Of course, any such jury probably has no cyclists on it at all, not just because cyclists are greatly outnumbered by motorists, but because one of the sides would have probably used a challenge to get rid of any cyclists who did make it.

Ninja.

(And people who ride the wrong way in traffic are salmon, since we're talking about the names we give people.)

Yup. There are also ninja salmon which may be the worst of the lot.

Some of the ninja's are going to ride dark no matter what...you just can't cure stupid. But without reflectors, many of the (unintentional) ninjas would probably not ride at night. Self preservation kicks in at some point.

Well, governments have sovereign immunity so they can't be sued unless they want to be. They don't need a ton of money for CYA.

I agree that Mr. Johnson should have been held at mostly culpable for his actions. I would also argue that since Derby was following CSPC regulations, they shouldn't have been held culpable. But I also see the point of the plaintiff's case. A complete reflector kit could lead someone to think that it is sufficient for night time riding. Why have it and why does the CSPC require it if the reflectors don't provide sufficient warning? Any person of reasonable intelligence can clearly see that the reflectors are inadequate but too often people aren't being reasonable.

My point was that cars come with lights as standard equipment. They have since around 1920 because cars are used at night. You cannot buy a car for street use that doesn't have lights on the vehicle from the factory. I, personally, don't want bikes to have lights as standard equipment because the lights would be incredibly crappy...just look at the lights that came on 1950's bikes for examples. But the reflectors that are added to bicycles are bandaids at best and are incentives to ride without active lighting at worst. I have reflectors on my bike for the simple reason that they are required by my state's laws. I don't depend on them for anything other than to cover me if I get hit and I need to file a lawsuit. I don't want to give ammunition to a cleaver lawyer who could get my case thrown out because I didn't have the proper reflectors.

I agree that there are no guarantees. But my chances of avoiding an accident are much better with active lighting than with passive lighting. I also subscribe idea that, when it comes to bicycle light, if it can be done, it can also be overdone. I throw enough light in front of me and behind me that people in cars wonder what is coming at them. If they confuse me for a train that is off the tracks and think twice before pulling out in front of me, so much the better.

I've never seen too many pitch black places. especially in an inversion. If you are in such a place you might be more concerned about bear repellent and a firearms permit.

Yet the lawyers for the plaintiff sued the LBS. I figured they were only able to get so much money from the guy that actually hit the cyclist so they decided to broaden their horizons. Small businesses carry insurance. Lawyers know that. They also knew that it was useless to sue the CSPC so they went after the people who had no say in the matter whatsoever. Poor buggers, they must of felt like a deer caught in the headlights. ( YOUR SUING ME FOR WHAT! )... I liken this type of thing to the expression, "Shooting the mailman". If the mailman brings you a letter informing you that your wife is leaving you it makes no sense to shoot the mailman in an attempt to rectify or change the outcome. This also applies to the repo man but you get the idea...Just the guy in the middle, minding his own business, doing his job.

So much for this subject. Think I'll step out to the local McD's, buy some coffee, spill it on my crotch and then sue McD's because ...well,..it's was just too hot. Doesn't matter that coffee is suppose to be hot and that it was my actions that caused the spill I just want to get rich.

Hummm....You know, I never thought of that. Good point. Then again if you keep a video of your bike deck out with full lighting all you have to do is show that to the judge/jury and they should understand that you have more than what is normally required. A lot can be done with video presentation.

The term shooting the messenger is much more popular.

The repo man is a lot more involved than the mailman. He knows what he's doing, is an integral part of it (if the mailmain doesn't deliver your letter -- your wife has still left you) and in fact if you shoot him it'll actually change things ... for a while.

Your conflicting smilies are confusing me. Which part are you saying in an ironic way?

(Because the first part isn't ironic. It *was* too hot, and there's a lot more to the story than we're usually told. (Or if you don't like videos, here's a written article, but with fewer details.)

...which brings into mind another old saying, "Out of the frying pan and into the fire". As you said, shooting someone will change things. In this case, the wife gets everything ( including the sympathy vote, even if she was the one that was at fault for cheating on you ) and you get life behind bars ( or a needle ).

All of it. Very few places now can you get a really hot cup of coffee. A lot of places have switched to the large ( unheated ) urns. The coffee sits in there and starts to cool immediately.
Some places like 7-11 at least have microwaves that allow you to reheat the coffee but this is an extra step. Royal Farms is my favorite. They have urns with heating elements and really good ( hot ) coffee.

Yeah, McD coffee ( was/is ? ) super hot. I remember buying it back in the day when I was younger. Worse tasting coffee I ever had but yeah it was super hot. Just because it's now suppose to be 10° warmer I really don't think it will make a difference if it ends up on my crotch or in my face. A dangerous product needs to be handled carefully. This is where "Personally responsibility" comes into play. If you buy a gun, load it and shoot your own foot it's not the gun's fault or the person that sold you the gun, it's your fault. ( same basic principle )

I like my coffee hot. If somehow I spill it on myself ( through no fault of anyone else ) and burn myself I'll deal with it....without a lawyer.

I hate coffee and tea and somebody elsewhere grossed me out and lost my ear telling me that milk is mucus. More milk or diet Dew, thank you.

And a year later, at least one bike frame with reflective paint is now available commercially: the Mission Bicycle Lumen Frame + Fork Retro-reflective frameset


I've also seen a Boston-based aftermarket service named Hub Powderworks applying a retro-reflective coating ("Halo Coatings") to bike frames.

I thought about trying to get some Halo powder, but at the time they were obnoxious about it. Don't know if they have changed, but I lost access to the guy that powder coated, so it's not an issue. Halo used to list some bike companies in their associates, dunno what happened to that. I also tried to talk one of the wet paint guys into using reflective paint, but he had tried it and didn't like the look

Reflectors require being struck by sufficient light at an angle pretty much, but not entirely, head-on to the reflector. Unfortunately, when you get in some of the rural areas and are coming from a side road or driveway ( backing out ), there's not enough light from a vehicle's headlights or backup lights, to illuminate a reflector on a bicycle that's 100 feet away and coming at 15 or 20 mph. No reflector I'm aware of will do any good in a situation such as this, especially when backup lights are the only illumination to the rear at night. When I need to back out of our driveway at night, the radio is off and the front windows are down in order to try and hear any possible noise from a bike or rider coming down the road without lights, only reflectors on the bike. This situation always scares the hell out of me, but there are some riders in the area that don't wish to be detected on their bikes at night for other reasons than being legal and staying safe.

My new Specialized has reflective tires, so it didn't come with the wheel reflectors. How hard/costly is it to make this a norm?

...and when your tires wear out...then what? You might not want to use the same type of tire. ( or originals might no longer be available )...it happens. I don't see why bike frames can't come with some manufacturers reflective tid-bits. Reflective tape comes in many different colors ( including black ) and is relatively cheap. Even cheaper are the reflective spoke straws ( like in the George3 photo ) If I weren't using wheel lights I'd go with reflective tape on parts of the frame and the ( removable ) reflective spoke straws. I've seen the reflective spoke straws in action and they are pretty awesome. Being circular, they reflect light from all kinds of odd angles.

For bikes in heavy use, and/or parked in direct sunlight, reflectors degrade over time.


If you consider them important, better have them replaceable than applied as paint.

I do not agree. If the reflective paint wears out at some places of the bike after years, it can be repainted, or reflective adhesive tape etc. can be added then.

These are easy to put on and take off, and they're cheap.

Now have active dynohub powered lights on 3 bikes, better than a passive reflector..

When in NL long ago I bought a tubular plastic ring of reflective material with a wire through it,

It laced thru the spokes , inside of the tire, above the rim, so unlike the tire sidewall reflective ring,
it did not get cloudy from braking and road dirt.

I am doubtful its made any more..



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