Leg pain experiment
#26
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just another gosling


Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
A gerontologist is not a 70 year old MD but a doctor who specializes in treating the complications that come with old age. It's a new branch of medicine so there aren't many of this specialty available. It's too bad because as a society with a lot of aging individuals, we need doctors who understand us. I gather that you don't trust doctors so go with whatever you get here. My own primary care physician isn't much good for this either. She's fairly young and seems to think that you just have to put up with any problem that may arise and just dispenses pills to mask the problem.
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#27
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just another gosling


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From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
I think I may have experienced something similar during times when I was ramping my mileage up, having resumed moderately serious road cycling and training in my late 50s after a decade or so off the bike or just commuting. It's an annoying dull ache, which I experienced primarily at night and which sometimes merged into "restless legs," which I also have from time to time.
I certainly don't know everything, but I happen to be a neurologist with a lot of hard miles on an almost 60 yo body and have experienced nerve, nerve root, and even spinal cord compression and damage and i'm all too familiar with what they feel like. This was certainly none of them. It went away on its own, presumably when I reached some level of endurance/fitness/strength and has not recurred, even after major, exhausting, unaccustomed efforts. That makes me dubious of the cytokine theory, at least in my case. Pet theory: I was on a low dose of a statin during this time and never had any diagnosable muscle problems, but I did go off of it (in accord with guidelines) about the time the pain went away. Don't stop yours, based on my worthless anecdote!
I certainly don't know everything, but I happen to be a neurologist with a lot of hard miles on an almost 60 yo body and have experienced nerve, nerve root, and even spinal cord compression and damage and i'm all too familiar with what they feel like. This was certainly none of them. It went away on its own, presumably when I reached some level of endurance/fitness/strength and has not recurred, even after major, exhausting, unaccustomed efforts. That makes me dubious of the cytokine theory, at least in my case. Pet theory: I was on a low dose of a statin during this time and never had any diagnosable muscle problems, but I did go off of it (in accord with guidelines) about the time the pain went away. Don't stop yours, based on my worthless anecdote!
The most common statin side effect is muscle pain.
There's been a lot of discussion of this over in T&N with some folks getting off statins so they could ride well and keeping their markers in range through diet and exercise.
To ramp up the intensity a bit, do like I did: Alpine ski over 20,000 vertical feet, then go home and do an hour of one-legged pedaling on your rollers, then go to the gym and do full body work, lifting to failure and PRing your squat. My legs were so sore the next day I couldn't touch them. That was a bit much. I won't do that again.
Don't worry, you're still below my 63 age threshold for when it starts to hit the fan. You ain't seen nothin' yet. I was riding doubles, randonneuring, and doing RAMROD when I was in my early 60s, no problem. I'd like to ride RAMROD again this coming summer and climb Mt. Rainier again. The latter should be fairly easy but not the former.
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#28
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I train year-round, mostly for cycling, a little for hiking and skiing. For the past several years, my legs have hurt every day. I can't remember a day when they didn't. I finally got curious about whether that's just because I'm old and pain comes with age, or whether it's simply that I train all the time and so I'm always sore, sometimes more, sometimes less.
In addition to the 'growing old explanation' and the 'rest your body explanation' there is a chance of something out of balance. Check hydration/electrolite + mineral/vitamin balance. For me the answer (if that's what it is?) required changing Dr's twice and a simple blood test that revealed an elevated muscular creatine kinase (CK) level. The feeling for me was similar in a way to excess lactic acid and loss of endurance. Trying to push through the pain for better exercise only made things worse; supposedly to the extent of destroying muscle tissue. Not sure what caused it, but less time with endurance activities has lowered it considerably. No more winter ski patrol or summer wilderness ranger but I can enjoy still enjoy my hobby time with some limitations.
Disclaimer: not a doc, so = see yours, or another, or another.......
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#29
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Joined: Aug 2010
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From: N.W.Ohio
I used cherry juice for some arthritis pain i had, not muscle pain. It did the job. After reading your post would i assume that the cherry juice acts as a NSAID?
Tell us more about your success.
Many antioxidants suppress the production of various cytokines during exercise. This has been well studied and is generally accepted. However there seems also to be a positive link between said cytokine production and muscle growth, i.e. while antioxidants may reduce inflammation resulting from exercise, they may also inhibit the hypertrophy of damaged muscles. It has been generally accepted that chronic use of NSAIDs for muscle pain inhibits hypertrophy due to the suppression of the factors which create inflammation. This latter has been my experience.
Thus I used to take 1g or more of Vitamin C per day until I saw a post by, IIRC Machka, that Vitamin C supplementation had been found to be negatively associated with endurance performance:
Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance
I immediately dropped it from my supplements and if anything my muscles were less sore and endurance performance better. Certainly not worse. I was advised to take the antioxidant alpha lipoic acid (ALA) for my age-related macular degeneration, but that particular antioxidant has been found to have no effect on interleukin-6, an inflammatory cytokine released by exercise. https://www.academicjournals.org/jour...f/52B9D9E30666
Many antioxidants suppress the production of various cytokines during exercise. This has been well studied and is generally accepted. However there seems also to be a positive link between said cytokine production and muscle growth, i.e. while antioxidants may reduce inflammation resulting from exercise, they may also inhibit the hypertrophy of damaged muscles. It has been generally accepted that chronic use of NSAIDs for muscle pain inhibits hypertrophy due to the suppression of the factors which create inflammation. This latter has been my experience.
Thus I used to take 1g or more of Vitamin C per day until I saw a post by, IIRC Machka, that Vitamin C supplementation had been found to be negatively associated with endurance performance:
Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance
I immediately dropped it from my supplements and if anything my muscles were less sore and endurance performance better. Certainly not worse. I was advised to take the antioxidant alpha lipoic acid (ALA) for my age-related macular degeneration, but that particular antioxidant has been found to have no effect on interleukin-6, an inflammatory cytokine released by exercise. https://www.academicjournals.org/jour...f/52B9D9E30666
#30
dot dash

Joined: Jun 2015
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From: Land of Pleasant Living
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Not just a pet theory or worthless anecdote. Statin side effects: Weigh the benefits and risks - Mayo Clinic
There's been a lot of discussion of this over in T&N with some folks getting off statins so they could ride well and keeping their markers in range through diet and exercise.
To ramp up the intensity a bit, do like I did: Alpine ski over 20,000 vertical feet, then go home and do an hour of one-legged pedaling on your rollers, then go to the gym and do full body work, lifting to failure and PRing your squat. My legs were so sore the next day I couldn't touch them. That was a bit much. I won't do that again.
Don't worry, you're still below my 63 age threshold for when it starts to hit the fan. You ain't seen nothin' yet. I was riding doubles, randonneuring, and doing RAMROD when I was in my early 60s, no problem. I'd like to ride RAMROD again this coming summer and climb Mt. Rainier again. The latter should be fairly easy but not the former.
There's been a lot of discussion of this over in T&N with some folks getting off statins so they could ride well and keeping their markers in range through diet and exercise.
To ramp up the intensity a bit, do like I did: Alpine ski over 20,000 vertical feet, then go home and do an hour of one-legged pedaling on your rollers, then go to the gym and do full body work, lifting to failure and PRing your squat. My legs were so sore the next day I couldn't touch them. That was a bit much. I won't do that again.
Don't worry, you're still below my 63 age threshold for when it starts to hit the fan. You ain't seen nothin' yet. I was riding doubles, randonneuring, and doing RAMROD when I was in my early 60s, no problem. I'd like to ride RAMROD again this coming summer and climb Mt. Rainier again. The latter should be fairly easy but not the former.
#31
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Joined: Aug 2009
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From: North of Boston
Bikes: Kona Dawg, Surly 1x1, Karate Monkey, Rockhopper, Crosscheck , Burley Runabout,
Op, you seem to do a LOT of intense training and workouts. Relax and enjoy? Rest days? Yoga? Massage stuff?
#32
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just another gosling


Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
I'll do that when I get old. The less I do, the less I can do. That's a slick chute. Meanwhile, after a 30 year lapse I'm almost back skiing like I could at 25. When I was 18 and skiing at our local area, I took an oath that I'd ski there for free at 70. Yeah, so it's not free anymore, but close enough. I just hope I don't break something, but hopefully heavy leg work will help there.
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#33
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just another gosling


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From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
These are my hobbies and I add a little kayak for a water sport, but gyms are claustrophobic. My apologies for not reading all the posts, if already stated.
In addition to the 'growing old explanation' and the 'rest your body explanation' there is a chance of something out of balance. Check hydration/electrolite + mineral/vitamin balance. For me the answer (if that's what it is?) required changing Dr's twice and a simple blood test that revealed an elevated muscular creatine kinase (CK) level. The feeling for me was similar in a way to excess lactic acid and loss of endurance. Trying to push through the pain for better exercise only made things worse; supposedly to the extent of destroying muscle tissue. Not sure what caused it, but less time with endurance activities has lowered it considerably. No more winter ski patrol or summer wilderness ranger but I can enjoy still enjoy my hobby time with some limitations.
Disclaimer: not a doc, so = see yours, or another, or another.......
In addition to the 'growing old explanation' and the 'rest your body explanation' there is a chance of something out of balance. Check hydration/electrolite + mineral/vitamin balance. For me the answer (if that's what it is?) required changing Dr's twice and a simple blood test that revealed an elevated muscular creatine kinase (CK) level. The feeling for me was similar in a way to excess lactic acid and loss of endurance. Trying to push through the pain for better exercise only made things worse; supposedly to the extent of destroying muscle tissue. Not sure what caused it, but less time with endurance activities has lowered it considerably. No more winter ski patrol or summer wilderness ranger but I can enjoy still enjoy my hobby time with some limitations.
Disclaimer: not a doc, so = see yours, or another, or another.......
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#34
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From: Seattle area
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As to the full work-up = presently on 2nd neurological work-up with new neurologist. Rheumatology was within limits. At least I pass basic health indicators with no meds and get outside daily.
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#35
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Joined: Jan 2008
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If any of you guys are having trouble with leg pains, specifically the Restless Leg Syndrome, please get a work up by a neurologist should you have any sign of tremors, swallowing issues, or balance problems. Those were one of the symptoms I had, and didn't relate to what they could be part of. RLS and swallowing issues were what the docs picked up on that led to my Parkinson's Disease diagnosis. Caught me totally by surprise, no idea that PD was setting in and it wasn't on the radar for a family trait. Once the diagnosis was confirmed, and the proper management routine and medications were sorted out, things have gone pretty well.
Just a heads up based on some comments here, sorry for the hi-jack, CFboy. I will second what Wildwood said about making sure that proper rest is included in your program. One thing that I took away from reading Joe Friel's, "Faster After 50", was that you had to get your rest, in order for the body to recover from strenuous rides, runs, or whatever you do. Yep, intensity and effort yield rewards, but things have to get the chance to rebuild afterwards. JMHO, YMMV. Keep up the good work, too.
Bill
Just a heads up based on some comments here, sorry for the hi-jack, CFboy. I will second what Wildwood said about making sure that proper rest is included in your program. One thing that I took away from reading Joe Friel's, "Faster After 50", was that you had to get your rest, in order for the body to recover from strenuous rides, runs, or whatever you do. Yep, intensity and effort yield rewards, but things have to get the chance to rebuild afterwards. JMHO, YMMV. Keep up the good work, too.
Bill
#36
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Joined: May 2010
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From: Bristol, R. I.
Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot
Several months ago I read a book about anti-inflammatory properties of various foods. The author graduated from Yale and then played in the NFL for the Miami Dolphins on special teams. At the conclusion of his NFL career, he entered medical school and is now an MD in Connecticut. His special interest is nutrition and he is a proponent of natural foods for their anti-inflammatory properties. After all is said and done, the chemical interactions of various substances as as shown in medical research, you are looking at the mediterranean diet. Top 15 Anti-Inflammatory Foods - Dr. Axe So plenty of exercise, even strenuous exercise, and good diet is a proven path to good health.





