Being economical is just an nice way of saying cheapskate, there's nothing wrong with being a cheapskate. $200 for dynamo lighting on a bike isn't outrageous considering how much convenience it brings. I didn't like charging batteries, and I didn't like taking them on and off when I'm locking the bike outside. I hated worrying about battery life or charging batteries, which is something I still occasionally do because I'm still using battery taillights on some of my bikes.

How often do you replace these battery lights? Dynamo lights typically last longer, so they balance out.

I also value the reliability. You could say I pay more, but I also get more. I could charge the battery for my headlight and think it's charged but discover on the road that I hadn't. Or I could take a longer ride than expected, and it discharges. This is not even possible with a dynamo. Has your battery ever discharged when you needed it to work? What's the likelihood it will happen? It's zero for me. If, however, this type of reliability isn't as important to you as it is to me, then battery lights make more sense.

I'm surmising that you're trying to optimize only money. I'm balancing money and convenience. That's why we come up with different solutions.

cyccommute, I think it should suffice to say that the choices that I have made make sense for me, even though they don't make sense for you. If you're trying to convince me that they don't make sense for me, then you're picking a fight.

Batteries/Dynamo - each have their place.

For forgetful me, the led/dynamo setup is king. It is always there, never needs batteries or bulbs. I forget to take lights, to take them off, to replace batteries and to recharge them - hence why I like my dynamo so much.

If I were downhill racing in the middle of nowhere at night, then batteries would probably be better.

As to cost. I needed to have my front wheel re-built anyway, so it made sense to do it at the same time as I wanted a hub and have non-standard wheels.

I bought the Shimano DH-S501 32 hole disc brake hub in black from Rose Versand - current price is £56.37 GBP + £7.60 GBP P&P
I bought 40 DT Swiss Champion 2mm x 174mm spokes and nipples in black from Taylor-Wheels for €37.95 EUR + €9.99 EUR P&P
I bought my lights second hand from ebay, but the equivalent lights from Rose Versand cost
- B + M Lumotec IQ Cyo RT Senso Plus 40 lux (black) - £60.66 GBP
- B + M Toplight Flat S Plus (standard) - £11.19 GBP
The wheel build cost £20.00 GBP at my LBS

Total cost, £176.39 GBP (approx €208.50 EUR or $275.50 USD)

So yes, high initial outlay. But worth it for the hassle free, always there, lighting.

Thank you.

Yes, but as I said MANY people do spend quite a bit on battery lights and THOSE would be good candidates for the benefit of dyno lighting. As to you last statement, while true it is superfluous. There is such a thing as bright enough (particularly when the light is applied where it is needed); however, I am tired of explaining that to the more is always better crowd.

Yes, german or japanese made quality products are much more expensive than cheap chinese products produced with slave labor. If price is one's primary concern then by all means purchase $25 lights from the Chinese.

Your wrong about which tail light I own, but frankly your past 'testing' is ludicrous considering you don't do it objectively... "Yeh, bubba, I think the one on the right is brighter..."

Yes it is clear that you can't understand why people might prefer something beyond cheap Chinese lights.

You simply don't get it. I don't care what the chemistry of the battery is, no does any consumer. We want the products to work as they are reasonably expected to. For a product that is intended to be used outdoors that means getting left outdoors (or at best in a garage). Many electric cars use similar battery chemistry to those batteries used for bicycle lights (lithium...) Do you expect their owners to remove those battery packs after every use and store and charge them inside? Of course not, doing so with bike light batteries IS CODLING them. When treated as most will, they don't last much longer than 2 years for the best quality ones.

And while you may not believe you need to spend much time getting your bike ready to ride, your simply mistaken. That you have to spend ANY time to get the bike (or yourself) ready for a ride is more time than I need to spend. I can just hop on and ride (granted I do have to open the garage door). Further, I can take as long a ride at night as I choose with no need to concern myself that I don't have enough battery power for my lights...

Unless you always ride with a full nights worth of battery power for your lights YOU CAN'T SAY THAT.

Sorry, but with their frensel nature, the angle bicycle reflectors work is quite wide, hardly laser beam like as your implying, perhaps you need to review your college level optics. And NO BICYCLE LIGHT overwhelms the light from reflectors, especially in the day time... Cars still have more light, especially as they adopt the same updated LED light sources. Since cars will ALWAYS have more power available for the light than any cyclist is going to carry.

Yes, yes, yes, Clearly you will believe what you want. Yes the light reflected is less bright than its original source... However, given that the sources are far brighter than ANY bike light, my point is still accurate...

Your so kind! FYI, I did google and couldn't find anything but flash lights at those prices. The cheapest Magic Lights I found were more than twice that price.

Cheapskate isn't nescessarily an appropriate description, but by your own admission price is a major component of your decision making on the subject. Well that and your a Tim Allen type.

Well by a litteral definition of fraction you are correct. After all the sun's output is only a fraction of a candles output.

Dyno headlights (since all three technologies still used dyno's for power) offer significantly greater light output than the older technology. Your statements otherwise indicate you are simply irrational on the subject.

And yes, no one disagrees that battery lighting can output MORE light than dyno lighting. As you say the reason is based upon physics. battery lighting has far more power available than any dyno system. Again, you and Tim Allen are wrong. More power isn't necessarily better.

As the technology is rapidly changing, I am replacing LEDs every couple of years. However, the cost of the LEDs are dropping just as rapidly so keeping up with increased output, better optics, better battery technology, etc. isn't all the much of a burden. At $200 per light, I wouldn't be replacing the lights all that often. At $100 per light, I'd still think long and hard about the next big thing. At $25 per light, what the heck?

Yes there are some advantages to dynamo lights. I've never said there aren't. And, yes, I've had batteries run out of power. But battery lights aren't all that unreliable. I can think of several scenarios where a dynamo has failings as well. Snag a wire on something and you don't have a light. Ride off-road and you may not have enough speed to keep the light running. Have to walk a tricky section off-road and you definitely won't have light which is a bad time to be in the dark. Crash and break the light off the mount and you're sunk. There are lots of ways that you can have a single light fail and leave you stuck.

I run a single light in the morning this time of year but that's the only time I do so. I have redundancy up the ying yang because I know, from very long experience, that things can go wrong with any system. I even have back ups for the back ups. And I've had to resort to the backups (not the backups for the backups yet but it's only a matter of time). One would think that it is next to impossible to have 3 lamps fail but it can happen. I still have the lump on my thigh from the crash to remind me. Given the energy of the crash and the hurling about that I got, I doubt that any lamp...battery or dynamo...would have survived intact.

Your supposition is wrong. I'm not trying to optimize only money. I try to balance money, convenience and output. I always have. If the current crop of LED lights cost $100, I wouldn't suggest them to people looking for a light. I can build a system that puts out that much light for a lot less. In light of the fact that you can get 500 to 600 lumens for $25, I wouldn't suggest the $45 Planet Bike either. It's just not worth the money. Also in light of the cost of the current crop of LEDs, I couldn't answer the question "What light should I get?" with a dynamo system. Sure it's convenient for a single bike and you don't have to charge batteries but it's also nearly 10 times the cost for a whole lot less light. And, if you have multiple bikes, it's not all the convenient.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just as you can't change mine. I was only using your example as an illustration of the cost differences. Let's not forget Post #1 and benze's original question.

I am curious, have your prior battery lights not produced enough light for you? If they have, why do you feel the need to replace them? If they haven't, at what level will you be happy that they are producing enough, or are you always going to want to 'upgrade'?

Fine, if you just what the products to work as they are expected to without doing what is needed to keep them from premature failure, you'll just have to expect things to fail. I suspect that you fail to pump up tires because you just expect them to be full of air; that you don't change oil in your car because you just expect it to last forever; that you don't clean your chimney because it should just clean itself.

Hybrid and electric cars have very sophisticated systems to keep the batteries from being killed by heat prematurely. But you pay a premium for that protection and the batteries on a hybrid or electric car will have to be replaced eventually. It's the nature of the beast.

Most Li-ion batteries have protection circuits that also keep them from being damaged by heat or, more specifically, to keep them from causing damage to your house if they overheat. But, if you, as a consumer, store them over 90F for long periods of time, it's not the battery that fails, it's the consumer. If you don't want to treat them in a manner that keeps them from failing every year, then expect them to fail.

I have said before that I can get a full night's ride on battery power if I like. It's easy. I just carry enough batteries to do so. A single lamp on high power will last about 3 hours. If I run one lamp at a time, I get 9 hours. If I run one light at a time on low setting, I can get just as much light as you can with a dynamo light for about 6 hours. I can gang batteries together to get longer run times. I have done all night rides, several times. It's not that difficult.


John Schubert has already covered the failings of reflectors. Reflectors on bikes aren't fresnel lenses either. They are retroreflectors, specifically square retroreflectors. They can reflect back at a wider angle than a flat surface, they are still limited by the principles of optics. You can only get reflection back to the observer if they are at the proper angle and even then it is a tiny fraction of the light that the source sends out.

A car may have more light than a bike equipped with current LEDs (not overvolted MR16 halogens, however, which put out about the same light as a car light) but that doesn't matter. The light spreads out over distance very rapidly and the lumens per area drops significantly. It drops even more as it travels back to the observer.

Nope. Not accurate at all.

"You're", contraction of "you are" as opposed to "your" which is a possessive pronoun. Quite frankly, at this point you are becoming insulting. Why should I help?

More insults.

Really, the sun's output is only a faction of a candle's output? You might want to revise that. But what does that have to do with the price of coal in Newcastle? One third is a fraction.

Uh huh. Ask just about anyone if they want more light for less money or if they want to spend much more money for less light.

Expecting a product to be coddled by removing them from the environment they are intended to be used in is how you justify your claim. Comparing having to take a battery from the environment it is to be used in to oil changes is ridiculous... What you describe isn't maintenance, at best you are making a case that the batteries are being misused/specified by the manufacturers of the bicycle lights. Unless of course they only intend those lights to be used on stationary bikes indoors.

So the batteries are being used in an environment they aren't intended for? Great, not a problem with use, but a problem with the manufacturer...

Yep, I don't expect to have to coddle my equipment. Maintanance is fine, but having to remove equipment from an outdoor tool because the tool doesn't like the heat is ridiculous.

Nice avoiding of my point. Do you always carry enough battery power to last all night? Doubtful. And resorting to that low setting is a cop out. Your the one claiming you want the brightest lights you can get for a variety of reasons... It isn't a question of being able to do an all night ride, it is a question of deciding to do so after one has already by out for an hour (or four) and deciding to just keep riding. Batteries don't allow that flexibility...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 16033929)

John Schubert has already covered the failings of reflectors.

---

Does not spread out particularly rapidly when dealing with the distances where it is important. In short I don't care if a car a mile away can see me...

Actually, yes it was...

So your resorting to being grammar police and claiming insults...

No, not actually. Merely an accurate description of your stated position. In short as cheap as possible with as much power as possible...

Yep, that appears to be the way you used the term fraction. As I said your claim was literally true, any real number can be represented as a fraction...

Yep, and there was a time where just about anyone who was asked would have said the earth was flat. More isn't always better, even if people choose to believe so. In this case, it actually can reduce your night vision quite considerably. With my lights I can easily see road obstructions and other issues on the road in front of me, and even on moonless nights I can see quite a bit off to my periphery without any light beyond the stars... You can't with your over powered lights, which is why you recommend a helmet light on top of the spot lights you ride with. That is just one example of how you can have too much light.

Most people can understand that basic fact, even if they let their inner Tim Allen choose bike lights for them. For instance do you use 40, 60, or 100 watt (or equivalents) in the lamps in your home? Or do you choose the 250 or even 500 watt options? Do you read by a carbon arc lamp?

just a friendly reminder of what the original post was

too bad the information is lost in a flood of hostility...

cyccommute, it's true that dyno lights can and do fail. The failure rate is less. Less than an admittedly low failure rate of battery lights. The difference is significant for me but not for you. Similarly, the difference in cost is significant for you but not for me. We are weighing our parameters differently.

I would not suggest a dyno system on every bike to a person who frequently rides many bikes. My racing bike, which I use on long, fun rides, often with friends, doesn't have any lights mounted to them until I take a ride, and of course, they are battery lights. One of my errand bikes has battery lights. Clearly, I find them useful and worth the money for some uses. I prefer dyno systems on my two most frequently used errand bikes. So I'm not a purist. My point is that dyno lights have some advantages, so it's a good choice for some of us, some of the time. The light provided is completely adequate, the price is reasonable (and that's an opinion), and the convenience is great.

I hope I've put this stuff in a way that you can agree with or respect. I don't mean to attack your views at all. I think mine are stout enough not to need to be attacked, either.

Yeah, good point. The OP said he'd like to avoid charging batteries. In that case, I would recommend a dyno system. You can read about my system, and you can buy from Peter White or one of the vendors I mention in my article.

Jogalite's reflective products are excellent. They reflect well, and they last a very long time. I have some of their stuff from 32 years ago. I'm not kidding. And yes, I have used them a lot over the years. I recently bought this triangle and wear it on my back. It's comfortable enough that I barely feel it. A vest might be a good idea because it's visible from the front and hopefully the sides.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...JL._SX385_.jpg

As a person who sometimes drives at night, I do like reflectors as a supplement to lighting for one reason: It helps me understand what I'm seeing. The movement of pedal and wheel reflectors makes the type of object completely obvious to me as soon as I see them. A single point source of light or a relatively static rear or front reflector doesn't tell me as much information as the moving light does. Understanding what the object is helps me guess how it might behave in the roadway.

Ultimately they make me more cautious as a driver, because I've seen folks on bicycles do weird stuff like pass me on the left when I'm in the left turn lane about to make a legal U-turn. I also find it difficult to gauge the speed of a bicycle in the dark, something that we usually do with cars based on the apparent distance between the headlights or taillights. I'm actually thinking about putting reflectors back onto bicycles from which I've removed them.

Those who do spend quite a bit on battery lights will get more power out of battery light dynamo, and they're probably not the "bright enough" crowd. The folks who buy ultra bright battery lights here (and elsewhere) are mountain bikers who will never buy a dynamo system with silly german law lights. Roadies prefer their bikes lightweight, so they buy small removable bright lights around $100 or less. Commuters are generally too cheap to buy anything more than $40 unless they're serious aficionados (like me), randos who frequent peterwhitecycles.com tends to buy anything peter white recommends.

I love dynamos so much that I rig up diy lights that shine as bright as ultra bright battery powered ones, but please please understand not everyone can afford it, nor do they want it.

Chinese lights are cheap because the margins are razer thin, plus the design cost is sunk long ago and they don't do any r&d, which passes on the savings to consumers. $300 battery lights don't increase that drastically year after year unless they change the leds, add leds, or devise a circuit that pumps more juice.

Which taillight do you own? In the real world, visual testing is the final objective measure, this is where people go "I like cool white better than warm light" or "I like that beam pattern more than this beam pattern", or "this light is brighter than that light".

You need to try harder. Less than $25.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CREE-LED-XML...item27d5f5d4ce

Then buy one for each bike. :D

I disagree. Many of those who buy the more expensive lights do so for two reasons: 1) The money isn't significant, particularly when considered as part of the total cost of the bike. 2) Most folks buy battery lights simply because they are more readily available. Dyno lighting is obscure and somewhat mysterious in the U.S.

I certainly understand that not everyone can afford it, and I never claimed otherwise. However, if one can afford a $200 battery light, one is in a position to afford a dyno set-up and should consider it's relative advantages and disadvantages.

Chinese lights are also (and predominently) cheap because they are manufacturer in an environment with low labor costs and nearly no government imposed environmental costs. On products like bike lights, R&D is a fairly minor cost, particularly when simply upgrading internal components.

In the real world objective measures and testing are just that. They involve things like measuring light output and color. Your example is called subjective preferences...

Nope, I don't consider ebay a product retailer so I didn't look at any such links. That explains why I didn't find any products in the price range cyco was mentioning. In addition to cheap chinese equipment, those prices require dealing with dubious sources...

I understand your bias toward dynamo lights just as much as cycocommute is biased towards his overvolted halogen or rock-bottom led setups, but then there's market demands, retailers would stock dynamo lights if more people wanted them. A noob going to a bike shop comparing a $200 battery system to a $200 dynamo system, most of the time, he'll buy the battery system (personally I wouldn't buy either because then I'd have to pay retail price).



Subjective preferences matter a lot more than objective measures, you do it every time when you or others say you prefer the beamshape of german dynamo lights compared to high powered battery lights with higher output.


$27.
http://dx.com/p/t6-4-2-cree-xm-l-t6-...x-18650-232932

Yep, I personally have decided that I prefer dynamo lights, so yes I now have that bias. Doesn't change what I said though. In order for the market to demand something, they need to be aware it exists. I think it fairly likely that the vast majority of cyclists in the U.S. either don't know dynamo lighting exists or they think of it as the old bottle dynamos with incandescent lights.

You are correct that a noob (or even many experienced cyclists) would choose a $200 battery light over a $200 dynamo system. The battery light represents a mid to high level product, while the dynamo light at that price range would be the cheapest available. However, if someone (noob or experienced) is considering lights in that range, it doesn't take much more than $200 to get very comparable quality dyno lighting system. Individual issues, dictate which would be preferable, as neither system is always better.

Yes, most consumers let subjective preferences matter more than objective ones. That is why people buy things all the time. The problem is subjective by nature is individual, which is why subjective reviews are nearly useless.

BTW, preference for beamshape is only partially subjective. It has an objective component. IE, it maximizes the light output in the areas where light is actually needed when riding on the road, while minimizing the resistance associated with powering the light... If battery lights made use of such improved technology they could either significantly improve their battery life or significantly increase the actual light levels on the road in front of the bike...

Yep, you already provided a link to that retailler?, and I already thanked you for that.

By the way, for whatever it's worth, I'm much less picky about tail lights. I have a Planet Bike Superflash and a Cygolite something-or-other. The former uses alkaline or NiMH AAA cells. The latter uses an internal USB-rechargeable LiIon battery. They both go for weeks without needing care. They cast enough light and are convenient. I have a dyno powered taillight on only one of my bikes, and I sometimes supplement it with one or both of my battery tail lights. I do that because it's easy, not because I'm convinced I need to.

My Magicshine puts out way more light than the MR16 overvolted to 14.4 that I used to have. Like, night and day difference.

As far as convenience, the battery costs me about 3 minutes a week to pull the battery off, plug it in at night, then put it back in the morning once a week. I bet if I figured out how long it would take to build the wheel and do the conversion to dyno, the payback time would easily be in the years.

Harbor Freight has a very inexpensive setup

I don't understand why you would consider taking a battery on or off a bike "coddling". For the sake of the argument there is no rule that states you have to do anything to your bike that you don't want to. If you want to leave the battery/lamp mounted on the bike you can that. If you want to leave the entire bike out in the elements year round you can do that too but probably not a good idea if you want it to last a while. You can also store a battery in an area that gets very hot. I wouldn't do it myself because I know it's not good for the battery. Personally I feel your argument is weak. This is not to say I disagree with you and your preference for a dynamo. If you like it for it's "no worry, ready to go " status that makes sense to me but to say removing a battery is "coddling"...well, that's just being overly argumentative. Personally I charge and mount my phone to my bike on every ride and while this is tedious I do it because it is really not that much of a PITA and I want the additional functions of a smart phone while riding. When I'm done I remove it. Really not a big deal.

ON the other hand I agree that reflectors ( the newer kind ) are very good. While I use all kinds of active lighting ( including wheel lighting ) there are reflectors that work well enough to be considered good enough to be used alone. One example is pedal reflectors. I've seen more examples of this than perhaps any other kind. Active lighting is better but reflectors work. Currently the best type of reflectors I've seen for bikes is the straw-like 3M reflectors for wheels. I've only seen these being used a couple times but they are absolutely awesome. Because they are round they pick up light from all angles. They are HIGHLY VISIBLE!. I've been so impressed with how they work that I've considered buying some for my bike. ( even though I already use wheel lights and standard wheel reflectors ) These 3M straws work so well I could consider not using wheel lights and really not have to worry about a loss of "see me" visibility. ( * in my case I would probably use about 9 or 12 per wheel arranged in a tri-pattern. No need to put one on every spoke although that would be even more visible. )

My cheap batteries that I use on the Magicshine and the $35 eBay light stay on the bike out in the garage at all temps unless I take them in to charge them. The oldest is now 4 years old and still working fine. Maybe the "best quality" ones don't last as long if they're not "coddled"?

I like my bikes to be ready to ride. Having to take the battery off the bike to charge is something I accept, though I do that in air conditioned space simply because I don't trust charging lithium based batteries unless I supervise them (they have a record of fires). Under what I consider normal conditions they last me about two years before they hold a charge a short enough time I consider them spent. cyco and I have had that debate on other threads, and his statements were what I consider to be argumentative; hence my response. In my opinion taking a device off of a tool meant to be used outdoors is coddling, it certainly isn't in the realm one should expect of users.

As I have said, I consider a bicycle a tool for transportation, much like a car. I expect it to always be ready. I am willing to perform maintenance. I lube the chain every month or so, I put air in the tires about once a week, etc... I don't consider installing and removing batteries for the lights to be in the same category as such maintenance. To my mind, if the lights require that behaviour they aren't designed well for use in an outdoor situation.

I will routinely travel by bike for days, even a couple of weeks at a time. I stay in primitive camping situations frequently when doing so. When I first started doing this, I packed enough battery power to last the length of the trip (since charging wasn't available)... Temperatures extremes are common on those trips. Why shouldn't I expect the battery to just work? That is why I prefer dyno, it does just work.

Battery lighting is very suitable for most riders; however, it has severe limitations for significant segments of the cycling market. Fortunately, those segments of the cycling market are less concerned about dyno's principal disadvantage-cost.

That is certainly one possibility. Another is just random chance for you or me--either you are getting an unusally long service life or I am getting an unusually short life. Do you keep track of how long they powered your lights when new versus how long they power your lights now? That is how I base my 'time to get rid of them'.