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Originally Posted by WNCGoater
(Post 19939000)
I start experiencing hand-arm fatigue and some hand numbness
And voila ... the feeling has returned to your hands. :) |
Originally Posted by JanMM
(Post 19939742)
I don't take it personally, but my bikes do! :)
Getting them some counseling may help them eventually face the fact to accept themselves as they are, but discourage them from trying to imagine themselves as something they're not. :innocent: |
Originally Posted by Machka
(Post 19940500)
Minimal pain. :)
1) Ensure that your bicycle is set up correctly. There are measuring sites that will help you with this, and riding lots will also help you determine what 'correctly' is. 2) Ensure that you have a good saddle of the correct width. Too wide and there's friction and incorrect leg motion. Too narrow and your sitbones won't be planted on the saddle comfortably. A harder saddle is better because you can sit on your sitbones. A softer saddle creates too much friction ... although if you're only ever doing short rides it might be OK. 3) Ensure you've got good shorts. If you go with padded shorts, make sure the padding covers your sitbones. Also make sure that the elastic around your thighs is snug, but not too tight. 4) Do core and upper body work ... yes, weights. A strong core and upper body dramatically improves comfort over long distances. It also helps you sit on the bicycle with good posture. 5) Sit on the bicycle with good posture. The saddle is not meant for your full body weight ... only part of it. I couldn't tell you the percentages but quite a bit of my weight, when I'm cycling, is on my feet. This means I sort of perch on my sitbones on the saddle, and a strong core helps me do that. I really notice if I've let my core go a bit. 6) Get fit and ride lots. If you're only doing one century a year, it is going to hurt. Do many of them. Do a century a month. And if you want a century to feel good ... do a double century. Then do a century a few weeks later. All of a sudden that century is just another training ride. 7) Lose weight. The lighter I am, the more comfortable I am on the bicycle. Within reason, of course ... don't drop to "underweight". 8) And of course you can do things like stretching, moving around on the bicycle, and so on to loosen things off. For example, I found that I was getting a stiff neck on centuries and other longer rides. Then I realised that I was focusing on the road in front of me for hours on end. Looking around at the scenery once in a while made a big difference. And I'll usually try to go through a stretching routine about once an hour or so. 9) I have also found that a good mental attitude helps a lot. If I'm feeling "dark" about the ride, all sorts of weird aches and pains will start up. But if I'm enjoying myself, I'm usually OK. And one of the ways to ensure that my mood is good is to eat and drink properly while riding. Any time I start feeling achy or irritable or "dark" ... it's time to eat. Now I will add that there is one exception to all of the above ... there is one situation I can't do much about. For whatever reason my body seems to know when I am about to do a long ride, signals are sent to my hormones, and a period starts. Cycling long distances seems to trigger my periods ... big, nasty, painful, crampy ones. So bad, on occasion, I've been doubled over by the side of the road in pain. The only thing that helps that situation is painkillers. Fortunately this doesn't happen every time ... just a lot of the time. |
Originally Posted by John_V
(Post 19939886)
Also, having the perfect saddle for you is as important as a correct bike fit.
I don't know if I qualify to be called a long distance rider, but I'm a 10K+/yr rider, this month will be my 8th 1,000 mile month this year, I've done a several centuries (last one in May of this year), and I'll be doing a 220 mile cross state ride (my 4th) next weekend. I purchased a new bike in April and had a Retul fitting done and I experience no pain when riding and little to no discomfort on any of my rides. I recently turned 71. So to answer your questions; "Is it a reasonable expectation for us, as we get older, to ride with absolutely no pain whatsoever?" and "Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to ride any distance, or until the "tank" runs out, without any pain whatsoever?" The answer is "Yes!" As far as the rest, considering the responses on this thread and the multitude of threads in this over fifty sub-forum, I'd say you are the exception to the rule and very fortunate & blessed. Good for you! Keep pedaling!! But as important as bike fit is, I do not believe that is necessarily the answer to every ache and pain. In other words, if we can both ride 30 miles, 40 miles, 50 miles pain free, and do it frequently, then great. We'd all agree we both ride bikes that fit us correctly and well. If one of us starts experiencing neck pain or lower back pain, for example, at mile 60 and by mile 70 it is affecting our ride in some way, I don't necessarily agree that is a product of poor bike fit. It COULD be but I believe poor bike fit would manifest itself in some negative way before that amount of mileage. Having said that, I also acknowledge that bike fit could possibly have a cumulative effect and not show up as adversely affecting the body until you've been in the saddle 3 hours or so. I'm assuming that as it seems a reasonable assumption. I don't know that I've ever heard or read that anywhere. But maybe I'm looking at that wrong and I am in no way a fit expert. I've tweaked and changed things on my bike until I have it relatively comfortable for me. But I can't get much past 70 miles without some significant discomfort and I blame that on my own body's characteristics rather than bike fit. |
Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider
(Post 19939733)
recumbents are not bikes is what i'm taking from this:p
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Pain is your body telling you that you are doing something you shouldnt be doing.
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Anybody who is willing to endure various pain, some severe or debilitating, while cycling but who refuse to consider a viable alternative bike that could end or alleviate that pain based upon their prejudices is simply mentally challenged.
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Originally Posted by WNCGoater
(Post 19941240)
..... As far as the rest, considering the responses on this thread and the multitude of threads in this over fifty sub-forum, I'd say you are the exception to the rule and very fortunate & blessed. Good for you! Keep pedaling!! .......
Since I retired, cycling has become a way of life for me. Every morning I have my breakfast and go out to do a 40-60 mile bike ride. Sometimes, I do more but very seldom do I do less. Cycling is very high on the list of my life's priorities so if it takes a spending some extra time and/or money to resolve an issue that may inadvertently arise, I'm more than willing to do it. One of my riding buddies comes out and rides with me 3 or 4 times a week. He has a lot of bad habits and is always complaining about something hurting him after a ride. His problem is that he's not willing to do anything to change it. In his case, much of his problems would be gone if he loses around 100 pounds. Personally, I think he's riding for the wrong reason. Whatever his reason for riding, if he's not willing to look for and make changes, today's ride will be the same as yesterday's and tomorrow's ride will be the same as today's. |
Originally Posted by Machka
(Post 19940500)
... if you want a century to feel good ... do a double century.
Mostly I agree, except that some folks need to go more slowly, some folks don't have time to ride that much ... some folks need a lot more recovery time .... I think we can all increase our capacities, but patience and persistence are as bad as the discomfort. The thing I would really emphasize would be
Originally Posted by Machka
(Post 19940500)
4) Do core and upper body work ... yes, weights. A strong core and upper body dramatically improves comfort over long distances. It also helps you sit on the bicycle with good posture.
5) Sit on the bicycle with good posture. The saddle is not meant for your full body weight ... only part of it. I couldn't tell you the percentages but quite a bit of my weight, when I'm cycling, is on my feet. This means I sort of perch on my sitbones on the saddle, and a strong core helps me do that. I really notice if I've let my core go a bit. The worst part is, as my core fatigues I naturally put more weight on arms, which beats my weak shoulders, but I can't support myself properly with my legs with my weak stomach and lower back. |
Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 19941513)
Pain is your body telling you that you are doing something you shouldnt be doing.
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Originally Posted by elocs
(Post 19941564)
Anybody who is willing to endure various pain, some severe or debilitating, while cycling but who refuse to consider a viable alternative bike that could end or alleviate that pain based upon their prejudices is simply mentally challenged.
Sorry you cannot accept diamond-frame bikes ... but they are bikes too. And that is what some folks want to ride. What you are saying is, Okay, you can't play tennis ... so don't be a dork, play table tennis. They are no more equivalent than riding a bent is equivalent to riding a diamond frame ... as Certain Bent Riders Constantly Tell Us. As for safety ... how many times will someone tell me "Don't believe your eyes, believe the hype!"? I don't care, I still am not falling for it. I'd love a tadpole trike, but they are less than three feet tall, which is hood height for most cars. I'd say we don't see many accidents with them because A.) very few people ride them and B.) far, far fewer ride them in traffic ... because even a bent rider can be smart enough to realize that riding a vehicle only three feet tall in traffic is risky. Maybe you ride one of the taller bents ... seems so, if your eyes are level with a car driver's. Good for you. But please don't repeat over and over that a vehicle which is invisible in traffic is safe in traffic. it makes people wonder if you have a problem ... or all bent riders. :D |
In the last two years, I've done a lot of concerted effort at increasing my ability to stay on my bike for long periods. My work is paying off. I had back and shoulder and foot pain after an hour, sometimes less. I've had knee pain, but it's been less severe. No one thing has alleviated these problems. There have been many things. Taking longer bike rides, riding faster (to build endurance), lifting weights, seeing a podiatrist, and paying attention to the subtle matters of fit are the five most helpful approaches for me. I can't say what will work for you, but chances are, you can endure more and even incur less pain than you currently do.
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Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 19941513)
Pain is your body telling you that you are doing something you shouldnt be doing.
And my Marine DI back in '76 would holler "Pain is beautiful, bud!" during PT. |
Yes, if you want to ride hard and long, you're going to experience pain, I don't care what kind of bike you ride. It's going to hurt eventually. How long it's going to take before it starts hurting is not, IME, a function of age, but rather of fitness. I don't mean just fitness right now, but lifetime fitness. If you have let yourself go, far enough, and long enough, you're not going to be able to get it back. There will be too much damage. Wasting can be fixed, permanent damage can't. So there's that.
At 73, I have one minor gym injury. Most of the time, I don't notice it. No big deal. Other than that, if I'm fit for the activity, I have no pain other than that my legs hurt if I go hard enough, long enough, then my back, then my shoulders, then my butt. But everyone's do that, even the best pros. Some races, it's the guy who knows best how to suffer who wins. 250 miles with 15,000' of climbing, ridden hard, is going to hurt. So don't let anyone tell you that with x and such, there's no pain. Sure, a century, even a double century, if easy enough and ridden at a moderate pace, say 16 average, shouldn't necessarily hurt if you're fit for it. I've averaged 20 on a flattish double in my late 50's, no pain. So that's your measure. Get fit, bye-bye pain. Train hard, train smart, train consistently, year 'round. Your hands should never go numb. Never is a combination of experience and bike fit. Shoulder and arm pain is just fitness. Easy peasy fix. Try working out. Neck hurting is some fitness, some not using the proper riding position. https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...discovery.html Butt pain is some saddle, some position, some bike fit, some just needing more saddle time. Even after the century mark passes, I usually don't notice that I'm sitting on a saddle. It's not good fortune. It's decades of training, study, experience, and riding. Pick it up to 5000 miles/year and watch your problems disappear. People want to attribute decades of painstaking, continuous hard work by an athlete to "good fortune." Fries my butt. |
Originally Posted by Maelochs
(Post 19942293)
Maybe you ride one of the taller bents ... seems so, if your eyes are level with a car driver's. Good for you. But please don't repeat over and over that a vehicle which is invisible in traffic is safe in traffic. it makes people wonder if you have a problem ... or all bent riders. :D
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Originally Posted by elocs
(Post 19942866)
I never said a word about visibility or safety, but just about comfort and riding pain-free as a matter of course.
Originally Posted by elocs
(Post 19941564)
Anybody who is willing to endure various pain, some severe or debilitating, while cycling but who refuse to consider a viable alternative bike that could end or alleviate that pain based upon their prejudices is simply mentally challenged.
The safety issue is the one and only thing which prevents me from starting to save now for a tadpole trike. it is the one and only issue keeping it from being a "viable alternative." "He was riding absolutely free of pain when he died."
Originally Posted by elocs
(Post 19942866)
But ultimately I avoid traffic as much as possible.
Originally Posted by elocs
(Post 19942866)
I do know that for myself after having back surgery 18 years ago for a herniated disc that I would not be riding a bike today if I hadn't by chance discovered recumbents.
I wish there wasn't such a sharp with us/against us dynamic with recumbents. The recumbent riders could say things like "Recumbents are really comfortable, a little slower uphill, and little dicey in traffic, but supremely enjoyable to ride," diamond-frame riders could say, "Great! It's true, DF bikes hurt more the more you ride, but they are a blast anyway" and we could all get along. Can't we all just get along? :) |
The simple fact of life is that to make any improvement in fitness and strength require a certain degree of discomfort. That leve of discomfort depends on the individual. A small amount of discomfort for one person may seem like excruciating pain for another. We see it time and time again in discussion about saddles.
Then we come to bicycles. People just seem to be afraid to make adjustments to their bicycles after the initial set-up. Fit requires micro-adjustments are it becomes obvious that there are pain niggles. It also does require a bit of research; adjustment should be in millimetres (or 16ths of an inch); and adjustments should be limited to one thing at a time (for example, saddle height only, not saddle height, saddle tilt and handlebar height all at once). |
Originally Posted by Maelochs
(Post 19942281)
Or should be doing more.
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Originally Posted by WNCGoater
(Post 19941228)
Geez... TMI... I hope I never experience that.:twitchy: Being past menopausal age at almost 57 and male at that, I think the odds are slim. But anything's possible:foo:and I've learned to "never say never". :lol: I have a difficult enough time dealing with an 11 year old daughter at my age.:D
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
(Post 19942281)
Or should be doing more.
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
(Post 19942293)
Dude, here I was completely on your side and you say something like this.
Sorry you cannot accept diamond-frame bikes ... but they are bikes too. And that is what some folks want to ride. What you are saying is, Okay, you can't play tennis ... so don't be a dork, play table tennis. They are no more equivalent than riding a bent is equivalent to riding a diamond frame ... as Certain Bent Riders Constantly Tell Us. As for safety ... how many times will someone tell me "Don't believe your eyes, believe the hype!"? I don't care, I still am not falling for it. I'd love a tadpole trike, but they are less than three feet tall, which is hood height for most cars. I'd say we don't see many accidents with them because A.) very few people ride them and B.) far, far fewer ride them in traffic ... because even a bent rider can be smart enough to realize that riding a vehicle only three feet tall in traffic is risky. Maybe you ride one of the taller bents ... seems so, if your eyes are level with a car driver's. Good for you. But please don't repeat over and over that a vehicle which is invisible in traffic is safe in traffic. it makes people wonder if you have a problem ... or all bent riders. :D |
Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 19943049)
Why would you want to damage your body even more********************?
If I ride my bike for an hour and my lower back hurts ... maybe I should ride for an hour every day? If I do a half-hour light workout at the gym and afterwards my muscles are so ... maybe I should be doing that workout every day? Pain can be a sign to stop .... or it can be a sign that some part of the body needs more work. Pretty much all exercise hurts the first time. By your method, everybody should immediately stop exercising. By my method, everyone should continue exercising. Which you choose is up to you. |
Originally Posted by rydabent
(Post 19943059)
You keep repeating that trikes are 3 feet tall. How about the two 7 foot flags I have on my trike???
yeah ... people avoid trikes when they see them ... they avoid hitting pretty much anything they see. That was and remains the issue. |
Originally Posted by Maelochs
(Post 19942893)
if i die while riding it, it is not a "viable alternative," is it?
The safety issue is the one and only thing which prevents me from starting to save now for a tadpole trike. it is the one and only issue keeping it from being a "viable alternative." "He was riding absolutely free of pain when he died." Glad you said this .... and glad you have that option. I would need to load my bike onto my car and drive a couple hours to get free of traffic ... and that's fine I will do that ... when I get paid to do it. Until then .... not enough hours in the day. I am glad you can still enjoy riding. I wish there wasn't such a sharp with us/against us dynamic with recumbents. The recumbent riders could say things like "Recumbents are really comfortable, a little slower uphill, and little dicey in traffic, but supremely enjoyable to ride," diamond-frame riders could say, "Great! It's true, DF bikes hurt more the more you ride, but they are a blast anyway" and we could all get along. Can't we all just get along? :) I am reminded of the story where the guy who goes to the doctor for his pain: "Doc, it hurts when I do this, what can I do?" To which the doctor replies simply: "STOP DOING THAT!" The pain sufferer could then say, "Well doc, it's such a blast doing it". The doc would then say, "I told you what to do to stop the pain, so if you want to keep doing it, stop complaining". Hey, I rode DFs for 40 years before I got bent so I knew what they were about. And I would concede that recumbent riders can be over zealous about their choice of bike because they love it so much and want others to have the same enjoyment. But it is very clear in reading these forums that there is a flat out prejudice against recumbents along with a mission to find any reason to reject them as being inferior to DFs to the point of claiming they are not really bikes at all (I would concede that "trikes" are not "bikes"). DFs are undoubtedly cheaper than bents but I would bet that well over half of those who ride DFs didn't spend more than $200 for them and bought them at a big box store. After recumbents were banned by the UCI in 1938, for 50 years it was like they were hidden away in the attic, out of sight, out of mind. And now that they are out there again their numbers are still small and the scarcity of any product will make it cost more. So I'm not surprised that DFs are so popular because they are relatively inexpensive for the average person and readily available anywhere. But in real life I only talk with people about my recumbent who ask about it because they like it and have never really seen one or if they have, not been able to talk with the rider. But the title of this thread is "Acceptable Pain?" and my comment and response was about pain. Yes, it would be nice if we could all get along, to disagree agreeably because too often I see threads here that devolve into personal pissing contests that go on and on. |
I think it's difficult to differentiate between "pain" and "discomfort" when exercising. It's like asking someone with a tattoo if it hurt. Some people don't mind getting them at all, others pass out as soon as the tattoo gun hits their skin.
I'm 65, and getting back into cycling after a long layoff. I've been gradually increasing my mileage and working on strengthening my leg muscles again. At the end of a ride, I may feel some discomfort - the kind of discomfort you may feel after working muscles that haven't worked that hard in awhile. It's nowhere near debilitating, nothing a good hot shower and a little rest won't take care of. I figure if I'm not a little sore, I haven't exercised hard enough. Pain is another issue. I have an old knee injury that to this day will rear it's ugly head on occasion. If I'm out on a ride (or a walk, climbing stairs, or any other type of exercise) and I feel that *stab* in my knee, I stop - right away - and evaluate my feeling. Sometimes it just means I have to ease up quite a bit to get to where I was going, sometimes it means I grab my cell phone and call my wife to come pick me up in the car. Sometimes something that causes discomfort (bike fit, cleat position) can lead to pain if ignored long enough. That issue can be addressed in various ways. Pain/discomfort due to injury or (let's face it) age can sometimes be helped (if a recumbent alleviates your neck or back pain and allows you to ride, I have zero issues with them) but sometimes it's just a matter of knowing your limits (distance, speed, time on the bike) and staying within them. |
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