I hear you. Battery lights are cheap cheap cheap. For $40 a set at fasttech.com, one Shimano dynamo front wheel can buy you 3 sets of battery lights. For the purpose of cost savings with a huge performance factor, there's absolute no reasons to go dynamo at all. For the purpose of convenience and no frill factor, dynamo setups are worth the $200 I spent (for me anyways).


Knowing the lights you have, if you want the output of those $40 1500 lumen xml solarstorm x2/fasttech.com lights on a dynamo, the closest you'll come to in commercial lights are $300+ range, unless you're willing to do diy (not sure if you've done any in the past) which actually will get you something brighter. If I were to stick with commercial dynamo light like you, I wouldn't be satisfied with the output level unless I spend $300+.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that one particular type of lighting is better than all others for every person in every situation. The good news is that all of the options appear to be getting better over time and that prices are coming down substantially. I remember thinking about dynamo lighting maybe 5 years ago and concluding that the lighting I could afford would not really meet my needs. I was surprised to learn how much it had changed when I bought my current system. That said, I'm still going to hold onto my cheap rear blinky on my helmet and the matching headlight as a backup or supplement.

My dynamo system cost me about $160. I saved money by being able to build my front wheel myself. I really like it. I can ride at 25 mph on a dark road. What more could I ask of the beam strength and pattern? I jump on the bike and go.

The one major difference between battery and dynamo lighting, is that battery light can be MUCH brighter, since you have energy storage. A battery light can charge for 8 hrs at 2.5W (USB 0.5A@5V), then dump that energy in 2 hr at 10W.

An efficient LED light is ~100 lumens/W, with a 6W dynamo, you're looking at 600 lumens. That's a reasonably bright commuter light, and equivalent to a $35 Magicshine LED light. High brightness battery systems can easily reach 1500 lumens for a single light, and 2000 lumens for a system of spot + flood light.

In principle, you could use a dynamo to recharge the battery, but then the dynamo becomes a range extender not a true power source. If you want a bright light, dynamos work fine. If you want a REALLY bright light, battery is far better.

Subtract 100 lumens for the taillight there too.

I don't see any good options for disc brakes with dynamos, at least on Peter White's pages. I only really need lighting in the winter, and in the winter I now consider disc brakes to be essential. Are there options I'm missing?

Peter White has several disk compatible SON hubs

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp

Shimano also makes several dyno hubs that work with disks, you can get them here (but I suspect from Peter White as well)

http://harriscyclery.net/product-lis...00/?rb_ct=1259

SP also has disc compatible hubs, I have one, the PD-8. They are coming out with a through-axle version, hopefully soon

The kinds of questions you ask will have answers based on the personal experience of each given reader.

Only you know what "kind" of cyclist you are - and only you know how care "full" or care-free you are when you ride.

Some people like myself - always thought that people get hit because they are not careful.

Talking about bicycle lights is entrainment for you - learning from experience may be your only solution.

My

I avoid Peter White. Germany and UK has the best selection on dynamo disc. I bought the Shimano Deore XT T-785 centerlock dynamo from rose.de for $75 a year ago. If you don't care about the latest and greatest, niagaracycles has the 3D30 6 bolt for $50, but I would spend the $25 and get the Deore XT, it's much much better quality, newer than the Alfine dynamo and lighter.

This is a good illustration of what I've been talking about. Looking at your link, you paid $160 for part. A wheel build, even when you do the build, would add another $25 to $40 for spokes. If you didn't do the build, that would add another $60. That pushes the price over $200...for a light for a bike. I understand the convenience factor but I fail to see the economics. For the same money, I could buy 3 lamps ($70), up to 6 battery packs (I've found them for as little as $11) and a taillight (PB Superflash, $25) and still be $70 to the good. With that much light, I can ride 25 mph on city streets...which require far more of my lights than a dark road does.

And that's 3 lights for any bike I care to put them To me, that's a huge part of the convenience of battery lights. I may not have them all the time but I can use them any time I like on any bike I like. Dynamos seem very limited to me in that respect.

Part of the economics is that not everyone has multiple bikes (especially multiple bikes that need lights). Also, the dyno setup requires no additional consumables for its entire lifespan. The same can not be said for battery lights. Granted rechargeables can last for a while, but require replacement every year or two

This is a very debatable proposition. Brightly lit city streets do not require more light from the bike than unlit streets. The idea is to be able to see the street surface, and if the surface is already lit it doesn't require additional illumination. In other words if you turn your light on during the day, do you believe it improves your ability to see the road?

For the purposes of being seen, additional brightness is of questionable utility. Even lights too dim to see by are perfectly acceptable to be seen. But even more importantly, dyno lights frequently incorporate actual reflectors (something all too often removed from bikes) which put the power of the drivers light source (or the sun during the day) to best use for the cyclist...

All true, no doubt. Also likely true is that you have to remember all the lights (which bicycle did you leave them on?) before you go for a dark time ride (evening or morning, depending on commute). That's in addition to making sure that all the batteries are fresh or freshly charged before you take off.

I've paid more than that for a dyno lighting system. But for that extra $ I don't have to worry about kerfuffling with batteries or chargers. But of course I ride a limited number of bikes.

Personal preference. To-may-to or to-mah-to?

No, not everyone has multiple bikes. But some of us, myself included, do. Having 7 dyno setups at $200 per set up would be prohibitively expensive. At roughly $25 per light unit, having one dyno set up at $200 per set up is prohibitively expensive.

Rechargeable batteries would have to be very poorly treated to last only a year or 2. Three to 7 would be a more likely lifespan and, with the rapid changes in technology, that's going to be 2 to 5 generations of lighting. The LED lights I toyed with...the operative word being toy...7 years ago pale in comparison to the lights today on cost, output and run time. Also, at $11 per pack, replacing them each year is hardly going to break the bank. To put it in perspective, if I had a single $20 light, I could replace the battery every year for 17 years before reaching the cost of a dynamo light system. I can't say for certain but I suspect that parts of any dynamo system would need replacement sometime in 17 years.


Go for a ride on an unlit road way some time. You need hardly any light to see with and you need even less to be seen by. I will agree that in an urban environment, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of light sources within 500 feet of you at any given time. There is an ocean of light sources. A single low output...even 500 lumens is a low output...light has to compete with all those light sources. "Be seen" lights aren't. They don't illuminate your path and they are far too dim to be seen against hundreds of lights that are throwing out several times what the "be seen" light is giving off. Out in the middle of no where, that "be seen" light can be seen from miles away. In the city, not so much.

And I'm not sure what you are saying about "reflectors which put the power of the driver's light source..." I've never of an automobile's light doing me much good. If they are following behind me, they tend to mask a weak light (several very bright ones are a different story) and if they are coming at me, they are too far away to do me much good. In either case, the amount of light my light is putting out and the shape of the beam have nothing to do with the car's lights.

Finally, with the exception of stargazing, when was the last time you heard anyone say that they needed less light for a night time activity? More light doesn't hurt anything and, in my experience, helps a whole lot.

Yes, personal preference. My battery comes off every night and goes on the charger. It's pretty easy to do and to remember.

The lights, on the other hand are left on the bike and, since all of my bikes are in the same place, it's easy enough to swap them from bike to bike.

Yes, FOR YOU, apparently a dyno wouldn't be economical. But that isn't the same as saying it isn't economical for others.

Yes, we have had this conversation before. You believe in coddling equipment, I (and most people) don't. I leave the batteries on the bike in unconditioned space subject to normal heat and cold. They only come into air conditioned space when being charged. They don't last more than two years before their life span is too short to be useable. Of course, those cheap chinese batteries last even less time than that.

And 'generations' of lighting simply don't really matter. If one's current lights provide enough light NOW, the next years lights that provide even more are not needed. All too many people have started to treat all commercial goods like computers and always want the latest generation...

I know people who are perfectly happy running the same dyno set-up they purchased 10+ years ago...

I ride on a mix of unlit and lit roads at night all the time. In terms of seeing the road surface, any light that allows you to do that in the dark does it just as well when street lights light the surface. Any light bright enough to overcome the bike's light on the surface is bright enough to not need any additional light from the bike.

For the purposes of being seen, one doesn't need a carbon arc lamp with a bat signal in the city (or anywhere else for that matter). Those drivers who can't notice any lights bright enough to see by, aren't paying attention. And one could have the sun in their face and that will not change.

At night reflectors put some of the much brighter light from a cars headlights back toward them. Supplementing the light on one's own bikes. This is even more so in daylight when no bike light is particularly noticeable. Unfortunately the full complement of reflectors (front, rear, front wheel, and rear wheel) are rarely installed (or kept on) bikes in the U.S.

This is not a issue of light for the cyclists to see with (their headlight does that fine), but rather an issue of improving a cyclists 'be seen' scenario. And frankly is far more important than any on-bike light sources for maximizing one's 'be seen' profile.

For many, a dynamo light isn't economical. We are still talking about $200 or more for a single light for a single bike. Even if you don't have a stable, that's a significant investment when compared to $25 for a single light for multiple bikes.

No, I don't believe in coddling equipment. But I also don't believe in mistreating equipment just because I'm lazy. You change oil in your car, don't you? You lube the chain on your bike, don't you? Grease the bearings? Tension the cables? True the wheels? Pump up the tires? What part of that is "coddling" and what part of it is just protecting your investment. If you leave your batteries to cook in a garage all summer and freeze in the same garage in the winter, then it's not the batteries fault that they fail but your careless acts just as it would by your carelessness if your bearings wore out or you blipped a rim because you didn't pump up the tires.


Okay, I see where you are coming from. I deplore passive reflectors. I think they are some of the most useless things that man has invented. An active light source trumps a reflector in any situation. Reflectors only work if they are hit by a light source that is coming from the right direction. That limits the angle at which it can be seen. Active lighting radiate out in some fraction of a sphere and can be seen in all directions. I carry what I have to for reflectors and nothing more. I don't even see the reflectors as augmentation of the active lights but only a nuisance that I have to have to be legal.

Doubtful, particularly when that cost is considered as part of the TOTAL cost for the bike... Many people routinely spend that and more, already, for battery lights.

Really, the batteries in my cars (and most didn't even get stored in garages) lasted three or more years in precisely that scenario. And yes I know the batteries have different chemistry. I expect my machines to be ready to ride whenever the urge strikes me. Running around fetching batteries (and making sure they are charged), just so that they are 'stored' in the 'proper' environment is codling (in my book) a device that is meant to be used outdoors...

If I were talking about passive reflectors instead of active lights I would agree with you. However, I am talking about them being used in addition to active lighting. The dyno headlight and tail lights I selected were chosen in part because they incorporate reflectors as well as active lighting components. I also have reflectors on my front and rear wheels. And until I switched to my current GR-10 pedals, my pedals had reflectors as well.

I built the following bike up to be a general purpose means of transportation, day or night. I ride in a variety of conditions at night (and ride predominantly at night in the summer) and its basic set-up with reflectors has ensured that I have never had a problem with drivers seeing me.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=338609
Patently not true. During the day, they are the single best visibility tool a cyclist has, bar none. And at night they shine brighter than ANY bicycle light because car lights are much brighter (particularly high beams)...

Yes, but they work from a fairly wide angle (good for the day), and at night the vehicles that one most want to see the reflectors will have their lights squarely in proper angle for the reflector.



BTW, Can you provide a link to those $24 headlights and $11 batteries? I am collecting a variety of lighting and plan on performing controlled tests of their actual light output and light patterns.

Not correct. Bike shops sell more lights under $40 way more than lights over $40.

I suggest you reread my statement. It was correct and you clearly didn't read or didn't understand it. I'll repeat to give you another try.

Doubtful, particularly when that cost is considered as part of the TOTAL cost for the bike... Many people routinely spend that and more, already, for battery light.

And while your statement doesn't have any relation to mine, I will also point out that very few bike shops sell dyno lighting... So it can hardly be expected they would sell much of it. Never the less, the typical cost of a dyno system is very comparable to any quality battery system. ie, any system not manufactured in China (with its slave labor and zero regulations)...

Well I am not going to comment on what has gone before, but I will share what I am using.

The gallery for my Bike can be found in the Cannondale Hooligan Facebook Group

This is my bike:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=338615

On it I have

Hub Dynamo - Shimano Alfine DH-S501

Main Front Light - Busch & Müller Lumotec IQ Cyo R Senso Plus

Main Rear Light - Busch & Müller Toplight Flat S Plus LineTec

Front and Rear Backup Lights (2 pairs) - Reelight SL120

Lights in my pedals - Pedalite KPL200

Spoke reflectors - Wowow Reflective Spokes

I am well lit, can see and be seen, and not a battery in sight.

Lights are always there and always on.

?? I've been using the same cheap rechargable pack for over 4 years now. It seems to still work as many days on a charge as when it was new. One pack gave up at one point but it turned out it had just gotten water in it, I peeled off the wrapper, cleaned it up and it's been working fine for months now.

Agree - as I pointed out in another thread on here, even if we take a fraction of the rated life cycles of a rechargeable, they go on for ages.

let us assume a battery is rated for 1000 charges, but we only get 1/4 of that in reality due to abuse and poor charging regime.

that is still 250 charges. At 1 charge a week that is nearly 4 years, at 1 charge a fortnight that is 8 years and at 1 charge a month that is nearly 16 years.

Lets say you charge weekly and look after your batteries and get the full 1000 cycles, that is nearly 20 years!

http://www.fasttech.com/category/1603/bike-lights
http://dx.com/c/flashlights-lasers-9...&sortType=desc

Any dual cree xm-l lights from $40 and up. Or single cree xm-l at $30.

The $25 lights he's talking about are magicshine clones from ebay with single cree xm-l.

Many people can spend $1000 on a bicycle but won't spend more than $50 on lights. If you want to compare dyno system to quality battery system, quality battery system still wins in the economics department, $100 can get you a decent setup from light and motion, cygolite, that's brighter than any dyno system in the $200-300 range.

Just face it, dynamo system is expensive compared to battery, they're very expensive compared to the new offerings from China. People who buy dyno system (like you and me) don't care about the cost, the convenience factor trumps the cost. I have 3 dynamo setups, and 3 battery systems, my cheapest dynamo setup is more expensive than my 3 battery system combined. Frankly, imo, people who ride often at night but won't get dynamo systems are just cheapskates, it's so much more convenient.

I've also tested a commercial dynamo taillight (herrmans h-track, which apparently one tester say is brighter than the popular b&m toplight plus) on my bike, imo they suck really really bad (that means your fender mounted Spanninga taillight is crap too), I'm still going to supplement it with a Planet Bike Superflash and a 3w cree red led flashlight. No commercial dynamo taillights are reasonable acceptable in my view, except a diy using cree xr-e red led with standlight, that mofo is bright.

Um...no. $25 is a lot less than $200, no matter how you cut it. Sure some people pay a lot more for their battery lights. At this point in the game, I can't see what they are getting for 10 times as much money.

If you know that the batteries have different chemistry, then you should understand how the batteries react to different conditions. One of the trade offs for that high energy density and low weight is increased delicacy. My bikes are ready to ride at as much of a moments notice as yours are. I get the battery off the charger (three of them, actually), plug them into the lights and ride. It takes longer to put my shoes on, especially in the winter when I have to wear shoe covers.

Reflectors, by their nature, are passive devices. They don't work unless light hits them and the light has to hit them from a fairly narrow angle to reflect back to the source of the light. Laws of optics, angle of incidence/angle of reflection and all that. DOT approved reflectors (seemingly) bend those laws but the laws still apply. I would rather have an active light that overwelms the reflector than augments it.

Um, again...no. More laws of physics. Light intensity falls off with the square of the distance from the source. Light traveling from a source to hit a reflector has to return to the source so the intensity is reduced even further by the time it returns back to the source. And not all of the light is reflected back so that's a huge reduction of a tiny fraction of the light. Assuming a standard bicycle reflector of around 8 square inches (2"x4" reflector), that's 0.005 sq meters of reflecting surface. That's hardly enough reflecting surface to "shine brighter than ANY bicycle light".

Google them like I did. You'll find all kinds of them.

I have to disagree that I'm just a cheapskate. The lights I choose to use are chosen because of their output and utility. I've been doing this night time dance for 30+ years and I don't choose lights frivolously. There's a lot of thought that goes into my light choices.

Quite frankly, the output of even the best LED is still only a fraction of an overvolted halogen. I used to run MR16 12 volt halogen overvolted to 14.4 V and they would throw out 3 times what any single Cree XML T6 puts out. Considering that the halogen had the same run time (about 3 hours) on a 4.5 ahr battery as the LEDs I'm currently using, I considering going back to them.

In the last 5 years, dyno have started to do much better compared to the old incandescent lamps and a little bit better compared to halogens but other lights have gotten better as well. Even if I don't use the $25 Cree lights and bought Magic Shines, I can still buy more light output for less money than a single dynamo system. That's not being cheap, that's being economical.