discharge a li-ion cell you've still only considered one aspect of the product ecosphere -- discharging. You still have the cell and charging components to take into account.
By selecting cell A, charger Y, flashlight N you -- the end user -- have taken on the role of systems integrator. By taking on that role you take on all the risk. The experience is not at all like walking into a hardware store and buying a flashlight, charger and some cells, even though it feels like the same experience. It simply isn't.
The consumer goes to a hardware or drug store, sees a plethora of mostly multi-cell flashlights, and makes a purchase decision. There are no warning signs on the displays because generally speaking what they buy isn't ever likely to explode in their face. They'll often run down their lights until there is barely any output and then swap the cell(s). Even if they are slightly courageous and venture into rechargable NiCd or now NiMH cells for their lights, the worst situation they'll likely run into is diminished cell cycle life, no matter how wanton their treatment of the cells in and out of the light and charger is.
That's "consumer" use of cells and lights.
Despite the world wide availability of li-ion cells (largely via the internet) li-ion cells are not consumer grade products. If used in the same manner many abuse alkaline and NiMH cells, li-ion cells are inherently dangerous. Your car analogy is truly apt in this case.
Riding a bike without due care and attention to cars and traffic is inherently dangerous and in the same vein so is using li-ion cells in typical "consumer" fashion. You and another here claim to behave differently - that's terrific. Clearly in your research you've discovered that li-ion cells need to be thought of differently than standard primary cells or NiMH rechargeable cells. Commendable.
Perhaps I'm a stickler for safe use of these cells because I'm a technology geek by profession or maybe it's because I've been a systems integrator and understand risk and who owns it. Or maybe I'm just a safety geek.
If the discussions being held were more balanced then one could be sure the safety message is getting through clearly enough. As of this writing that doesn't seem to be the case. Li-ion cells are virtually by definition not suitable for the average consumer, yet the preponderance of discussion around li-ion cells and flashlights is decidedly consumer oriented in the nature of "I know what you need - just buy this and that off of ^insert internet site(s) here^".
There is a reason why you don't see li-ion rechargeable cells with Duracell or Energizer or Sanyo labels on the shelves of your local grocery store today and it has nothing at all to do with market share and everything to do with safety. They are not, I repeat, suited for consumers primarily because they are inherently more dangerous. On their own they are not an "end user" product. They are truly meant to be used by systems integrators such as laptop vendors who build entire solutions (packs, chargers, charging and monitoring software in firmware) to make them "safe enough" for consumers. These vendors either own or control the entire power ecosystem in their product, and are responsible for it. Such is not the case with pot-pourri light and power technology mix and match done by lay people like you and me.
One could argue that some flash light manufacturers are taking on at least part of the systems integrator role, and indeed if the light is designed from the ground up to use cobalt based li-ion technology and will absolutely shut off the light before the li-ion cell reaches a dangerous level of discharge, then that is a light to consider. If you don't know that for a fact, the light isn't worth buying at any price. Over-discharge is one of the worst things you can do to a common LiCo-ion rechargable cell - it is here where you've potentially created a time bomb.
But even having identified a good reliable light that will only safely discharge a li-ion cell you've still only considered one aspect of the product ecosphere -- discharging. You still have the cell and charging components to take into account.
By selecting cell A, charger Y, flashlight N you -- the end user -- have taken on the role of systems integrator. By taking on that role you take on all the risk. The experience is not at all like walking into a hardware store and buying a flashlight, charger and some cells, even though it feels like the same experience. It simply isn't.
The consumer goes to a hardware or drug store, sees a plethora of mostly multi-cell flashlights, and makes a purchase decision. There are no warning signs on the displays because generally speaking what they buy isn't ever likely to explode in their face. They'll often run down their lights until there is barely any output and then swap the cell(s). Even if they are slightly courageous and venture into rechargable NiCd or now NiMH cells for their lights, the worst situation they'll likely run into is diminished cell cycle life, no matter how wanton their treatment of the cells in and out of the light and charger is.
That's "consumer" use of cells and lights.
Despite the world wide availability of li-ion cells (largely via the internet) li-ion cells are not consumer grade products. If used in the same manner many abuse alkaline and NiMH cells, li-ion cells are inherently dangerous. Your car analogy is truly apt in this case.
The dangers you speak of are more in the use of multiple LiIon cells where the difference in voltage between cells is too great. This is more of a concern for unprotected LiIon cells, but once in a while the protection circuit does fail and the cells vent causing and explosion within the sealed environment of a flashlight for instance. For the most part, the over-charge/over-discharge protection circuit works as intended. There is also reverse polarity to be cautious of. I've had NiMh cells vent causing the lens in my flashlight to blow off and NiCad packs catch fire.
If someone uses quality protected LiIon cells like AW's with a good charger like Pila, I think you'll be just fine. There is a risk but a small one at that.
I too am a "geek". Been in IS/IT field more than 15 years. I am also a "flashaholic" (flashlight nerd, not pervert
). I have over 60 hi-power LED flashlights in stock or modded form and about a dozen incandescent lights including some Mag-mods (ROP, 1185). I have been using LiIon for years without incident. I have also used LiIon/LiPo in RC cars/trucks/buggies without any problems. In fact, I have had more "issues" with NiMh and NiCad cells than anything.Now I am not going to say that LiIon's are completely safe. There are risks of venting, fire and explosion in certain situations and care does need to be taken with this technology. I also take the same precautions with NiCad and NiMh.
So if you go LiIon, do some homework first. For those that are unable or unwilling to, heed mwatkins warning.
09-28-10, 11:37 AM
#34
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I've got a Fenix LD20 that used to be my primary commuter light. I moved it to my helmet, attached with a 2 Fish Lockblock, after I got a Magicshine 900 for my main light. The Fenix is very light weight and runs on two AA rechargeables. Fenix also makes a single AA model (LD10?) that is even lighter but the run time is not as long. In addition to having the advantages of a helmet mount, a second light provides a good backup if you forget to charge your main light or ride longer than you intend.
09-28-10, 11:43 AM
#35
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Blackburn Flea that has the USB charger. I have a few, so I have charging capabilities at work and home. I run it on flash, and only need it in the morning, so it lasts all week long.
09-29-10, 10:11 AM
#36
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I don't remember, but I think it was at Home Depot or Lowes. they also sell them online. It is a Dorcy. It is made of plastic not aluminum, but it has held up just fine for me. It is a lot of light for the money. Weight-wise I don't even notice it on my head while I am riding.
10-09-10, 01:58 AM
#37
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Sigh.
Note the date on this article. October 8, 2010. The FAA isn't concerned only about lithium polymer battery packs but also lithium metal cells and lithium ion cells.
Note also a recent warning notice sent to users of the Magicshine system, a budget high-powered bike-specific lighting system we are all no doubt aware of. The Magicshine system is powered by a multi-cell pack of 18650 sized lithium ion cells:
Remote Control enthusiasts are early adopters of lithium powered systems. They are acting as their own integrators, and they've accepted that. and are documenting cases (that is thread number two... started this year, thread one went on for 56 pages and was started in 2003). While they generally work with lithium polymer packs, they have documented lithium ion cell explosions. What they have done is accept that there are risks that have to be considered when using any lithium based power storage device, instead of blowing concerns off. One recent comment I thought was apropos for this thread:
If I am repeating myself it is only because my point apparently isn't registering:
And your point is? Are you suggesting that because it's a known problem you can ignore the risks of using lithium based cells in a headlamp attached to... your head? Are you suggesting that there is already a proper level of awareness of the safety issues among cyclists buying high output flashlights powered by lithium ion cells? If you are, I beg to disagree.
Or are you suggesting that because the majority of media time on this issue has been focussed on exploding/burning laptops and such that some flashlight (a consumer product) with what may well be a no-name battery of unknown quality inside it, can't possibly pose the same level of risk that a laptop power pack can? No, I'm sure you are not saying that.
I've tried to frame the discussion by pointing out that the manufacturers of those consumer products have large teams of people focussed on product features and safety is always a key feature in a mass market product. Yet high output flashlights that use li-ion cells are most definitely not mass market and most flashlight makers are not large companies nor are they systems integrators controlling the entire product ecosystem (unlike an Apple or Dell) including the flashlight device itself and and power supply subsystem (cells and chargers). That means that the end user takes on that responsibility. Some users don't take that responsibility seriously, not through any deliberate negligence but just because they don't know what they do not yet know.
Maybe it's the apparent familiarity of the pieces that leads to an unearned sense of comfort with esoteric power cells. After all, it is just a flashlight and a battery, right? Well, no, it isn't.
It's up to you to know if the light has over-discharge protection and to know if that protection works for the type of cell you are employing. It is up to you to know how the "protected" battery circuit stuffed into the cell you've bought works. It is up to you to know under what conditions a "protected" battery can be brought to an unsafe level of discharge, because it surely can happen in common use with some lights. It is up to you to know how to determine if cells can be safely charged and to what level they may be charged and if trickle charging is appropriate or not and what chargers fail to terminate charging. It is up to you to know if the charger(s) you have or are thinking of buying are actually safe to use, won't over-charge the cells, don't have inappropriate trickle charge output, and so on.
I've already indicated what can go wrong. Over charging and over discharging lead to cell damage and damaged cells at best do not last as long, and at worst become unstable and can vent with flame, or explode, when used or charged.
Am I willing to say that no-one should use Lithium-ion rechargeable cells? Nope, I am not willing to go there, although certainly if the user is unwilling to do some basic fact checking and learn what is and isn't safe, then in good conscience how could anyone recommend their use to such a person?
Why am I bothering to collect this information here? A user who is blind to these issues is more likely to run into trouble than someone who accepts that there are legitimate safety concerns that need to be acknowledged and addressed in order to use these building blocks safely over the long term.
More to the point, cyclists are particularly at risk. Why? The reason is simple - cyclists happen to be fairly demanding light users. I'm sure I'm not the only one who participates in this forum that regularly depletes the cell(s) in their bike lights. I do this every day during the fall and winter. If you've selected the wrong type of components (flashlight, cell) for your lighting system you could well be prone to over-discharging your li-ion cells. Regular abuse of this sort will damage the cell.
Here's the kicker: over-discharge is one of the worst things you can do to a lithium-ion cell. Over-discharge can damage a lithium-ion cell and make it prone to vent-with-flame or explode upon charging and/or next use.
Since my intended use for a flashlight pulling bike duty ensures I'll be draining cells on a daily basis, for that reason *I must* be guaranteed that the "system" I put together will protect me from my regular usage habit by preventing over-discharge.
Note the date on this article. October 8, 2010. The FAA isn't concerned only about lithium polymer battery packs but also lithium metal cells and lithium ion cells.
FAA issues fire warning for lithium batteries
Business Week
|snip|
The FAA's safety directive said that recent research conducted by its scientists shows that when batteries are exposed to high temperatures they have the potential to create "thermal runaway," a chain reaction leading to self-heating and the release of a battery's stored energy.
|snip|
Six cells can blow one of these apart, imagine what one or two can do in a flashlight attached to your bike or helmet!
FAA tests of as few as six loose lithium metal batteries stored in steel containers found that when exposed to heat they created enough explosive force to blow the lids off the containers, the directive said.
"There are currently no approved and tested containers that can sufficiently contain the known effects of accidental lithium metal battery ignition," the safety directive said. "Common metal shipping containers, pails and drums are not designed to withstand a lithium metal cell fire."
FAA officials declined to identify at what temperatures the batteries experienced thermal runaway or exploded.
|snip|
Lithium ion batteries are also flammable and capable of self-igniting. They can generate temperatures very close to the melting point of aluminum, which is what the exterior of airplanes are typically made of, the safety directive said.
Business Week
|snip|
The FAA's safety directive said that recent research conducted by its scientists shows that when batteries are exposed to high temperatures they have the potential to create "thermal runaway," a chain reaction leading to self-heating and the release of a battery's stored energy.
|snip|
Six cells can blow one of these apart, imagine what one or two can do in a flashlight attached to your bike or helmet!
FAA tests of as few as six loose lithium metal batteries stored in steel containers found that when exposed to heat they created enough explosive force to blow the lids off the containers, the directive said.
"There are currently no approved and tested containers that can sufficiently contain the known effects of accidental lithium metal battery ignition," the safety directive said. "Common metal shipping containers, pails and drums are not designed to withstand a lithium metal cell fire."
FAA officials declined to identify at what temperatures the batteries experienced thermal runaway or exploded.
|snip|
Lithium ion batteries are also flammable and capable of self-igniting. They can generate temperatures very close to the melting point of aluminum, which is what the exterior of airplanes are typically made of, the safety directive said.
"• Put battery in the fireproof container and charge in an isolated area away
from other flammable materials."
from other flammable materials."
Aug 10, 2010, 09:27 PM -- Kind of amazing. It wasn't more than a few years ago, the general concensus was that the fire potential of LiPos was something Chicken Littles were making up. Now, here's some numbers to show that they need careful treatment.
We've all heard about batteries catching on fire in consumer products.
Or are you suggesting that because the majority of media time on this issue has been focussed on exploding/burning laptops and such that some flashlight (a consumer product) with what may well be a no-name battery of unknown quality inside it, can't possibly pose the same level of risk that a laptop power pack can? No, I'm sure you are not saying that.
I've tried to frame the discussion by pointing out that the manufacturers of those consumer products have large teams of people focussed on product features and safety is always a key feature in a mass market product. Yet high output flashlights that use li-ion cells are most definitely not mass market and most flashlight makers are not large companies nor are they systems integrators controlling the entire product ecosystem (unlike an Apple or Dell) including the flashlight device itself and and power supply subsystem (cells and chargers). That means that the end user takes on that responsibility. Some users don't take that responsibility seriously, not through any deliberate negligence but just because they don't know what they do not yet know.
Maybe it's the apparent familiarity of the pieces that leads to an unearned sense of comfort with esoteric power cells. After all, it is just a flashlight and a battery, right? Well, no, it isn't.
It's up to you to know if the light has over-discharge protection and to know if that protection works for the type of cell you are employing. It is up to you to know how the "protected" battery circuit stuffed into the cell you've bought works. It is up to you to know under what conditions a "protected" battery can be brought to an unsafe level of discharge, because it surely can happen in common use with some lights. It is up to you to know how to determine if cells can be safely charged and to what level they may be charged and if trickle charging is appropriate or not and what chargers fail to terminate charging. It is up to you to know if the charger(s) you have or are thinking of buying are actually safe to use, won't over-charge the cells, don't have inappropriate trickle charge output, and so on.
I've already indicated what can go wrong. Over charging and over discharging lead to cell damage and damaged cells at best do not last as long, and at worst become unstable and can vent with flame, or explode, when used or charged.
Am I willing to say that no-one should use Lithium-ion rechargeable cells? Nope, I am not willing to go there, although certainly if the user is unwilling to do some basic fact checking and learn what is and isn't safe, then in good conscience how could anyone recommend their use to such a person?
Why am I bothering to collect this information here? A user who is blind to these issues is more likely to run into trouble than someone who accepts that there are legitimate safety concerns that need to be acknowledged and addressed in order to use these building blocks safely over the long term.
More to the point, cyclists are particularly at risk. Why? The reason is simple - cyclists happen to be fairly demanding light users. I'm sure I'm not the only one who participates in this forum that regularly depletes the cell(s) in their bike lights. I do this every day during the fall and winter. If you've selected the wrong type of components (flashlight, cell) for your lighting system you could well be prone to over-discharging your li-ion cells. Regular abuse of this sort will damage the cell.
Here's the kicker: over-discharge is one of the worst things you can do to a lithium-ion cell. Over-discharge can damage a lithium-ion cell and make it prone to vent-with-flame or explode upon charging and/or next use.
Since my intended use for a flashlight pulling bike duty ensures I'll be draining cells on a daily basis, for that reason *I must* be guaranteed that the "system" I put together will protect me from my regular usage habit by preventing over-discharge.
10-09-10, 11:34 AM
#38
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I’m using the MS headlight and taillight on my helmet.
I really love having all those lumens coming out the front and the battery life is great. The taillight is of course wonderful too. But the weight is an issue. Originally I mounted the battery on top of the helmet but it got to be too much for a ride over an hour. So now I use the extension cable and mount the battery to my bike. It’s not perfect but I’m happy with it.
I really love having all those lumens coming out the front and the battery life is great. The taillight is of course wonderful too. But the weight is an issue. Originally I mounted the battery on top of the helmet but it got to be too much for a ride over an hour. So now I use the extension cable and mount the battery to my bike. It’s not perfect but I’m happy with it.
10-09-10, 12:03 PM
#39
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Or are you suggesting that because the majority of media time on this issue has been focussed on exploding/burning laptops and such that some flashlight (a consumer product) with what may well be a no-name battery of unknown quality inside it, can't possibly pose the same level of risk that a laptop power pack can? No, I'm sure you are not saying that.
I appreciate the link, that's a good article. Thanks for that. Had you done that to begin with, it would have helped enormously. I suggest you start a thread on the dangers of lithium-ion batteries, where these important issues would get the attention they deserve.
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10-09-10, 03:44 PM
#40
I like 3.14!!!
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It is good to do your research with lithium cells before you decide for yourself to use them. There is an increased risk in using lithium cells as mwatkins so enthusiastically has stated, but in my opinion, it is a very small risk. And if you use quality protected cells and a quality charger, your risk is essentially zero. Good cells with good over-charge and over-discharge protection circuitry is the way to go. I have been using lithium cells without incident for several years now. Many have also. The benefits of a lithium based lighting system is too great to ignore. It allows one to use significantly brighter lights, with longer runtimes and in systems that weigh less.
10-10-10, 12:29 AM
#41
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Go to ebay, and search miner light. All it is is a hardhat with a light attached. Also, you can get teadome lights for the backyard. For about $100 you can get solar powered lights, that add a nice touch to the yard, as well as provide light.
10-10-10, 12:32 AM
#42
Senior Member
When on night rides, I carry a similar light I bought at REI in my trunk, no so much as the main light. But, every had a flat at night. Changing a tire in the dark is no easy feat.
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10-10-10, 05:25 PM
#43
of Clan Nrubso
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Nothing like hijacking a thread for another pointless argument.
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