That might be true if the 'filter' was 100% effecient. It isn't and lots of white light still gets through resulting in a slightly washed out 'red ' light thats still extremely bright. I've put red lenses from Action LED on 10W white headlights with exactly that effect myself.

Funny you should say this. Knowing that the Cygolite Hotshot is indeed, "very directional", I experimented with the lamp to see just how visible it would be when viewed completely off camber.
With the helmet/lamp pointing into the air ( about 40° upward ) I walked a good distance away to see how visible it was. Surprisingly it is still quite visible. No, it won't have the great throw that it was designed for but I pretty much knew that going in.

The Hotshot is nice, small and self-contained. Fits well on back of a helmet and is not real heavy. All things considered it still offers a good secondary point of reference for anyone approaching me from behind. In the mean time no one will miss my rear seat post lamp and if I happen to tilt my head up and swing my head around, some of the high output from the Hotshot ( on slow pulse ) might just catch some eyeball as well. Since I don't own a more visible light for the back of the helmet the hotshot will do for now.

That is correct, thanks for making that more clearer then I did. It is not a true red red like regular tail lights, it is a washed out red that does appear to have a red hue to it from behind which is probably a more accurate way of wording the appearance. By looking at from behind there is no mistake that it is a red tail light just very bright, it's just not a bright deep red that you get from most tail lights. Although, lately due to bright LED's, a lot of car tail lights are not a deep red either anymore, more of a pale bright red.

Now that you mentioned it that is a good point. That thought hadn't occurred to me but after thinking about it it makes sense. Due to the spot like beam of the Hotshot it would not make a good helmet light, you would want a broad (flood) beam type of for the helmet so it can be seen from wider angles due to the head not being in a fixed position all the time. I use my old Cygolite LD-600 for my helmet light and it does have a broader beam pattern that can be seen from very wide angles, but I put that light on the helmet without thinking about it's beam pattern suitability on the helmet.

When using a helmet light you never rely on that light as your primary rear lamp. That's because your head moves around constantly. As such the lamp rarely points where you want it to point. That's means you are just using the peripheral spread of the lamp and not it's main hotspot ( for the most part ). While not as good as something like a Niteflux RZ4 the Cygolite Hotshot still has something to offer for helmet duties. If Niteflux made a mini version of the RZ4 , something more small and compact and under $50, I might be willing to upgrade.

Last night after posting about this I went out into my parking lot again to test the Hotshot. I sat the Hotshot on top of my car ( mounted to my helmet ) and aimed the beam in typical "head down" fashion with the lamp aimed upward ( roughly 40° into the air ). I walked to the other end of the parking lot and had no problem seeing the lamp flashing. No where near as bright as it would be mounted on a seat post but I have a brighter seat post lamp and so it goes. Better to have "something" on a helmet than no light at all. More is always better even if that "more" is not so bright.

While on the subject of helmet lights, here's a funny story. A couple weeks ago I'm on a road ride and get hungry. With no place better I stop at a McD's to get a drink and quick bite. I hate going in places dressed in bike gear but I was under-dressed for the ride and wanted to take the chill off before starting my way back home. For some reason the people working at this particular MickeyD's were extremely slow. I think I stood in line 10-15 minutes just to get a coke and small cheeseburger. Nothing more humiliating than standing in a slow fast-food line wearing tight riding shorts. When I finally got my food I sat down by a window so I could watch my bike. Then I realized I still had my helmet on. I then took my helmet off only to realize that the rear light was still on...:notamused: :bang:...Just color me geek and put me to sleep. :rolleyes:

I agree a cyclist should consider using more then one rear or even front light. I use 4 rear tail lights, I use the Soma Road Flare bar end lights, my hotly contested Cygolite ExpiliOn 350 converted to a tail light, and the Cateye LD600. I believe the more lights you use the more the cars will see you. Last year I did see a guy with 9 rear lights, I haven't seen him since or before, but someone would had to been legally blind and driving to hit him.

MickyD's service has depreciated over the years, I remember 40 years ago getting served in less then 1 minute, today it's not uncommon to have to wait 5 minutes or longer. In some areas the people working could care less they even work and go so slow you would think there was a contest going on as to who could go the slowest. What's weird is 40 years ago I remember waiting 10 to 15 minutes at a KFC to get served, today I only have to wait about 2 minutes. I don't have a problem going into a fast food joint if I get hungry on a ride, but other then that normally I don't eat in those places; besides I like Taco Bell better then the burger places, there use to be a better place then Taco Bell in California called Dell Taco but sadly their not as big as they use to be and difficult to find there.

Each of us will bring to a discussion our interests, our experiences and in many cases our ignorance or bias.

This thread is about understanding that bicyclists need to be "noticed" in daylight as well as poorly lit roads.

I expanded the discussion to remind readers that readers that good lights and "brightness" of a given light hardly provides safety from all threats.

The answer to the original post is as simple as outfitting your bicycle to mimic the lighting of a modern automobile. (or imagine your lights to be "speakers" for you on the road!!)

But what I can't spell out is the mix of dangerous experiences and thousands of miles of night riding that led me to make comments like this.

A bicycle can't mimic an automobile, or actually more appropriately a motorcycle UNLESS you can mount a 7 inch round or square headlight that puts out a minimum 1400 lumens with a low flat aim instead of a round patterned beam, and a 5 inch tail light that puts out a minimum of 400 lumens with reflective ability, then you would have to subscribe to using a steady rear light instead of flashing.

However that should tell you something, the bigger the head light lens the more noticeable you'll be and the easier for a motorist to ascertain distance to you, the largest currently that I'm aware of is the Phillips Saferide and the only one that uses a low flat beam like a motorcycle. And larger tail lights, but problem with larger tail lights is their wattage goes down due to using several LED's to save battery, however the couple I've seen do appear more noticeable further away then the small pin prick styles we use normally.

Also there is a problem with philosophy of how tail lights should operate, in Europe it's against the law for a bike to use flashing lights of any sort due to a German study that proved steady was safer...however, in N. America studies have shown that flashing is safer! Which is it? I don't think anyone knows for sure, but they have proven that flashing lights do garnish more attention, BUT, motorists have a more difficult time ascertaining their distance from them. This is why I run with my main light on steady and my bar end lights and helmet light on flash. Please don't ask me to prove my way is safer, I have no idea if it's safer, it's just what I do, I figure I'll try to hit on the both studies and maybe I'll be safer but I really don't have any way of knowing or proving I'm right.

Nothing will provide safety from all threats while on a bike, that is pretty much understood. However I think it can be said with confidence that the better illuminated your bike is, the better your chances of being seen at dusk or in complete darkness.

Daytime safety is harder to enhance but can be done. A bright white strobe on the front of the bike and a bright amber flasher on the rear should help. Still, I consider the best thing to do for increased visibility in the day is to wear a bright yellow jersey or jacket. When ever I'm behind the wheel the first thing I notice when I see a cyclist during the day is "what they are wearing". ( few people use lights during the day, I personally am an exception to that rule ) The yellow jerseys always stick out like a sore thumb. I never ride daytime on the road without one.

I agree with this. With todays technology there is no reason not to be using a flashing or strobe light during the day if being visible is important to you. I also agree with the yellow, or even a neon lime green jersey, those colors stand out like a sour thumb, while I do agree with it I don't always follow that, I do have a couple of yellow jersey's but I also have white and black. Not saying that I'm doing it the right way by not wearing yellow or neon green, but I have the other colored jerseys due to deep sales and the color options just weren't there. But if I know I'm going to be out after dark I always wear a cheap Home Depot neon green reflective safety vest.

Just want to relate a tidbit of info about an observation I made this past Sunday. A group ride was planned on a popular mountain climb which necessitated me driving from the "high desert" over the mountain, then to the start of the group ride. The road I took over the mountain is a very popular cycling climbing road, (Angeles Crest Highway in the San Gabriel Mountains north of Pasadena/Glendale).

What I noticed, both going and coming, is that a large number of cyclists were riding with strobe front lights and a slightly lesser number with strobe taillights. This was daytime. I didn't make a count, but I'd bet that it was almost half the riders going up the hill.

I'm glad to see that "hard core" cyclists are starting to take safety seriously. I was encouraged.

(There is a good amount of motorized vehicular traffic on ACH also. Most cars are aware of the heavy cyclist traffic and for the most part, are respectful about passing. Shoulders are either non-existent or very narrow.)

Most of us here know exactly what you are referring to, but in the case that newbie or someone not quite so familiar stumbles upon this thread, I'd like to point out that, while yellow colored cycling clothing help; the "better", more visible color is chartreuse. One can purchase vests/jackets/etc. in yellow, however for greater visibility, if that is your goal, opt for a chartreuse colored vest/jacket instead.

Chartreuse comes in either a lime green or a yellow and in between those two, which essentially is what we today call neon lime green or neon yellow.

I was struck by an SUV while wearing a high-vis green vest and bright yellow helmet, while riding a bicycle on a sunny afternoon. The offending driver had the opportunity to see me from the front, side, and rear before plowing through me. The first thing the driver said was "I was distracted and did not see you". Up to this point that bike had no flashing light, the other bikes I rode did. I have no doubt rear and front flashing lights would have increased my chances of being seen.

I strongly suggest bicyclists wear high-visibility apparel, I do. I also strongly suggest bicyclists use rear and front facing lights in the flashing mode during daylight, I do.

As far as the OP's original question, DiNotte's 300R and 400R (daytime only) lights are bright enough for short & long distances, and off axis viewing. The Hotshot is only bright when viewed in a narrow line of sight channel (~15 degrees) for short distances in daylight. Evaluated in the bright enough for daylight context, the Hotshot is not enough.

The driver that hit you was probably telling the truth. Sad it is when this kind of thing happens. As far as I know DiNotte is the only company marketing rear lamps ( amber and red lights) bright enough to stand out in the day. Hopefully others will follow suit.

While it has been common practice for years for road cyclist not to use lights during the day it should be obvious to all by now that this thinking needs to be reevaluated. Where I live the school buses now use a single white strobe on top to enhance their visibility ( as if being in a yellow/orange school bus wasn't enough ). Keeping with this thought I would see nothing wrong with someone using a white strobe on the rear of their bike to enhance their visibility during the day. Amber would be better but not many of those are available yet. A good "daytime" rear light needs to be in the 500 plus lumen range to be really useful and not many of those being sold.

What the deal about an amber rear strobe instead of the standard red one. Is not the amber color "reserved" for turn signals?

I think hazard lights (4 way flashers) work with the turn signals (amber) instead of the brake lights (red) to avoid confusion with emergency vehicles that use flashing red lights. Since slow moving vehicles are required to use hazard lights - their use on bicycles should be OK too.

That makes sense. Thanks.

Thank you all for sharing your expertise. I have not fully decided which way to go but am leaning strongly toward the Dinotte 400R. Because this will be an expensive acquisition, I would like to have a one-light solution to day/dusk/night riding. This is their brightest rear light light that can be used in all lighting conditions. I am also quite tempted to get this light in a set with the 400 amber front light.

A friend bought the Dinnotte Amber Light for Front Day riding safety.
Get one you, will not be disappointed.

You made a good decision, it's not the direction I would have gone but each of us have to decide how much light they feel they need to give them/us the sense of safety our minds want and convenience, and in that vein I wouldn't like separate battery packs with wires going to a light. But again that is just my own personality.

I would probably buy the set, however the head light is only a 400 lumen light, you can get a brighter light for less money with an internal user replaceable rechargeable AA x 4 battery set up (instead of an external rechargeable battery pack) with a Phillips Safe Ride...BUT, the Phillips does not have a flash mode which could bug some people. The Phillips is an odd light, while it says 400 lumens on the box it's equal to other companies 1000 to 1200 lumen lights because it puts out a flat focused beam like a motorcycle light instead of wasting lumens lighting up tree tops with the typical round beam. I find the Phillips to be too bright on high for most riding purposes, so I ride with it on the lower setting.

Here are two sites that compare the two lights, first the Dinotte: http://reviews.mtbr.com/2012-bike-li...inotte-xml-1-2 And then the Phillips: http://reviews.mtbr.com/2012-bike-li...ips-saferide-2 There is a huge difference between the two, and the Phillips is now only about $158 on Amazon.

If you choose the Dinotte package then I would consider the 400L Road Rider's Experience headlight and tail light, that package has more mounting options for different bikes.

What my statement you quoted was trying to convey was that with modern super bright LED head lights there's really no reason not to have a light on the bike during the day being used in the flash mode. In my typing hast it didn't come out clear.

And the Hotshot is not very bright off axis, this is true, but the Serfas Shield and the L & M Vis 180 are, so was my old Blackburn Mars 4 which I really liked but it needed to be updated to a brighter main bulb and to rechargeable batteries.

The dual-quad LED 400A daytime is greater than 400 lumen, but the rub is an amber or red light can not be measured for lumen accurately, like most white lights can. An amber light requires less output to be seen in daylight, and a be-seen lens by design purpose should have diffuse light output. It's true a bright white light is appropriate for the night time part of double duty if night time use is desired. DiNotte's 400A is not effective for seeing with beyond a short distance at night in an urban setting with other light sources nearby. In a rural setting without other lights, the high steady is good for about a 100 feet ahead, and is kind of cool in a yellowed black & white photo kind of way. Now I'm participating in the very thing I dislike about these daytime light discussions, and that is interjecting irrelevant night time experience.

The main difference between the three 400 model mounting option packages is an additional helmet/forehead mount option with the 400L listed at the web store. FYI, I'm sure this helmet/forehead mount is available separate. I have DiNotte's 400 clamps with quick release feet on modern & vintage road bikes, a cruiser, and a mountain bike. Each light has many different size clamps for various tube sizes including an aero tube shape clamp, so no practical mounting limitation for a be-seen light that I've encountered.

I think the two still photos that I showed for the two different lights tell the story quite accurately as to which is brighter. But the question remains, which is more preferred by DadBikes11, he may like the output the Dinotte puts out so that's the one he should get.

Yes, I believe you are right about that. I don't speak french so I usually refer to the yellow as "day-glow yellow ( or day-glow green for the more greenish offering ) There is also a "day-glow orange" that is also highly visible but rarely is it offered as a cycling specific color. Just a couple weeks ago I picked up one of these day-glow orange sleeveless T-shirts at the local Walmart. Cheap as all get out. Should work out well once the weather gets a little warmer. Yeah, orange is kind of "geek-ugly" but what the hey. It will get me seen. At my age I don't care so much about the geek factor. Shame it is that "bike specific" clothing has gone up so much in price. If you can find a decent "high-visibility" jersey under $50 you are really lucky.