Acceptable Pain ?
 

This thread is prompted by an ongoing theme which showed up again in a recent thread, specific to accepting pain is going to be present on a Century ride.

Let me start by addressing the recumbents. I have no problem if you want to ride recumbents. Good for you. I personally do not even consider them as bicycles in the traditional sense, but I don't mean that as an insult. When I, or most people for that matter, think of riding a bike, I think of upright, two wheeled, typical diamond frame bicycle. And further, I see some people around here riding recumbents. Admittedly, they look very cozy and comfortable...and very much even more dangerous than a traditional road or hybrid bike, for no other reason than reduced visibility. Simply no way I would ride in traffic with my uppermost point being about 3 feet above the road. At 6'2" on my large frame road bike, I am at eye level with most motorists. Does that make me more visible? In my mind at least, yes. I'm also not sure how those pedal over some of our significant climbs in this mountainous region I call home. So no, I'm not against recumbents, if you like them, great.

And so on to my point, which is specific to upright, traditional, bicycles. I regularly read about "pain" while riding. I personally experience pain while riding. I suffer arthritis in my neck, have lower back pain, carpal tunnel issues, knee pain, and various & sundry pains on usually a normal daily basis and so why would this not carry over to riding? One or more of these crop up on most rides of any distance. Obviously, pain on bikes, at least in our age group, is very common based on the number of threads addressing various pain issues.

But then I often see a typical response such as...
"Why would anyone ride a bike that causes pain". This response is particularly irritating because it is typically in response to a question about, saddle pain, knee pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, or a myriad of other aches and pains one experiences while riding. I always want to answer that question with...
"Well duh Sherlock, that's the point of the question, no one WANTS to ride a bike that causes pain, that's why they are on here looking for suggestions of eliminating that pain."

And so all this long winded preface to a couple simple questions.

Is it a reasonable expectation for us, as we get older, to ride with absolutely no pain whatsoever?
Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to ride any distance, or until the "tank" runs out, without any pain whatsoever?
I can ride 20 miles, 30 miles, even 40 miles without pain...most days. But when I get into the 55-65 mile days my neck hurts. Usually my butt is getting sore, and I start experiencing hand-arm fatigue and some hand numbness, oftentimes other things start adding to the list.

Some would say my bike doesn't fit. What determines that? If a person can ride 30-40 miles comfortably does their bike fit? If they start experiencing pain at 50-60 miles does their bike not fit? Point is, I have a difficult time believing people are riding Centuries or other long sub-century rides without experiencing any pains. And if they are they should thank God for their good fortune. I just have a hard time believing that is an achievable goal for most of us, or for me, and so I accept that I will have some limitations based on my level of pain tolerance. As long as I know I'm not causing damage, I'll keep going as long as I can.

Dunno. Good questions, though.

I have chronic and occasionally severe neck pain from a damaged C2, courtesy of a driver who t-boned my car in 2001. The other five cracked vertebrae seemed to heal with less residual pain. But the neck always hurts.

For years I lived on a diet of ibuprofen and coffee, hoping to avoid the prescription pain relievers. Now I'm cutting way back on the ibuprofen, after realizing I was taking around 1,000 of 'em a year. Since resuming cycling a couple of years ago, some days I can do without any ibuprofen. Other days -- specifically, this entire week -- I'm taking 400-800mg a day. Current research says NSAIDs interfere with prostaglandins that promote natural pain relief and healing. Good theory. Someone notify my body, quick.

I can manage 20-30 miles on my road bike, usually in a single session with no stops or only a very brief breather after hard (for me) climbs. Beyond that it gets painful. On 40-65 mile rides I drag home the last 10 or so miles and need a couple of days off the bike to recover.

But during those first 20-30 miles, it feels pretty good. Whatever it is the body produces in these conditions -- dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins, mojo -- it helps during that ride and few hours afterward. The problem is those first 20-30 miles always fool me into thinking we can keep going and enjoy another 20-30 miles. Never works out that way. Hence, my oft delayed plan to ride a standard century -- although I've done a few metric centuries.

So until the neck eases up I'm back on the hybrid. Made some changes there. For a year I needed a slight riser bar with a little back sweep. Now I'm back on the flat bar at saddle height. Compared with the road bike, the flat bar hybrid feels like my upright comfort hybrid did in 2015. It's a little slower, catching more breeze on the open rural highways I ride, but I can often ride all day with only some discomfort but no serious pain. And the hybrid encourages me to take it easier, a little slower pace, more frequent rest breaks to stretch.

Yeah, I think about recumbents too. If my neck continues to deteriorate I may have no choice some day. But that day isn't here yet. I prefer the traditional bike for the reasons you mentioned -- higher profile in traffic, better visibility. And while recumbents seem fine on flats and a blast on downhills, so far I haven't seen one that can pass me on hills -- and I'm a slowpoke on hills, usually at the end of the pack in fast groups. While it's not really about speed, I'm uncomfortable crawling uphill at less than 10 mph in traffic. Around 15 mph feels like the sweet spot for comparative safety when being overtaken by vehicles on rural highways and city streets.

Good questions!

Nearly any physical activity that I do results in some amount of discomfort in some body part these days (I'm 56). But not moving results in even more discomfort not to mention a depressed mood from the lack of endorphins.

I'm still pondering how people ride 400K, 600K, and beyond without saddle pain. I'm still trying to find the right mix of saddle and shorts so that the last 25 miles of a 200K aren't miserable.

Yep, stuff hurts. Some muscle and joint fatigue, some old injuries. Collectively it's called 'old age'. Now you can give up and sit in a rocking chair; or you can carry on doing what you like. It'll still hurt and you'll still get to the same end result over time. I choose to do what I want cause a) I'm stubborn; b) it's more fun.

Old age ain't for sissies!

imo your body is acclimated to 20, 30, 40 mile rides because you have done it enough times and your system has adapted

venturing longer is simply a matter of doing it and getting used to it

let me preface by saying I'm no long distance champ and this is merely my theory based on my own riding. Like you regularly ride 25-40 miles with no abnormalities.

If I were to venture longer, I'm guessing there would be an adjustment period (i.e. pain) until I had rode the distance enough times for it to become normal

Are you experiencing actual Pain while riding?

Not to make light of it but you have described some discomfort unless your "hurt neck" is debilitating during or after a ride. A few hours of any moderately athletic activity like cycling, hiking or even a round of golf will cause some discomfort somewhere. Lack of adaption to the activity and less than optimal hardware like poorly fitted boots, the wrong shaft flex in a set of clubs or a poor bike fit won't help any.

Experienced LD riders have long seat time in for endurance, build power in the hills and wind, have iterations of hardware trials to select what contact points work best for them and so have adapted both to the position on the machine and the physical requirements of riding long distances at a right smart pace. There is no substitute for seat time.

Actual pain while riding or after is a Bad Sign and should be addressed as to root cause and treated, discomfort of some type is inevitable in LD cycling. As we say: HTFU. ;)

BTW: Recumbent riders seem to enjoy their machines although the fervent quasi-religious fervor of a very few in evangelical-mode is indeed a bit annoying, cloying and simultaneously silly. Suit yourself and have it.

-Bandera

Bad bike fit can certainly cause painful problems. A perfect bike fit isn't a guarantee you won't have pain problems. For most folks, centuries are at least a little challenging, at least a little longer and a little harder than our normal rides - so you learn to ride in a way that keeps the pain tolerable. If you want to call that discomfort instead of tolerable pain it's OK with me. When I finish a century feeling good... I'm still hurting a little bit. And a new rider ought to expect that pain management is going to be an issue.

+1.


I am currently planning my next self-contained tour--a loop though southern/central ID. I know there will be pain, but the experience will be worth it.

Well now we have introduced a differential that being a difference between pain and discomfort. I'm not sure where that line is drawn other that to clarify, I don't mean pain in the sense of being caused by injury, meaning pain that requires healing over the course of days following a ride. But it CAN mean pain caused by a previous injury or other influence such as arthritis.
And so I guess that would be "discomfort" experienced on a long ride. I have to be careful about posture or my neck hurts (it's hurting right now at this computer) Actually there is some level of pain in my neck almost all the time. Riding long distances just exacerbates it. Same with lower back.
And so, I'm at a stage in life where the pain, discomfort, however you want to categorize it, can cause me to head to the house before I'm out of steam. I haven't ridden a Century since 2015 and right now, I don't think it would be possible for me to ride a Century, even though I've ridden two metrics in the past month.

And so my questions were intended to clarify a couple things to me, one being, SHOULD we expect to experience pain while riding (and at what point), and whether I'm an anomaly because I experience pain, or just "normal" and at my age(57), I just have to expect it. I can live with that, I live with some level of pain every day. I much prefer riding and, pain be damned, just staying active because I know the alternative isn't attractive.
But I do have to wonder though about those who claim no pain, especially on long rides at our ages.

Recumbent bicycles are bicycles. Period. There are all kinds, sizes and shapes of bikes and some of those are recumbent variations.
Dangerous? You have some data showing that people on recumbent bikes are at more risk of death or injury?
I don't think so.
I've put on about 1600 miles so far this year commuting to work (suburban/urban/suburban round trips) and am at eye level with the majority of motorists I encounter. Still alive and kicking. :D
Didn't have major discomfort issues in the several decades of cycling prior to switching to 'bents exclusively a few years ago. I do indeed, though, have less discomfort now than before. But, my legs still get quite tired at times.
(My standard answer to What saddle? used to be WTB Rocket V Race.)

Since I brought up the distinction here's how I perceive it.
Actual Pain is a serious Warning from one's body that injury has occurred (Yeoch!) or is occurring (Ow! Stop That Right Now!). Race crashes resulted in the clear cut Pain of a broken clavicle twice, that now bum shoulder will give a Warning pain of cease and desist that is unmistakable and best heeded.

Neither are the "aches and pains" which I perceive as the usual discomfort of re-adapting to the seat-time for long distances, putting out big power loads to get over grades on the fixed gear or HIIT full out efforts for speed work.

Discomfort is inevitable in long hard cycling efforts, Pain not so much.
Discomfort can be alleviated with the "right" saddle, a "proper" fit and the absolute necessity of putting in the seat-time it takes to physically and mentally adapt to cycling but is just part of the experience.

-Bandera

Which kind of pain? Muscle pain I don't mind much, it goes away after rest and lessens with conditioning. Fatigue, which some people find painful, ignore to the extent possible. Pain in the joints is a warning, which demands a period of recovery. Neurological or skeletal I'd monitor pretty closely and seek medical advice.

If someone tells you, you should be able to ride X miles or Y hours with no pain then they're speaking for themselves, not you are anyone else. If I've been doing 30-40 mile rides then 50-60 is going to end with some discomfort, maybe pain. If I've been doing 60-80 miles then no, no pain. Though it's more about how much time the ride takes. An hour and a half, two, three, whatever it is that you ride frequently you should be OK with, but pushing it a half hour longer you can expect some discomfort or pain.

I suspect it's a difference between threshold, tolerance and differences between debilitating injury, damage and/or illness affecting muscle that can be rehabilitated, and problems affecting joints and connective tissues that are more difficult to resolve.

In many years of nursing experience, and caring for older family members, I've seen many examples of folks who can tolerate an incredible amount of pain from serious injuries and illnesses, and those who can barely tolerate mild discomfort from less serious issues. I'm sure some of it is physiological, but much is psychological.

To sum up, again, I dunno. My pain threshold is pretty high. I'm a bit frustrated by the current situation -- being able to handle 20-30 miles on the road bike, but being miserable beyond that point and needing a couple of days to recover. But I know I was frustrated two years ago when I first resumed cycling by the same discomfort and pain after rides of only 1-3 miles, then 3-10 miles, and so on.

At the same time, I can't be stupid and ignore the neck problem. Some stuff doesn't just go away simply because we ignore it or take enough pain relievers to mask the injury.

Some key quotes from my original post...

I have no problem if you want to ride recumbents

I personally do not even consider them as bicycles in the traditional sense, but I don't mean that as an insult.

I'm not against recumbents, if you like them, great.

And so on to my point, which is specific to upright, traditional, bicycles

Again to clarify, I mean no disrespect to the recumbent riders. I can look at them and imagine they are quite comfy. I'd like to try one, on a MUP. But my own paranoia if you want something to blame it on, prevents me from riding one on the road in traffic. THAT I base on nothing other than my own observations. I cannot site any data to suggest they are more dangerous or more difficult to see. But I would guess that likely there is only one, or less, out there on the road per 100 or more traditional bikes so statistically, they are insignificant and thus it is unlikely data exists on them. Anyway, that is a subject for another thread. The point is, the comfort level of recumbents is irrelevant to me as I don't ride one.
Again, my own personal views are just that, and not intended in any way to insult.

recumbents are not bikes is what i'm taking from this:p

Yeah, I pretty much knew what you meant. And so specifically, I am talking about discomfort. It could be caused by any number of reasons, including previous injury, but yes, discomfort brought about by riding and as time in the saddle increases the discomfort increasing, finally reaching point of affecting the ride. Or at least, the duration of the ride. Personally, I would define discomfort that becomes painful discomfort, as pain. :innocent: I am NOT talking about tired muscles, sore legs, or any other similar discomfort that is to be expected when riding distance or climbing hills.

Just gotta stir the pot, huh?:crash:

I don't take it personally, but my bikes do! :)
Agreed that data on bike safety, accidents, injuries, deaths, etc. is generally almost non-existent. Even more so for recumbents. The numbers I've seen quoted for 'bent sales are somewhere around 1% of total bike sales. Best-guess estimates.

acceptable pain? I call that type 2 fun

I think we can all agree that pain and discomfort are subjective. All I know is I have to get off the bike about five minutes for every hour I ride no matter if it is an easy beach ride or climbing in the mountains. I'm 54 with a bunch of old injuries that become aggravated with fatigue, pressure points and cold weather.

Road cycling helps me to manage those old injuries and keep a level of fitness. Biofreeze is my friend. The question for me is am I intelligently managing my pain in preparation, while cycling and post-ride?

I am thankful to be able to ride with some discomfort and at times pain. My g/f suffers from chronic migraines and does not have the luxury to ride.

Several years ago, I was visiting my FIL in Northwestern Illinois. I took my bike with me and while on a ride I stopped in a small bike shop in a small town along my route. Above the counter was a sign that read "The more you ride, the better you get. The better you get, the more you ride." I think that just about covers a lot of the answers to questions posted on cycling forums.

Bike fit is essential for any type of riding, let alone long distance rides. But having a bike that is your size doesn't mean you have a bike that fits, especially when it comes to road bikes. If you're not dialed in to your bike, you can expect some sort of pain or discomfort somewhere. If you're not sure how to dial your bike so that it's optimal for you, have it done professionally. Wasting weeks or months trying to make adjustments that might make it worse isn't worth the savings of a professional fit. Also, having the perfect saddle for you is as important as a correct bike fit.

I don't know if I qualify to be called a long distance rider, but I'm a 10K+/yr rider, this month will be my 8th 1,000 mile month this year, I've done a several centuries (last one in May of this year), and I'll be doing a 220 mile cross state ride (my 4th) next weekend. I purchased a new bike in April and had a Retul fitting done and I experience no pain when riding and little to no discomfort on any of my rides. I recently turned 71.

So to answer your questions; "Is it a reasonable expectation for us, as we get older, to ride with absolutely no pain whatsoever?" and "Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to ride any distance, or until the "tank" runs out, without any pain whatsoever?" The answer is "Yes!"

Lon would know. ;)

-Bandera

During long hard rides (I'ver never done a long easy ride), a variety of pains come and go. As each one comes on and gets more unbearable, I wonder if I can finish the ride. Then I forget about it or it goes away and before long another pain turns on, in a different part of the body, and I wonder if I can continue to the end. I'm 59 now and the latest long rides of 200-300K were two years ago. I find it interesting that my body can deal with pain on the bike better than it can while sitting at home with achy knees or being awakened throughout the night due to f'ed up shoulders.

So far at least:

I ride short distances (<50 miles or little or no climbing) with pretty much no pain at all.

Longer distances? Nope! I don't think it was possible when we were in our 20s. My biggest issues on long difficult rides is hotfoot (mitigated by wider, quality shoes and inserts) and sorebutt (mitigated by moving around). But that is to be expected on climbfests of 100 miles or more.

Minimal pain. :)

1) Ensure that your bicycle is set up correctly. There are measuring sites that will help you with this, and riding lots will also help you determine what 'correctly' is.

2) Ensure that you have a good saddle of the correct width. Too wide and there's friction and incorrect leg motion. Too narrow and your sitbones won't be planted on the saddle comfortably. A harder saddle is better because you can sit on your sitbones. A softer saddle creates too much friction ... although if you're only ever doing short rides it might be OK.

3) Ensure you've got good shorts. If you go with padded shorts, make sure the padding covers your sitbones. Also make sure that the elastic around your thighs is snug, but not too tight.

4) Do core and upper body work ... yes, weights. A strong core and upper body dramatically improves comfort over long distances. It also helps you sit on the bicycle with good posture.

5) Sit on the bicycle with good posture. The saddle is not meant for your full body weight ... only part of it. I couldn't tell you the percentages but quite a bit of my weight, when I'm cycling, is on my feet. This means I sort of perch on my sitbones on the saddle, and a strong core helps me do that. I really notice if I've let my core go a bit.

6) Get fit and ride lots. If you're only doing one century a year, it is going to hurt. Do many of them. Do a century a month. And if you want a century to feel good ... do a double century. Then do a century a few weeks later. All of a sudden that century is just another training ride.

7) Lose weight. The lighter I am, the more comfortable I am on the bicycle. Within reason, of course ... don't drop to "underweight".

8) And of course you can do things like stretching, moving around on the bicycle, and so on to loosen things off. For example, I found that I was getting a stiff neck on centuries and other longer rides. Then I realised that I was focusing on the road in front of me for hours on end. Looking around at the scenery once in a while made a big difference. And I'll usually try to go through a stretching routine about once an hour or so.

9) I have also found that a good mental attitude helps a lot. If I'm feeling "dark" about the ride, all sorts of weird aches and pains will start up. But if I'm enjoying myself, I'm usually OK. And one of the ways to ensure that my mood is good is to eat and drink properly while riding. Any time I start feeling achy or irritable or "dark" ... it's time to eat.


Now I will add that there is one exception to all of the above ... there is one situation I can't do much about. For whatever reason my body seems to know when I am about to do a long ride, signals are sent to my hormones, and a period starts. Cycling long distances seems to trigger my periods ... big, nasty, painful, crampy ones. So bad, on occasion, I've been doubled over by the side of the road in pain. The only thing that helps that situation is painkillers. Fortunately this doesn't happen every time ... just a lot of the time.